Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

thankfulttt said:

Yes you are correct, but in the same sense are you not saying Job followed Daniel?

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How is that?

I do see a comparison of characters...

Noah had three companions;

Job had three companions;

Daniel had three companions;

We know that both Noah and Daniel marked a new era in the history of man, and both have overtones of the birthright blessing;

King Nebuchadnezer was a King of kings given dominion over the fish of the sea, fowl of the air, etc.

Noah was told to be fruitful and multiply and replenish the earth;

The book of Job is thought to be written by Moshé, that plus the years Job lived, I therefore see the time period of Israel-Esau as best fitting Job's life time;

thankfulttt said:

In your multiplicity of words you have not answered how Job could remain righteous while charging God foolishly.

You have questioned my original stance on Job's righteousness. My stance has never changed. Job was standing in his own righteousness, which was without knowledge. Job's judgment was therefore faulty. Like the Bible says, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is only God's righteousness that is good. Job needed to be clothed in God's righteousness in order to obtain salvation.

Job's own words indicate that he decided who was good and who was evil, who lived, or who died.

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

Job 30:2 Yea, whereto might the strength of their hands profit me, in whom old age was perished?

Just as Paul's righteousness was corrupt when he had Christians stoned, so similarly did Job according to his own mouth.


In Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.

All the English translations say pretty much the same thing. Elihu desired that Job's trials go on for ever.

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Who ever said Job remained righteous? Show me! Not one of us ever made such a statement, WOW!

All of the English translations???
For starters, I'm reading from the Actual Word of Elohym, and you are reading from a translation that breaks scriptural protocol, which Elohym strictly forbids;

In Daniel we are told that knowledge will increase till the end, meaning poor translations, interpretations, etc., will improve!

thankfulttt said:

Do you have scripture to back up this statement? Does a whale "behold all high things" as Satan? (Job 1:6) Is a whale "king over all the children of pride" as Satan? (Job 41:34)

Leviathan is called a serpent and a dragon in Isaiah 27:1, and not a whale. Satan is called a dragon and serpent in Revelation 12:9 and Revelation 20:2.

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The same biblical hebrew word for 'Whale' תנה (tanah), is the same word for 'Dragon' תנה (tanah);

Ea'huah asked Jeremiah, what he saw, he replied שקד (shaked) an almond tree, and Ea'huah said you have seen correctly, for I will שקד (shakade) expedite the performance of my word.

The example which Ea'huah provides is the example we should follow, i.e., the punctuation of a word does not limit the applicable meanings ascribed to that word;

Save yourself some embarassment, instead of assuming, or leaning upon your limited understanding, ask, don't make bold ascertations that can be easily swatted like a fly!

"That whosoever blesses themself in the earth shall bless themself in the true Elohym; and whosoever swears by the earth shall swear by the true Elohym...." [Isaiah 65:16]

According to scripture, What is שמים Heaven?

Is it not the expanded water (gas) from the sea that forms the Air in our Atmosphere, which we refer to as Sky, where the birds fly, tree branches sway, and mountains climb?

If not, then we are not reading from the same book!

If so, then take an aerial view of our planet and atmosphere, and tell me, How many Rocks that are also a Consuming fire do you see sitting upon Ea'huah Elohym's throne?

Why do you think Heaven and Earth can not flee from the Face of the One who sits upon the Throne?

Because Heaven is the Throne (Isaiah 66:1), and The only Rock & Consuming Fire that sits in the midst of it is Earth, even He can not escape Him self!

You know a tree by the fruit it bears (especially in it's own image & likness), we (among other things) are made of clay, and He is our Father who created us in the image and likeness of Him self, not another, then named us Adam the masculine form for the word Adamah lit. Earth.

Y'shua said that there would be one sign for the Wicked & Adulterous generation that resurrects to receive their judgement when he returns in the Glory of his Father;

The sign of Yownah! Yet in Revelations there appears to be two Great signs, holding fast to what Y'shua said, one must assume that the two signs are both one in the same;

We know it pertains to the sign of Yownah, because Y'shua said, One sign, plus there is a תנה (tanah) whale-dragon in the story;

In the sign of Yownah the whale = the Earth, and in Revelations, the beast that was, BUT IS NOT, happens to have seven heads that are actually mountains, as in seven continents rising out of the Deep sea = abyss, צול Sheol.

According to Isaiah 66 the Earth is the woman with child, and in Rev. 12:1 the woman is clothed-arrayed-in alignment with the sun, and the moon at her feet, and upon her head is a crown of 12 stars;

According to Genesis the crown of 12 stars represents Israel, therefore one need but look to the antipod of Israel to know where this eclipse will occur;

Away from the face of the serpent, no snakes here in הוהי Hawaii, the place called by His name יהוה Ea'huah.

If you had the faith of a mustard seed you would be able to say unto this Mountain, Be you cast into the sea, and it would be done;

Rev. 8:08 ...a Great Mountain burning with fire is cast into the sea;

In the 808 area code there is a Great Mountain burning with Fire (a Volcano) casting it's molten rock into the sea;

What will the sea become, when we pick up Yownah and cast him into the sea?

'Calm' is the meaning of 'Pacific'

Why two contrasting signs? Because they called the Master of the house Beelzebub/Satan, and Y'shua said, that therefore is how He would appear unto them.

In Zechariah He says, I will be a wall-ring of Fire about her, and the Glory in the midst (of her); and Hawaii is the only set of islands in the ring of fire with the same glorious fire active on Mauna Loa.

His Glory mentioned in exodus is a Glorious Fire, which came out of the Mountain and spoke to the children of Israel, saying, I am the Divine Author from above, and below.

"Did ever people hear the voice of the Divine Author speaking out of the midst of the fire, as you have heard, and live?

Unto you it was shown, that you might know that Ea'huah (Existence) he is the Divine Author; there is no one else beside him.

Out of heaven he made you to hear his voice, that he might instruct you; and upon earth he showed you his great fire; and you heard his words out of the midst of the fire.

Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that Ea'huah (existence) he is the Divine Author in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is no one else." [Deuteronomy 4:33, 35-36, & 39]

The Hawaiians are a people antipod to where these words were spoken, and yes they proclaim to have heard the Voice of Peleh lit. Secret, Wonder, Miracle, Mystery, etc.

Just as Hawaii is Ea'huah backwards, so is Pla Alph(a) backwards, [Alpha is spelled אלף ALPh in Heb.].

thankfulttt said:

I was speaking of the chronological order.

Job and Elihu are most often considered the writer of the book. I favor Elihu since he writes in the first person. Also we are given only Elihu's identity. One of the favorite names for God in the book of Job can only be found two times in all of Moses' books.

Job was given everything double. Two times seventy is a hundred and forty. Jehoiada lived to be a hundred and thirty in the ninth Century BC.

Almost every one says that the writing is late, occurring anywhere between the seventh and fourth Century BC. In doing a word search this becomes evident.

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I'm pleased to see somethings do change, but if you look in a dictionary or encyclypedia 20 years old or so, they all supposed Job to be an antideluvian, so even that is relatively a new christian concept;

But lets put some of what he said she said aside and look at some real evidence;

"...being old and full of days..." is a term that reflects the sentax of a peculiar dispensation, and is matched by only one other verse in the book of Genesis;

"After this lived Job an hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations.

So Job died, being old and full of days." [Job 42:16-17]

"And the days of Isaac were an hundred and fourscore (180) years.

And Isaac gave up the ghost, and died, and was gathered unto his people, being old and full of days: and his sons Esau and Jacob buried him." [Genesis 35:28-29]

The verbage begins to change noticably after this;

"But Jehoiada waxed old, and was full of days when he died; an hundred and thirty years old was he when he died." [2nd Chronicles 24:15]

Now consider how there were only seven cattle on Noah's ark, how long would it take for the numbers to increase to reach the numbers of Job's cattle, the wealthiest man in the East?

"And Solomon offered a sacrifice of peace offerings, which he offered unto Ea'huah, and twenty two thousand oxen, and an hundred and twenty thousand sheep. So the king and all the children of Israel dedicated the house of Ea'huah." [1st Kings 8:63]

By the time we reach the days of Solomon the numbers of cattle greatly dwarf the numbers of Solomon who mind you probably sacrificed only a fraction of what he owned.

These numbers suggest Job pre existed many years before Solomon.

Now consider Eliphaz of Timan...

"And the days of Terah were two hundred and five years: and Terah died in Haran." [Genesis 11:32]

'Terah of Haran' is a case where a father resides in a town (erected, and) named after one's own son, this is how I see 'Eliphaz the Temanite' which lit. means 'Eliphaz of Teman';

Eliphaz of Teman is the first born son of Esau, born of Adah (a daughter of Heth), this is a difficult link to refute;

Esau also has a great grandson by the name of יובב [YWBB], Job is איוב [AYWB], the second 'B' in יובב may easily render, 'Jobb', back then spelling was not formalized, and the א [A] in Job is easily absorbed, just as we can see the difference in 'AYWB' and 'Yowb-Job'.

At first glimpse, the context would seem to make more sense if we were to see Eliphaz addressing Job(ab), rather than Esau, yet I'm still not so easily convinced;

Notwithstanding, I can see this Jobab as one who was named in honor of Job, rather than being the Job in question.

Esau had seven dukes who were not initially referrenced, and are yet seemingly replaced by seven other dukes;

All but seven of Esau's sons are initially mentioned all at once with no respect as to when any of them were actually born;

Because Eliphaz was the first born of Adah the daughter of Heth, whom Esau discovered displeased his parents, it is likely that Esau dealt with Eliphaz in a similar fashion as his grand father Abraham dealt with Ishmael;

אליהו Elihu is a contraction of the name and title of 'Ea'huah (is) Elohym', however Job requested that his book be written by his adversary, that would be Elihu, prior to his confession;

But after his confession, his realized enemy would result in an autobiography.


Considering the time frame, being just prior to Moshé receiving the Toruth (scriptures), and Esau being Edom-Adom Mankind who forsook his birthright....his request to have a book written is undoubtedly the request to have the verbal Word of Elohym put into writting;

thankfulttt said:

There are two kinds of righteousness, God's righteousness and man's righteousness. In reference to Job which one are you referring to?

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That's not how Y'shua-the word of Elohym defines righteousness.

" ...our ability to assign an appropriate reason is our ability to fulfill any and all forms of righteousness." Is what Y'shua told John.

Righteousness is an 'Appropriate Justification' according to biblical context, and is the direct opposite of רשע (r'shau), commonly translated, 'Wicked(ness)';

If a man does not make the Righteousness-Justification (Cause, Purpose, and Reason) of Ea'huah his own (Cause, Purpose, and Reason), then his righteousness is not righteous but wicked(ness), and to refer to it as righteous when it is not would be inappropriate, thus wicked;

Ergo, When Ea'huah referred to Job as Righteous, it was from His own perspective that he gave this estimation, and then He defined the perimeters that made it so;

Of course the exception to that rule is, Ea'huah Elohym has exhibited the ability to express sarcasm, and mocking ridicule;

Just as I see the context in which you discern 'righteousness' i.e. a man being able to have righteousness aside from Ea'huah Elohym, that's the kind of material good comedians are always looking for.

thankfulttt said:

Unless you have the original autographs you are reading from a copy of perhaps another copy, and perhaps of another copy.

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You act like your saying something Righteous! What Divine Cause, Purpose, or Reason are you drawing from to find any value in these words?

Is there something wrong with making a copy of the Toruth, which we as Kings and Priests are instructed to do?

At what point and time does anyone equate a translation with a Copy?

Are you Leary of the Copies made over the milleniums, from which all translations have their rooting?

The Word of Righteousness clearly informs us to, permit all matters to be established by the testimony of two, or three witnesses.

The Dead sea scrolls, the Septuagint, and the Masoretic texts, all confirm the handwritten Copies as being Authentic, and Genuine replications of texts existing prior to that of John the Baptist and Y'shua;

Yet, to undermined the Sacred texts from which all translations come, is an attempt to undermined the faith founded upon the scriptures!

In Exodus Elohym places a precedent of the verbal pronunciation over the written spelling of a word, and with His own Hand writes down the ten commandments according to the Native Hebrew Tongue, which He also claims to be His (choice) of words (verbage);

"And Ea'huah spoke unto you out of the midst of the fire: you heard the voice of the words, but saw no similitude (writting); only you heard a voice.

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and He (Himself) wrote them upon two tables of stone." [Deuteronomy 4:12-13]

"And he said, Hear now my words: If there be a prophet among you, I Ea'huah will make myself known unto him in a vision, and will speak unto him in a dream.

My servant Moshé is not so, who is faithful in all mine house.

With him will I speak mouth to mouth, even apparently, and not in dark speeches; and the similitude (handwritting) of Ea'huah shall he behold: wherefore then were you not afraid to speak against my servant Moshé?" [Numbers 12:6-8]

Moshé read the contents of the book, there was no printing, and distributing copies at this time, only one book, and only one was honored to look upon it.

In the following verse Y'shua is pretty much saying, you can not comprehend what he is saying until you first have the ability to comprehend what Moshé wrote;

"For had you believed Moshé, you would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

But if you do not believe, (trust, and rely on) his writings, how shall you believe (trust, and rely on) my words?" [John 5:46-47]

Here heaven holds us responsible to know the writtings of the Toruth, (not a translation of the Toruth), because the words of this verse facilitate both the actual writings them selves, and the contents therein, which Ea'huah instructed to be recorded, taught, and rehearsed,

Translations often fail to capture what was written in the native text, why would someone want to rely on the fallacies, of fallible men?

If you were to leave instructions with your eldest children pertaining to having the charge of your household while you take a far journey;

When you discover contraversy arises, and your instructions are not being followed, you then take the anointing which you gave to the elders, and distrbute it unto everyone in your household, and give each one their own personal hotline, to call for any clarifications that may be needed;

When you return from your journey, and one of your children offers as an excuse for their ignorance, a finger pointing at another sibling, saying, But he said....

What is your response going to be?

We should consider the Native tongue of the scriptures as the Highest written Authority, for it also is the Place where His actual Name is recorded, and from thence comes any, or all translations;

If you claim to be one who has taken hold of the New Covenant, then you are now both a King and a Priest;

"And has made us unto our Elohym kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." [Revelation 5:10]

"And it shall be, when he sits upon the throne of his kingdom, that he shall write him a copy of this Toruth in a book out of that which is before the priests the Levites:

And it shall be with him, and he shall read therein all the days of his life: that he may learn the inststuctions Ea'huah his Elohey, to keep all the words of this Toruth, and these statutes, to do them:

That his heart be not lifted up above his brethren, and that he turn not aside from the commandment, to the right hand, or to the left: to the end that he may prolong his days in his kingdom, he, and his children, in the midst of Israel." [Deuteronomy 17:18-20]

"....They have Moshé and the prophets; let them hear them....If they hear not Moshé, and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead." [Luke 16:29 & 31]

Every King is instructed to record his own copy of the Toruth (scriptures), (and the Testimonies of the Disciples), and thus we are Scribes of the Kingdom, and a Priestly Nation whose Righteousness only needs to Exceed that of a Scribe, and a Pharisee;

"All this, said David, Ea'huah has made me to understand in writing by his hand upon me, even all the works of this pattern." [1st Chronicles 28:19]

'Exceed' begins when one meets, and surpasses! Not stops short, circumvents, finds, or makes a Way of their own! That is what you have been trying to emphasize!

"....Therefore every Scribe who is instructed in the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, who brings forth out of his 'Treasure' [Grk. lit. theasaurus] things new [testament], and old [testament]." [Matthew 13:52]

Thus Do not Be Lazy, circumcize the denominational foreskin which suggests, '...this is all you need to know...', and corrupts truth by saying, 'If they do not interpret the word as we do their wrong'.

The translations are an open invitation to approach unto the actual Word of Elohym, stop scrutinizing over the invitation, and come scrutinize His Word.

For 'Yeshua', He is the Toruth/Scriptures/Word of Elohym that many think they can afford to pick and choose from, (while others seek to do away with it), instead of realizing this is the Word of Elohym, not the Word of a Man that we are dealing with, He is our Righteousness!

When a pertinent word of Elohym is presented, acknowledge it, forget that you are addressing a man and know that you are addressing the Divine Word of Elohym, without Hype, or Reproach!

Don't just step over, or side step a scriptural referrence as if it was the word of a man, adress it as if it were more important than the person through whom it came.

And when you respond, respond as if you are aware that our miss representation of His word is more condemnable than any other crime, this is what I see most of Us overlooking.

Even if I was the most important individual born of a woman, yet would I consider the worst living-dead criminal to be more important than myself!

Try picking up your cross, and following His Voice, His Word, not our own!