Why is homosexuality the one subject that may be too hot to handle?

circuitrider

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Do you all have any thoughts as to why homosexuality is the one topic that where the discussion is so contentious that we are voting on if we can talk about it or not?

There are a lot of hot button social issues that we also may disagree on such as abortion, gun control/rights, immigration, euthanasia, stem cell research, issues related to welfare and poverty, war and peace, etc. But for some reason this one issue is the only one that some forums here may decide is too hot to handle.

What do you think?
 

BryanW92

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Do you all have any thoughts as to why homosexuality is the one topic that where the discussion is so contentious that we are voting on if we can talk about it or not?

There are a lot of hot button social issues that we also may disagree on such as abortion, gun control/rights, immigration, euthanasia, stem cell research, issues related to welfare and poverty, war and peace, etc. But for some reason this one issue is the only one that some forums here may decide is too hot to handle.

What do you think?

Because the other topics aren't ripping denominations apart. It is the most divisive thing in the American church today. There is no common ground or compromise that will satisfy both sides (or even dissatisfy both sides equally).
 
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JCFantasy23

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It's not a hot topic to me, but a lot of Christians instantly jump on the defensive, all out war and insults mode. It would be nice to think that Christians could talk about - and even debate - the important issues and topics of the day together without it becoming war amongst them. It's scary to censor discussion from Christians even if they don't think they can get along discussing it, though, which is why I'm for allowing the discussion. Nothing to be threatened by.

I do get that some people are just tired about talking about it, that's a different thing and I can see their point.
 
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circuitrider

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What both of you have said is true. But I'm thinking there is something deeper underlying why this particular issue is more controversial than the rest. You've both shared some of the implications of that level of controversy. But why this topic and not another topic?

My own suspicion is that it has something to do with western views of sex and sexuality in general and not just this topic.

I'd love to see some research as to why this one topic, as Bryan as said, is dividing denominations. Why this? Frankly there aren't nearly as many scriptures that related to the discussion as many others that we could and do disagree on.
 
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JCFantasy23

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I think - as you said - it's an unhealthy view of sexuality and sex stigma, so that any topic regarding it is hard to discuss for Christian groups. The puritanical frowning on it Christianity hasn't been able to shake since. At least we've stopped sending women to insane asylums for healthy, normal responses, but we still have a way to go. Sexuality topics get people heated more than anything, it seems, morally outraged and they like to focus on these types of discussions/debates more.
 
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Celticflower

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People in my Mom's generation didn't talk much about sex. My generation did, but with a nod and a wink - never anything in depth. And gay male friends were pretty normal. My kids (young adults) have friends throughout the LGBTQ spectrum and have no problems discussing anything. Why the topic is so divisive is beyond my understanding. But maybe that is the answer - because it is so far beyond the understanding of many straight individuals, opinions are formed out of fear and misinformation. And these opinions become a shield against changes in society. Maybe???
 
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circuitrider

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People in my Mom's generation didn't talk much about sex. My generation did, but with a nod and a wink - never anything in depth. And gay male friends were pretty normal. My kids (young adults) have friends throughout the LGBTQ spectrum and have no problems discussing anything. Why the topic is so divisive is beyond my understanding. But maybe that is the answer - because it is so far beyond the understanding of many straight individuals, opinions are formed out of fear and misinformation. And these opinions become a shield against changes in society. Maybe???

Frankly Celticflower I think this is also a generational thing. Your kids sound like mine. My daughter has a lot of friends in the LGBTQ community (actually as do I). Frankly the Church as a whole is even behind in the conversation and has kept up even with latest discussions in sexual ethics.

Also the decisions about sexuality will be a generational thing. Our children and grandchildren will just wait for us to die or pass on the leadership to them and then they will take most the Christian denominations in a fully inclusive direction.
 
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BryanW92

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I'd love to see some research as to why this one topic, as Bryan as said, is dividing denominations. Why this? Frankly there aren't nearly as many scriptures that related to the discussion as many others that we could and do disagree on.

That's the problem. Everyone comes down on one side of the issue. Even if you aren't 100% on one side or 100% on the other, there is that dividing line down the middle that requires everyone to choose a side. If research were done, it would be skewed towards the researchers' view.

Here's the problem:

On one side, they say "It is a sin. It is an unforgivable sin, worse than all other sins." And that totally ignores the work of Christ on the cross to pardon us for all of our sins, even the ones we haven't committed yet.

On the other side, they say, "It is nature. It is the way they were designed from birth. That can't be a sin." And that totally discounts the sinful nature of man. We are all sinners, born that way. It states that any sin that seems natural to Natural Man is not really a sin.

My pastors* say that Romans 1:26-28 means one thing. You say it means something totally opposite. Their education and credentials are probably very similar to yours. So, we can't even read scripture and decide. *That's my PCA pastor and my pastor from the Methodist Church I left last year.

We can agree to disagree at that point and dig in.

But then we get into lawsuits over cakes, B&Bs, and photographers; Sunday school teachers and people in the pulpit who are either unrepentant sinners or think that anything that is natural can't be a sin. That becomes No Man's Land--the uninhabitable area between the trenches.

At this point the law permits gays to do just about everything they need to have equality and civil rights, so perhaps retreating back into our trenches for a while is the wisest path to take. I'd like to see how things are when it settles down and everyone stop pushing for "change".
 
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circuitrider

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Bryan, I don't think it has to be that way. I would like to see the UMC allow each church and each pastor to make their own decisions on this issue rather than insist that we all have to agree one way or another.

Other denominations make that option available. I don't see why we shouldn't be able to agree to disagree.

Also, just so you are aware, I know no one who is UMC who believes that being homosexual is an unforgivable sin even if they believe it is a sin. The idea of an unforgivable sin isn't UMC theology.
 
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hedrick

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Issues involving ordination are inherently divisive. Either we ordain women, gays, etc, or we don’t. There’s no compromise.

But still, you’re right that this seems different from other questions. On other issues, we’d allow congregations, or districts, to decide on people for themselves. Why is this the one issue where people don’t feel they can be part of a church where any part of it accepts gays? You’d have to ask a psychologist.

I’m an elder in the PCUSA. We’ve already been though this. I don’t think most people in the PCUSA feel strongly in either direction. But that led them to think they should allow the congregations that want gay elders to elect them. For most people this was basically a compromise.

But since we have many people who think it’s so important to the Gospel that they can’t live with a Church that allows it anywhere in the Church, it looks like we’ve made a radical commitment.
 
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RC1970

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"Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." ~ Romans 1:32

"And he said to his disciples, 'Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.'" ~ Luke 17:1-2
 
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circuitrider

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"Though they know God's righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them." ~ Romans 1:32

"And he said to his disciples, 'Temptations to sin are sure to come, but woe to the one through whom they come! It would be better for him if a millstone were hung around his neck and he were cast into the sea than that he should cause one of these little ones to sin.'" ~ Luke 17:1-2

OK RC1970

How about, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28.

We can all quote scripture. But the above versus only apply if we know something to be sin and it actually is sin. That is part of the big disagreement here.

I once had a parishioner who would quote a proverb that starts out "there is a way that seems right to a man...." any time he disagreed with something. It would have never occurred to him that he might not have been the man seeing it right. We all think we are right or we'd not have a problem here. ;-)
 
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RC1970

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OK RC1970

How about, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus." Gal. 3:28.

We can all quote scripture. But the above versus only apply if we know something to be sin and it actually is sin. That is part of the big disagreement here.

I once had a parishioner who would quote a proverb that starts out "there is a way that seems right to a man...." any time he disagreed with something. It would have never occurred to him that he might not have been the man seeing it right. We all think we are right or we'd not have a problem here. ;-)

And he said, “He who has ears to hear, let him hear.” ~ Mark 4:9
 
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RomansFiveEight

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Issues involving ordination are inherently divisive. Either we ordain women, gays, etc, or we don’t. There’s no compromise.

But still, you’re right that this seems different from other questions. On other issues, we’d allow congregations, or districts, to decide on people for themselves. Why is this the one issue where people don’t feel they can be part of a church where any part of it accepts gays? You’d have to ask a psychologist.

I’m an elder in the PCUSA. We’ve already been though this. I don’t think most people in the PCUSA feel strongly in either direction. But that led them to think they should allow the congregations that want gay elders to elect them. For most people this was basically a compromise.

But since we have many people who think it’s so important to the Gospel that they can’t live with a Church that allows it anywhere in the Church, it looks like we’ve made a radical commitment.

One thing that is a little unique in your polity is the local election of Elders and the local hiring of Pastors; though others are ordained, no church has to 'hire' a Gay pastor. In the UMC, Pastors are appointed. Some are concerned opening up ordination to gays would open them up to getting a gay Pastor appointed.

One proposed solution, for example, is to allow each annual conference to decide. As ordination is a matter for the annual conferences, individual annual conferences could choose not to ordain gays. Generally, Pastors are appointed within a specific annual conference so you wouldn't have the concern of a Gay pastor appointed to a non-affirming church. Though a Pastor ordained elsewhere could, I suppose, transfer to a non-affirming Annual Conference, I'm not sure; maybe they'd have specific rules and standards for appointment? But that would be unprecedented.

At the end of the day though, just like a very evangelical Pastor won't be appointed to a suburban reconciling church, the Bishop and the Cabinet are smart enough to navigate these muddy waters.

In the past, a fear of a Black Bishop caused the formation of our jurisdictional conferences. While unprecedented before, Jurisdictional conferences allows a small subset of annual conference to elect and appoint their own Bishops. It has some redeeming qualities (a Bishop from Texas isn't going to be appointed to serve in Alaska, for example). Some challenges (Texas is bigger than the rest of the conferences in the South-Central Jurisdiction, so almost every Bishop comes from Texas, almost without exception. Nearly every Bishop serving in this jurisdiction is from Texas.), but ultimately, it was borne out of a fear that a black Bishop might be appointed to supervise white Pastors. We've been through these challenges before, and we've found a way to compromise and make things work until the issue moved on.

To Circuitwriters question;

I have the same question. Even when I was as Evangelical as the next guy and felt the Bible clearly condemned homosexuality, I wondered why there was so much fascination with sex. I recall growing up in an Evangelical Southern Baptist household and watching war movies with lots of violence with my dad (his favorite genre) and the blood, guts, gore and language was fine, as was the shooting and the violence; but if there was a scene where a solider finds a lonely french maiden and they begin to kiss, I'd have to leave the room. And we're not talking inappropriate content here, we're talking about the usual censored "sex" shown in movies. Growing up, it was apparent sex was really, really bad; and nothing else was as bad.

As I've studied the issue (some), including with my undergraduate in Psychology and my fascination with that, I've discovered that has popped up more recently. It seems in the last few decades, sex and sexuality has become more and more of an issue. On all fronts. Even breasts! There was a time when woman would breastfeed in church; and not even "cover themselves up". (There are photographs online if you really want to venture out; old black and whites of women in the congregation breast feeding their children in the pews). And while homosexuality isn't new, it was much more 'hidden' in the past. I had a conversation with my Mom a couple of months ago, who is 23 years older than me (no surprises there, right?). In her generation, she didn't know any gay people. Except, she did, only she didn't find out until she was in her 30's. These people didn't "become gay" when they were older, they just wouldn't dare 'come out of the closet' in high school. In my generation, I knew several gay students. They were 'out' or at least 'partly out' (some knew, some didn't), so my generation was more exposed to this; which is why the millennial generation largely affirms homosexuality. We have been around people who have gone through the pain of 'coming out', some have been kicked out of their homes, even murdered (a young man in my town was killed by his stepdad when he came out), and we find they have the same feelings and struggles as us; just with a different gender. And we realize just how "Bull" "It's a choice" is because there's no way anybody would CHOOSE that, and every gay person I know went through at least a period of their life where they wanted nothing more than to be straight. So when faced with it, it's harder. We're also exposed to sex and sexuality a lot more so it's a little less 'scary' to us.

I'm not sure why there's so much obsession with sex and sexuality; but my theory is that homosexuality is coupled with that, and is a way to project our own self-loathing. We grow up believing sex is evil and bad and struggle with our own feelings of lust and sexuality; the staggering number of folks addicted to inappropriate contentography (notwithstanding the Ashley Madison numbers) sure tells us that there are a lot of straight people ashamed of at least parts of their own sexuality. I once heard a report from a hotel manager that said that when a local well-known evangelical gathering came to town, inappropriate contentography purchased on paperview skyrockets. So much that they would anticipate that, and give the group further discounts knowing they'd make it back on 'their cut' of the inappropriate content. And there are dozens of studies indicating that households and lifestyles that suppress sexuality have detrimental effects later in life. Some theorize that among the reason for the disproportionate number of Roman Catholic Priests involved in molestation cases may be in fact their total repression of sex and sexuality in a way that isn't healthy or the way God designed them.

Anyway; so you take ALL of this, lump it together, and then you find a nice scapegoat. A man or a woman who is already ashamed of their sexuality but they can't really hide it, like one can hide (for a while at least) an affair or a inappropriate content addiction or an inability to look away from an attractive woman (or man) walking by. A gay person can't really hide their sexuality (without either lying or being celibate) and by and large, they don't want to anymore. They'll simply reject and leave institutions that tell them they need to; like the church. So we put them on a pedestal, make that issue the greatest and most significant, and then that's our scapegoat for sexual impurity. I have my own demons, but HE is gay, and since I'll never be gay, that's not a sexual demon I'll ever have to deal with (in most cases, plenty of cases of gay-bashing male evangelical Pastors being caught in affairs with men. That's a whole other issue they need to deal with!). It's simply, a scapegoat.

That's why in the case of Kim Davis, she was fine issuing divorce paperwork, signing marriage licenses for folks in wedlock, who were married before, or other circumstances where I certainly wouldn't have married them (short term relationships, for example. I have had people who've known each other two weeks want to get married ASAP. Kim Davis would give them a license!). She herself has been divorced and has violated what is also just as clear (if not clearer) in the Bible. Jesus says in Matthew that to get married after being divorced is to commit adultery. But folks can gloss right over that on their way to Romans 1 to say that unequivocally, homosexuality is sin, the Bible says it, that's it? That's because the pitchfork wielding evangelicals have gotten divorced, and have otherwise been human, have experienced God's grace and understanding and don't believe they are committing adultery every moment of every day even though that's what a cursory glance at the English translations of the Bible will reveal to them (with every bit of clarity as the prohibitions against homosexuality, moreso infact.)
 
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Marius27

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What both of you have said is true. But I'm thinking there is something deeper underlying why this particular issue is more controversial than the rest. You've both shared some of the implications of that level of controversy. But why this topic and not another topic?

My own suspicion is that it has something to do with western views of sex and sexuality in general and not just this topic.

I'd love to see some research as to why this one topic, as Bryan as said, is dividing denominations. Why this? Frankly there aren't nearly as many scriptures that related to the discussion as many others that we could and do disagree on.
It seems to have a lot to do with gays being a scapegoat to deflect from other sins. Due to gays being a minority that most people can't relate to, it's an easy target. For many, it's also the result of Reaction Formation; those with unwanted same-sex attractions attack gays to convince themselves they're not gay. Anti-gay sentiment also causes a lot of death and suffering, which is why the Pro-gay side gets more defensive than on other topics.

Had this been 60 years ago, everyone would probably being attacking each other over segregation and interracial marriage being evil.
 
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RomansFiveEight

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It seems to have a lot to do with gays being a scapegoat to deflect from other sins. Due to gays being a minority that most people can't relate to, it's an easy target. Anti-gay sentiment also causes a lot of death and suffering, which is why the Pro-gay side gets more defensive than on other topics.

Had this been 60 years ago, everyone would probably being attacking each other over segregation and interracial marriage being evil.

While I'm careful not to say the issues are the same, the issue of racial inequality in the 1960's mirrors the issue of sexual orientation today in a lot of ways; including those ways. With most early solutions (separate but equal in the government, Jurisdictional Conferences formed in the UMC, etc.) seeming similar to much of the 'compromises' we see today. Solutions to try to 'wait out' the issue until society catches up or until it 'goes away' (depending on which perspective you hold), even though neither will ever really, truly happen (We still have issues of racism and segregation today even if it isn't as overt as Jim Crow).

And yes, people did attack each other, with the same arguments. People who opposed civil rights often said they were tired of hearing about it. They didn't want the issue brought up over and over again. Of course not, the world already mirrored their values so 'talking about it' could only move it forward. Though there are certainly folks on both side of this issue who want to talk about it.

There was a time, not long ago, that interracial marriage was genuinely just as crazy. Clerks who didn't want to give marriage licenses to interracial couples, it was; after all, illegal; but courts systematically struck down those bans. Churches (even to this day; one of my arguments for 'the sky isn't falling' is the reality that some churches STILL ban interracial marriage today, and are not challenged legally) forbid interracial marriage. Interracial couples were attacked and assaulted. I have an aunt who is adopted and is Cherokee. Two of my favorite stories of hers is when she was in a checkout line and was called a racial slur for hispanics and told to "Go home, you're not welcome here", she proceeded to tell this unprovoked racist standing behind her in line that she WAS home, and explained the boundaries of the Cherokee nation of her ancestors (even if she grew up from infancy onwards with white parents, she was always taught about her heritage). ANOTHER instance, back in the 70's, when she was young, she was called interracial slurs and people, even grown adults, would attack her and her mother when they were out in public. Because her skin is dark (She has dark native american skin and jet black hair, to the uninformed eye she may appear hispanic or bi-racial), they assumed her mother married a black man. Even had things thrown at them, before they moved up north (they lived in the deep south). Two white people with a native american adopted daughter; it doesn't get more American than that, but unwelcome because of the mere APPEARANCE of interracial relations.
 
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hedrick

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One thing that is a little unique in your polity is the local election of Elders and the local hiring of Pastors; though others are ordained, no church has to 'hire' a Gay pastor. In the UMC, Pastors are appointed. Some are concerned opening up ordination to gays would open them up to getting a gay Pastor appointed.

One proposed solution, for example, is to allow each annual conference to decide.

The local church ordains ruling elders, but pastors are ordained by presbyteries. So a lot of the ordination issues are fought at the Presbytery level, not that different form your annual conference.

I think you'll have the same issue we do: a significant number of conservatives are unwilling to be in a denomination, or even a religion, that ordains gays. (Hence the claim that we aren't even Christians.) One proposal for us was local option at the Presbytery level, much as you're proposing for annual conferences. It didn't work, because enough conservatives weren't willing to be in the denomination even if their own presbytery is conservative. I'm not sure that all conservatives feel that way, but it's enough for churches to leave the denomination.
 
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Speaking as a Methodist from California here: It seems to me that, even as the American public and many (though by no means all) American Christians have become more accepting of homosexuality in recent years, the UMC as a whole is, on a global level, going in the opposite direction on this issue. One can attribute that to the growing influence of the Global South (and other parts of the world where Christianity takes a hard line against homosexuality) in the UMC, and the related decline of the UMC in much of the Western world - particularly among the demographics that are more likely to be liberal to begin with.
 
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