Do you think Sabbath laws, and law in general are???

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Even Paul says we do not make void the law by faith! We uphold the law!

So which of Paul's words do we believe?

The ones that agree with God the Son!

Actually all of Paul's words do agree with God the Son, if they were translated and interpreted correctly.

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Even Paul says we do not make void the law by faith! We uphold the law!

So which of Paul's words do we believe?

The ones that agree with God the Son!

Actually all of Paul's words do agree with God the Son, if they were translated and interpreted correctly.

"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
"For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13

"So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)." - James 2:17

"For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead." - James 2:26

"But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets." - Romans 3:21

"For Christ is the end of the Law as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him." - Romans 10:4

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Scripture says keeping the law as a means of righteousness (salvation, self-righteousness) is what Christ put an end to, not keeping the law for the love of God and holy living.

Jesus Himself tells us repeatedly to continue keeping the law, but do it in faith, love, and grace because "love God and love man" is a summation of all the law, not a replacement.

"All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:40, Matthew 22:37-39

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
"So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)." - James 2:17

"For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead." - James 2:26

"But now the righteousness of God has been revealed independently and altogether apart from the Law, although actually it is attested by the Law and the Prophets." - Romans 3:21

"For Christ is the end of the Law as the means of righteousness (right relationship to God) for everyone who trusts in and adheres to and relies on Him." - Romans 10:4

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31

Scripture says keeping the law as a means of righteousness (salvation, self-righteousness) is what Christ put an end to, not keeping the law for the love of God and holy living.

Jesus Himself tells us repeatedly to continue keeping the law, but do it in faith, love, and grace because the "love God and love man" is a summation of all the law, not a replacement.

"All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:40, Matthew 22:37-39

So Paul is lying is what you are saying?

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
So Paul is lying is what you are saying?

Nope! Not at all.

Jesus puts law and grace together.

So does Paul.

Legalists want to throw out grace.

Grace alone people want to throw out the law.

Let's correctly interpret Paul in the light of how Jesus puts law and grace together.

Let's assume Paul agrees with Jesus and rework our interpretations accordingly.

disciple1 · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Nope! Not at all.

Jesus puts law and grace together.

So does Paul.

Legalists want to throw out grace.

Grace alone people want to throw out the law.

Let's correctly interpret Paul in the light of how Jesus puts law and grace together.

Let's assume Paul agrees with Jesus and rework our interpretations accordingly.

I think this bible says it best.
Galatians 2:18 (CJB) Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.
complete jewish bible

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Nope! Not at all.

Jesus puts law and grace together.

So does Paul.

Legalists want to throw out grace.

Grace alone people want to throw out the law.

Let's correctly interpret Paul in the light of how Jesus puts law and grace together.

Let's assume Paul agrees with Jesus and rework our interpretations accordingly.

What do you assume the correct soteriological interpretation is regarding that there is only a gate into God's kingdom Mt. 7:13-14? And the relevance of Rom. 2:13 to that gate?

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

disciple1 said:
I think this bible says it best.
Galatians 2:18 (CJB) Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.
complete jewish bible

So what are you asserting? Rom. 2:13 is false?

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

disciple1 said:
I think this bible says it best.
Galatians 2:18 (CJB) Indeed, if I build up again the legalistic bondage which I destroyed, I really do make myself a transgressor.
complete jewish bible

IMO, Jesus God the Son, says it best.

JESUS COMMANDS LAWKEEPING
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:15, John 14:10

JESUS WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." - Matthew 13:41

"Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23:28

"Jesus found the man at the Temple [area] and said to him, “See, you are well now. ·Stop sinning.” " - John 5:14

"Jesus said, “I also don’t ·judge you guilty [condemn you]. ·You may go now, but don’t sin anymore." " - John 8:11

JESUS PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"Then Jesus said to them, “So every ·teacher of the law [scribe] who has ·been taught about [become a disciple of] the kingdom of heaven is like the ·owner [head] of a house. He brings out both new things and old things ·he has saved [from his treasure/storeroom; knowledge of the Old Testament provides insight into Jesus’ “new” message of the kingdom of God].” " - Matthew 13:52

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). 38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 40 All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:37-40

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
What do you assume the correct soteriological interpretation is regarding that there is only a gate into God's kingdom Mt. 7:13-14? And the relevance of Rom. 2:13 to that gate?

Use the law properly, not for salvation but for holy living.

disciple1 · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
What do you assume the correct soteriological interpretation is regarding that there is only a gate into God's kingdom Mt. 7:13-14? And the relevance of Rom. 2:13 to that gate?

Jesus was under the law, he set us free.
Look at Romans chapter 10 verse 4
Christ is the end of the law.

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
IMO, Jesus God the Son, says it best.

JESUS COMMANDS LAWKEEPING
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:15, John 14:10

JESUS WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." - Matthew 13:41

"Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23:28

"Jesus found the man at the Temple [area] and said to him, “See, you are well now. ·Stop sinning.” " - John 5:14

"Jesus said, “I also don’t ·judge you guilty [condemn you]. ·You may go now, but don’t sin anymore." " - John 8:11

JESUS PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"Then Jesus said to them, “So every ·teacher of the law [scribe] who has ·been taught about [become a disciple of] the kingdom of heaven is like the ·owner [head] of a house. He brings out both new things and old things ·he has saved [from his treasure/storeroom; knowledge of the Old Testament provides insight into Jesus’ “new” message of the kingdom of God].” " - Matthew 13:52

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). 38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 40
All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:37-40

I think I asked for an interpretation from you didn't I?

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

disciple1 said:
Jesus was under the law, he set us free.
Look at Romans chapter 10 verse 4
Christ is the end of the law.

For righteousness only.

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
I think I asked for an interpretation from you didn't I?

Use the law properly, not for salvation but for holy living.

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

disciple1 said:
Jesus was under the law, he set us free.
Look at Romans chapter 10 verse 4
Christ is the end of the law.

So then "For it is not those who hear law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13 is a statement made by an ignoramus?

Theodore A. Jones · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Use the law properly, not for salvation but for holy living.

"For it is not those who (just) hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Thought you said a few minutes ago that Paul isn't lying and now you say he is?

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Grace and Law should fit together as Jesus said. We shouldn't throw out either one. It was a huge part of the OT and it's still the mainstay of the NT.

GRACE IN THE OT
Grace has ALWAYS been a part of this ETERNAL covenant that started with Abraham, passed down to his descendants through Moses, and is ratified in it's final form through Jesus Christ. There's too many scriptures on God's grace in the OT to list them all, but note the book of Psalms is the Songbook for the Israelites. It's filled with words about God's mercy, faithfulness, loving kindness, etc.

Psalms 32:2, Psalms 51:10, Psalms 109:26, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezra 9:9, Nehemiah 9:31-32, Nehemiah 13:22, Psalms 5:7, Psalms 23:6, Psalms 33:18, Psalms 33:22, Psalms 36:5, Psalms 52:8, Psalms 59:17, Psalms 86:15, Psalms 98:3, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 105:8, Psalms 136, Proverbs 28:13, Isaiah 14:1, Isaiah 54:8-10, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 31:20, Ezekiel 39:25, Daniel 9:9, Hosea 1:7-8, Micah 7:18-20, Zechariah 1:16, Zechariah 10:6

GRACE AND TRUTH OT AND NT
Please note how GRACE and TRUTH have also been a huge part of the OC. John 1:14, John 1:17, Colossians 1:6, 2 John 1:3, Genesis 24:27, 2 Samuel 15:20, Proverbs 3:3, Proverbs 16:6, Micah 7:20

Truthfrees · Sep 27, 2015

Theodore A. Jones said:
"For it is not those who (just) hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who actually obey the law who will be declared righteous." Rom. 2:13
Thought you said a few minutes ago that Paul isn't lying and now you say he is?

Nope, not at all.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Is it because you're trying to throw out grace?

I'm not really understanding where you're coming from on this issue.

Please make clear what your position is on grace and law blended together in the OT and still now in the NT.

disciple1 · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
For righteousness only.[/QUOT

Galatians chapter 4 verse 21-31
Tell me you who want to be under the law, are you not aware of what the law says? For it is written that Abraham had two sons,one by the slave woman and the other by the free woman. His son by the slave woman was born in the ordinary way; but his son by the free woman was born as the result of a promise.
These things may be taken figuratively, for the women represent two covenants. One covenant is from Mount Sinai and bears children who are to be slaves: This is Hagar. now Hagar stands for Mount Sinai in Arabia and corresponds to the present city of Jerusalem, because she is in slavery with her children. But the Jerusalem that is above is free, and she is our mother. For it is written: "be glad, O barren woman, who bears no children; break forth and cry aloud, you who have no labor pains; because more are the children of the desolate woman than of her who has a husband. Now you, brothers, like Isaac, are children of promise. At that time the son born in the ordinary way persecuted the son born by the power of the Spirit. It is the same now. But what does the Scripture say? Get rid of the slave woman and her son, for the slave woman's son will never share in the inheritance with the free woman's son Therefore, brothers, we are not children of the slave woman, but of the free woman.

Poster0 · Sep 27, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Nope, not at all.

I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying.

Is it because you're trying to throw out grace?

I'm not really understanding where you're coming from on this issue.

Please make clear what your position is on grace and law blended together in the OT and still now in the NT.

Don't waste your breath in this particular forum, or on any debate forum for that matter.. Most people here on this forum either believe in throwing out all commandments altogether, or they believe in keeping old testament Law. Some don't believe in living by any commandments at all, even the ones that the apostles gave us, and others believe in keeping a lot of OT testament commands that the apostles never gave us. You will not find any rational discussion here. Just my opinion.

Do you think Sabbath laws, and law in general are???

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