Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

thankfulttt · Sep 7, 2015

Laureate said:
Excellent comparison Thankfulttt!

No I do not see Job as an exception to anything, as I mentioned before, the answer to your initial question is, Yes! to Sinner, Saint, Villain, and Hero!

I share your concern about the distorted views many have towards scriptures, if I see someone throw what appears to be too much weight on one scale, I seek to find the ballance of equal justice, often times it looks like were picking a side, because we are loading up the (other) reciprocating scale;

Here is how I see it, You saw an imballance and made an earnest attempt to establish a fair ballance, however in the process you overstepped a boundary or two, this promoted most of the posters here to throw all of their eggs in the opposite scale to compensate for what we perceived to be a discrepancy;

This appeared to you as if we were trying to say that Job was perfect, perfect, perfect! Yet that is not what we are trying to say at all;

We acknoweldged Elohym's testimony first above all, and though We know Job inadvertently made himself out to be more righteous than Elohym, we do not share the same perspective of the testimonies given;

You perceived Job's sin to be much more blatant, and contrary to what we find written of him, you are quick to pick up the implicative sin of Job, but fail to acknowledge it was only implicative, for when it was brought to his attention through young Elijah, Job never opened his mouth;

Yet Elijah was only one Faithful witness thus far, once Elohym spoke, Job did not hesitate to repent, thus dispelling any notion of the arogant Job you were painting, your perspective of Job was shared by his three friends, but that is because they could not fathom Elohym doing what he did to Job without Elohym holding a criminal case against Job;

There was no such criminal case from the beginning against Job, and Elohym made sure we would know that, by specifying so;

Yet, you still thinking like Job's three friends, are convinced Job must have done something wrong prior to it all, totally ignoring Elohym's testimony, and thus you reason to your self that the righteousness which Elohym spoke of must have been self righteousness;

You are one stubborn cookie (no offense intended), yet I would much rather tangle with you, than those who do not think it is important to know why these things fell upon Job, this you have not left off, just a miss ascription in my estimation;

I would rather you ask, O.k. Mr. Smarty pants Laureate, why then did Elohym permit these things to fall out upon Job, if it wasnt for him being Self Righteous?

Instead of you trying to condemn him for something that Elohym was not condemning him for.

As far as I am concerned, David is a ressurected Job, and according to your fair comparison, it seems to me that He has shown improvement over time;

Even still, Ea'huah chose whom He felt was the best example for the Saints to pay heed to, just because other Saints do not appear on the list of three, doesn't mean they were entirely excluded, when we take into consideration the possibilities of one being reborn into the kingdom;

Many stumble over the passage that informs us that a man is appointed to die once is this world, overlooking, that, from Adam to Noah was the beginning and end of one world according to the scriptures;

We agree that what sin Job had committed prior to his testing was not the sin God held Job accountable for. Both God and Elihu only charged Job with his attitude toward God and not man. David said, "against thee, and thee only have I sinned". David had broken most of God's commandments.

Would you agree that without putting on God's righteousness we are not saved? I ask this because I don't believe Job was saved in the beginning. This is the problem that I am having with those that disagree with me.

They see Job saved from the beginning of the book, and I see Job as Paul saw Israel in Romans 10.

Romans 10:1 Paul said, "My hearts desire for Israel is that they might be saved." This was God's desire for Job.

Romans 10:2 Paul said, "They have a zeal for God, but without knowledge." God pointed Job out to Satan because of his zeal for God. And God stated that Job was without knowledge(Job 38:2).

Romans 10:3 Paul said, "They were ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God." Isn't this what God said to Job when God said, Job 40:8 "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous?"

If Israel was not saved, then how could Job have been saved when he was without knowledge?

thankfulttt · Sep 7, 2015

Laureate said:
Many stumble over the passage that informs us that a man is appointed to die once is this world, overlooking, that, from Adam to Noah was the beginning and end of one world according to the scriptures;

Was not Noah saved the same way we are today, by being placed in the Ark? What world are you placing Job in?

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

thankfulttt said:
We agree that what sin Job had committed prior to his testing was not the sin God held Job accountable for. Both God and Elihu only charged Job with his attitude toward God and not man. David said, "against thee, and thee only have I sinned". David had broken most of God's commandments....

Well technically, 'God' was the title in which the pagan Germanic Brits used to refer to Elohym before they were introduced to the scriptures, no saint, prophet, angel, or ordained priest in the bible ever referred to Elohym as 'God' it was forbidden.

Check your bible, 'Baal (lit. Lord) God' is the name & title which the pagan Babylonians used to refer to Ea'huah Elohym, there was a Canaanite town named after such.

"Even from the mount Halak, that goes up to Seir, even unto Baal-Gad in the valley of Lebanon under mount Hermon: and all their kings he took, and smote them, and slew them." [Joshua 11:17]

"And these are the kings of the country which Yowshua and the children of Israel smote on this side Yordan on the west, from Baal-Gad in the valley of Lebanon even unto the mount Halak, that goes up to Seir; which Yowshua gave unto the tribes of Israel for a possession according to their divisions;" [Joshua 12:7]

Check your concordance, 'Gad' is also pronounced 'Gawd' as in g-o-d, and is the name ascribed by both the pagan Germanic tribes, and ancient Babylonians unto Elohym.

The following verses reveal a couple of other cities which the Babylonians also named (after the forbiden ascription) 'God'.

"And they departed from Lim, and pitched in Dibon-Gad." [Numbers 33:45]

"Zenan, and Hadashah, and Migdal-Gad," [Joshua 15:37]

Thus it would not be proper for me to say, Yes 'God' [lit. The evoked one] did anything, for many inappropriate titles were being Evoked, which only Provoked Elohym, or so He claims.

Yet, I can agree with what you actually mean, i.e., putting on the righteousness of Elohym [lit. the Divine Author] is a requirement for salvation.

But perhaps I better expound upon what I mean when I say these things, for I am not convinced we understand the truth of scriptures eye to eye as it pertsins to these matters.

One day I was in the spirit of Grace, and Ruach H'Kodesh guided me to examine the baptismal event of Y'shua H'Meshiach as it is related by Matthew in the Greek tongue, and I was astonished at what I found.

"Then came Y'shua from Galilee to Yordan unto John, to be baptized of him.

But John forbad him, saying, I have need to be baptized by you, and you're coming to me?

Then Y'shua answered him saying...

Ἄφες ἄ(aphis) - ρτι (arti)
Forgive - this one occasion...

- οὕτως -
- this is a (prime) example -

- γὰρ - [πρέπο] - στὶν -
- assigning [a proper] reason - is -

ἡμῖν - πληρῶσαι - πᾶσαν -
our - ability to fulfill - any form of-

δικαιοσύνην.
Righteousness.

Here we have One who has not sinned coming to John to be baptized, yet John's baptismal is for the remission of sins, this is Why John forbade Y'shua, saying, 'I need to be baptised by you...'

Y'shua's response 'aphis arti...' is an Admission that, Yes it would be Inappropriate to baptise a man who has not sinned, Yet if in your estimation, I am wrong for coming to you for such then 'aphis arti...' forgive me this once, pay up at once (as in immediately), etc.

Truly Amazing! (in my estimation, that is), yet you can see why a translator would have dificulty translating it as the Spirit guided me to do: Can you imagine trying to translate Y'shua saying, forgive me!?

Y'shua not only gave John a Good Reason to baptize him, but anyone else who may already be forgiven when they inadvertently come to him to be baptised, a notion which John apparently hadn't taken into consideration.

Of course Y'shua being the Son of Adam [A term literally indicating Seth, yet commonly understood to mean, 'Mankind'];

And we being the many members of his body, thus I perceive, Y'shua's primary motive was more or less symbolically washing some of his filthy garments, as Yhowshua the high priest was invisioned in the book of Zechariah [3:3].

Now, it is by leaning upon the Word of Elohym...

[who happened to incarnate in a ressurected Seth (the third, and Only Begotten Son of Adam that Still has living cells from his physical body residing on earth]

...that we fulfill not leaning upon our own sense of righteousness.

Not by verbalizing his Father's name, YH(Sh)WH-Y'shua, [or the recent French invention 'Jesus' which no one in the scriptures ever referred to him as].

Now, of course I agree with you 100% all need to Believe on The Word of Elohym with Righteousness in order to be saved (as it is stated according to scripture);

Now certain key elements of Elohym's Word were yet a Mystery in Job's day, so I would have to agree with you, when you say, Job needed Salvation even from the beginning;

Yet this continued to be true for every one of Seth's children, until he came and bestowed unto his Disciples the keys of the Kingdom via knowledge of how to properly expound upon a parable aka The two edged Word of Elohym.

Thus it is the reasoning without relying completely on the Word of Elohym that is רשע R'shagh wickedness-unjust.

This is the only form of Salvation that exists, Elohym's Word, and it is only because it is not relied upon Completely that anyone is Condemned.

He was sent into the then standing World to Save it from Judgement day, He alone was physically qualified to [שת ShTh, lit.] 'Take the place of' every living human on earth, for That day, was the Great and dreadful day of Ea'huah;

Just as the book of Malachi informed us, if Elijah-John the Baptist is unable to turn the hearts of (those two particular) Ancient Patriarchs toward the children, and visa-versa, then the earth would be smote with a curse;

John stood in disbelief, and denied his own true identity, whom Y'shua proclaimed him to be, and only two of John's disciples believed his testimony of Y'shua;

And though these two disciples were enough to spawn what we now call Christianity, they would need time to grow in number to satisfy the number Elohym was looking for, hence Y'shua hung on a tree.

Because the priests failed to bring us to Elohym in time, and John stood in doubt, Y'shua took their anointing, and placed it upon all of us via the New Covenant Promise;

And with his own soul Y'shua purchased three days-milleniums for us, buying us time to dislodge our heads from our rectum, for the Great and dreadful day of Ea'huah is still pending.

This is what was meant when the scriptures say, that, he Y'shua (the Messenger of the Covenant) has made us all kings and priests of Elohym;

For back in the day, only 'kings, and priests' were anointed along with the Angels, and Prophets,;

Yet, because we are now all Anointed by the New Covenant promise, there is no need to prophesy unto one another, just a need for Kings, and Priests, to govern, and counsel one's self from on high.

The Grace of the Covenant has always existed, yet was only made available unto those who were able to take hold of it, yet to over ride one's inability to do so was tackled by Elohym overiding one's inabilty with an ordaining.

Our anointing alone is not able to save us, we must hear the Voice, and Follow it, Y'shua was the Voice of every prophet that has ever been, that is why we refer to him as the Word of Elohym;

Now we have what every prophet, king and priest was ordained with, plus access to the keys, all we now need is compliance to the אמן Faith-Truth Without Doubt.

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

For whatsoever is born of Elohym Overcomes the World: and this is the Victory that Overcomes the World, even our Faith." [1st John 5:4]

It is the proper execution of our faith that equates to perfoming Righteousness.

The word 'Overcome' is the meaning of 'Conviction' [orig. Evidence, Demonstration] lit. Trust Without Doubt, with this we attain unto a Victor's Crown, the Heb. word for 'Victor, victorious, etc. is the same for 'Righteousness'.

"Faith without Demonstration is dead" is the same as saying 'Faith without Conviction is dead'

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

thankfulttt said:
If Israel was not saved, then how could Job have been saved when he was without knowledge?

This logic is naturally faulty!

Can a parent save an ignorant child?

Of course!

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

thankfulttt said:
Romans 10:2 Paul said, "They have a zeal for God, but without knowledge." God pointed Job out to Satan because of his zeal for God. And God stated that Job was without knowledge(Job 38:2).

Romans 10:3 Paul said, "They were ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness , have not submitted themselves to the righteousness of God." Isn't this what God said to Job when God said, Job 40:8 "Will you condemn me that you might be righteous?"

I would say, that is a fair assumption for one who does not know Who Satan is;

Elohym may have pointed out the results of Job's Zeal, yet He described the fruits of Job as Righteous! How are we to recognize a tree? By his fruits!

Yes! Job was ignorant of somethings, who amongst us, is not? Yet, Job acknowledged Elohym's testimony of such, and (barring the obvious) specified, that it was knowledge of the words that proceeded from his mouth that he was ignorant of.

There is no indication that Job tried to do anything outside of his scope of knowledge pertaining to Elohym, now in my estimation, That's Righteous!

"Will you condemn me that you might be righteous?"

Is a question designed to make the listener understand what it is they are implying unawaringly!

There are three types of fallout.

1) We receive the Graceful Promises of Elohym's Word.

2) We receive the Requests of our prayers which
Heaven deems worthy to honor.

3) We receive a Just Recompence weighed on the scales of Love & Truth.

This is what I see everyone Overlooking, Job, his three friends, and many of our beloved brothers, and sisters here today, every one seems to be stuck on one conclusion as to why these things fell out upon Job;

You, and Job's three friends assume these things fell out because of a recompense, even after Elohym said No that's not it!

These things fell out upon Job because he ignorantly asked for it with his lips, not his actions.

In this Story, Job [lit. Enemy] is Satan [lit. Advesary] the king of all pride is the ignorant Ego of Job saying, Golly shucks, I'm only perfect, and upright, and avoid evil, because you protect me, but take away your protection and I will curse you to your face, just like any dumb shmuck!

Get it?

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

There are two attorneys at Law here, and our lips can serve only one of these two Masters, the Word of Elohym, or our immature imaginations, unfit judgements, unwarranted fears, and our unsubstantiated delusions which Elohym promises to hand us over to, if we do not exhibit the Love for Truth.

That is who Satan is, aka the Anger of Ea'huah Elohym, our Ego!

Laureate · Sep 8, 2015

thankfulttt said:
What world are you placing Job in?

Many Scholars over the years have placed Job amongst the antidiluvians, but We know this can not be true, because Job was attacked by the Sabeans, and Chaldeans who existed after the flood of Noah's day.

"After this lived Job one hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations." [Job 42:16]

When we closely compare Jobs estimated age of 140+ with the declining ages of the Patriarchs, we find Job's years to be compatible with Yacob who only lived 147 years old, (and his father I'tsaac who lived to be 180).

thankfulttt · Sep 8, 2015

Laureate said:
I would say, that is a fair assumption for one who does not know Who Satan is;

Elohym may have pointed out the results of Job's Zeal, yet He described the fruits of Job as Righteous! How are we to recognize a tree? By his fruits!

Yes! Job was ignorant of somethings, who amongst us, is not? Yet, Job acknowledged Elohym's testimony of such, and (barring the obvious) specified, that it was knowledge of the words that proceeded from his mouth that he was ignorant of.

There is no indication that Job tried to do anything outside of his scope of knowledge pertaining to Elohym, now in my estimation, That's Righteous!

"Will you condemn me that you might be righteous?"

Is a question designed to make the listener understand what it is they are implying unawaringly!

There are three types of fallout.

1) We receive the Graceful Promises of Elohym's Word.

2) We receive the Requests of our prayers which
Heaven deems worthy to honor.

3) We receive a Just Recompence weighed on the scales of Love & Truth.

This is what I see everyone Overlooking, Job, his three friends, and many of our beloved brothers, and sisters here today, every one seems to be stuck on one conclusion as to why these things fell out upon Job;

You, and Job's three friends assume these things fell out because of a recompense, even after Elohym said No that's not it!

These things fell out upon Job because he ignorantly asked for it with his lips, not his actions.

In this Story, Job [lit. Enemy] is Satan [lit. Advesary] the king of all pride is the ignorant Ego of Job saying, Golly shucks, I'm only perfect, and upright, and avoid evil, because you protect me, but take away your protection and I will curse you to your face, just like any dumb shmuck!

Get it?

No, I don't agree. Yes, God did not correct Job for any sin against man, only those against God. Job charged God foolishly after the second test. What three days are you referring to(milleniums)?

Job was only righteous until iniquity was found in him.

Ezekiel 33:12 Therefore, thou son of man, say unto the children of thy people, The righteousness of the righteous shall not deliver him in the day of his transgression: as for the wickedness of the wicked, he shall not fall thereby in the day that he turneth from his wickedness; neither shall the righteous be able to live for his righteousness in the day that he sinneth.

You have agreed that Elihu was the messenger of 'elohiym.

Elihu declared that Job had rebelled against 'elohiym. How does this relate to blameless and upright?

Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Are you saying 'elohiym didn't mean what the messenger of 'elohiym said?

Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than God's?

thankfulttt · Sep 8, 2015

Laureate said:
Many Scholars over the years have placed Job amongst the antidiluvians, but We know this can not be true, because Job was attacked by the Sabeans, and Chaldeans who existed after the flood of Noah's day.

"After this lived Job one hundred and forty years, and saw his sons, and his sons’ sons, even four generations." [Job 42:16]

When we closely compare Jobs estimated age of 140+ with the declining ages of the Patriarchs, we find Job's years to be compatible with Yacob who only lived 147 years old, (and his father I'tsaac who lived to be 180).

I would place Job post captivity of Israel. Jehoiada lived to be a hundred and thirty. The cup of woe was passed from Zion to Edom. The grammar is significant. Elihu's ancestry is to be considered. The book of Job may even be the last written book of the Old Testament.

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
No, I don't agree.

To say, 'No I do not agree.' and not specify to what and why you do not agree to it, is vain, and empty, and poor evasive manuvering, we are in a debate forum, show some Coup de Grâce.

Because I rely upon Ea'huah Elohym with all my substance, it is a matter of What I am able to agree with, or unable to agree with, His word is my justification of which I am neither ashamed of nor shy to share!

Otherwise, those who have are receiving more, and those who don't get it, have what they do get, taken away.

'What I do, or don't agree with' are words that belonged to my vocabulary before I learned how to trust, and rely on Him with all my substance, I acheived this by making a free will offering;

Awwww! You missed it! For the Offering which I gave Him, was my sense of Free Will, which everybody likes to think Elohym gave unto us;

Yet it was our first mother who stole that right to decide for her self, instead of leaning upon the Will of Elohym, and Adam who forsook his birth right when he immaturally relied upon, and willfuly part took of her (lack of) faith, and discretion.

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
Job charged God foolishly after the second test.

The taunting accusations, and provocation of Job's three friends who spoke to Job as if they did not know who he was, I would consider that the third trial.

I'm still recovering from a similar devistation, after being bombarded with one catastrophe, after another, then having my inner circle of confidants emplode on me.

Things you would not wish upon an enemy, let alone a friend, blessed is the name of Ea'huah Elohym, to him goes all the Glory, אמן

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
"Job was only righteous until iniquity was found in him."

This I agree to, yet we saw you initially refer to Job's initial righteousness as 'self righteous', this is what I was trying to say is not substantiated by scripture.

It appears you have adjusted your view sense then, but only now is this brought to my attention, (if I'm mistaken please clarify this for me);

Job sinned with his lips when his words implied he could possibly stand a chance against Elohym in a fair court of law;

His iniquity [twisted interpretation] which permited him to transgress in his heart, and commit a tresspass with his lips, was his assumption that, everything that occured to him could only be predicated on his inapropriate conduct.

This is the wickedness which his three friends was trying to shove down his throught, and this is the ignorance, and wickedness which Elijah was referring to when he said...

"Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

My Father will try Job unto the end, because of his response to unjust men." [Job 34:35-36]

The iniquity [twisted miss interpretation] of Job, and his three friends was, to assume that these things can only occur as a form of recompense;

And we can see the potential for this iniquity in Job from the very beginning of the story, when Job prayed for his children;

"....for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed Elohym in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." [Job 1:5]

Ignorance is the 'lack of knowledge' which Elohym declares to be a primary contributer to His children dying;

For when one builds upon things they do not understand, then they are venturing into the dark with inadequate light, though they may be able to see something, they are not able to offer any certainty, as to what it is they see;

It is from such venturing into the dark without adequate light that one gives rise to guessing, and speculating, when trying to reason;

Eventually such guessing, and speculation leads to trial, and error experimentations, ventures, and theoretical hypothesis;

And as one can imagine this would be an excellent source for one to acquire the raw materials in which to construct their own sense of (self) righteousness;

"Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of the response he has given to unjust men." [Job 34:35-36]

In this verse Elijah declares that Job is Ignorant, i.e. without knowledge, and that he is lacking discernment-wisdom, Mind you, this is not a crime-sin;

Job's ignorance contributed to his miss interpretation, and when he leaned upon it, it also became his inability to order his words apropriately;

And it was Job's lack of discretion to fail to hold fast to what he did know, and to hold his peace when it came to things that are over his head, or otherwise involves more than what one is aware of;

Job assumed, if his friends were his accusers, and Elohym was the judge, then surely Elohym would confess they were wrong, implying Job is right, and innocent;

And because Job could not imagine any other good reason Why Elohym would permit these things to fall out upon him, he also was willing to assume that Elohym did these things to Job, because He can, which mind you is a premise, but not a reason for any act of righteousness.

Thereby confusing Elohym's Right to do whatsoever He pleases, with Elohym's Righteousness, which (according to Y'shua) is Elohym's ability to have an appropriate reason for whatsoever He does, (or does not) decide to do;

This is why we call Him Righteous, not because He can, but because He has what it takes to achieve whatsoever He pleases, and because He does so with a Just Cause, a Special Purpose, and a Divine Reason.

Notwithstanding, whatsoever it is that Elohym can not actually do, He is able to achieve the equivalent thereof, to the extent that no one would be the wiser.

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
"Job 34:37 For he addeth rebellion unto his sin, he clappeth his hands among us, and multiplieth his words against God.

Are you saying 'elohiym didn't mean what the messenger of 'elohiym said?

Job 35:2 Think this to be right, that you said, My righteousness is more than Gods?"

I agree with what you are saying about Job being righteous until iniquity [a twisted interpretation] was found in him, yet how it was found in him you are not seeing quite accurate;

Job never came right out in the open, and said that he was more righteous than Elohym, his words (mathmatically) implied that he was more righteous than Elohym indirectly;

Elijah caught the implication, and pointed it out to Job, and Elohym confirmed it;

2 הֲזֹאת חָשַׁבְתָּ לְמִשְׁפָּט אָמַרְתָּ צִדְקִי מֵאֵל:
[Job 35:2 Tanakh]

ה - is
זאת - this
חשב(ת) - (your) estimation
ל - of
משפט - justice
אמר(ת) - (you) said
צדק(י) - (my) righteousness
מ - versus
אל - the Divine Author(s)

'Is this your estimation of justice? You said, My rigjteousness versus the Divine Author.'

[The same also translates]

ה)זאת) - (is) this (what)
חשב(ת) - (you are) implying
ל - that
מ - a
שפט - judge would
אמר - say
ת - you are
צדק(י) - (one who is) righteous
מ - more than
אלv - the Divine Author
''Is this what you're implying? that a judge would say you are more righteous than the Divine Author!

[Notice in the native text, there is no ל prefixing the אמר, if there would be a ל it would indicate a quotation, thus Elijah is not qouting Job verbatum here.]

Elijah never charged Job under the premise in which the three friends were charging him with, (i.e. past crimes);

Elijah was trying to show Job (what he was implying inadvertently), that his attempt to defend him self made Elohym look unjust;

Job's iniquity was basically spawned by the logic which he, and his three friends shared, who all assumed these things could not have happened unto anyone unless Elohym had found them guilty of a crime (sin);

The prodding, and tormenting accusations from his friends, provoked Job to defend him self, and this is where he insists that he is inocent;

Job relied upon his own understanding, an inadvertently implied that Elohym was unjust, IF He did these things to Job as an act of recompence;

It is this big 'IF' that Job and his three friends were banking on, and stumbling over;

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
I would place Job post captivity of Israel. Jehoiada lived to be a hundred and thirty. The cup of woe was passed from Zion to Edom. The grammar is significant. Elihu's ancestry is to be considered. The book of Job may even be the last written book of the Old Testament.

How can the book of Job be considered a candidate for the last book of the Tanakh-O.T. did not the prophet Ezekiel speak of him as Noah, and Daniel, prophets who came before him?

Laureate · Sep 13, 2015

thankfulttt said:
What three days are you referring to(milleniums)?

"The same day went Y'shua out of the house, and sat by the sea side.

And great multitudes were gathered together unto him, so that he went into a ship, and sat; and the whole multitude stood on the shore.

And he spake many things unto them in parables...

All these things spoke Y'shua unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spoke he not unto them:" [Matthew 13:1-3, & 34]

Is this not worded just so, for a reason? To let it be known, When the word of Elohym is delivered unto the general public who congregate to see, and hear the Word of Elohym, it is presented in the form of a parable;

"And he said unto them, Know you not this parable? and how then will you know (any, or) all parables?" [Mark 4:13]

According to Y'shua (in Mark 4:13) the parable of the Sower is the Parable from which to study, and learn about all parables;

From the parable of the sower we can see there are two aspects of a parable, both are literal, and both are figurative to one another;

The difference between the two aspects is one is referred to as Carnal, or (Sincere) Milk, and the other aspect is referred to as Spiritual, or (the) Meat (of Truth);

Scriptures conclude that Babes can not digest, nor assimilate the spiritual meat of the scriptures properly, thus the entire scriptures taken at face value is Milk, and the unspecified implications of the scriptures is Spiritual(ly un seen) Meat.

Once a disciple becomes fluent in scripturally based parablisms, they have as if it were a pair of spiritual seeing glasses, and a spiritual hearing aide in which to discern, and comprehend the spiritual matters of the scriptures, as well as whatsoever spiritual matter in life that may be before them.

Y'shua informed the Jews (that were buying and selling goods in the temple court yard), he would raise his temple in three days;

Y'shua told the Scribes, and the Pharisees, as Yownah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so shall the Son of Adam be in the heart of the earth for three days, and nights;

These are both parables, and as Y'shua (the Word of Elohym) fulfilled the Carnal face value of these parables, so shall he fulfill the Spiritual implications of these parables;

"For a thousand years in your sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." [Psalm 90:4]

A day is as a thousand years, and as a (three hour) watch in the night, thus we Know what (millenium) day, and what three hour watch, that the Son of Adam will return.

You say, that can't be right, for Y'shua said no man knows the day or the hour when he shall return but the Father!

This is true, however, Y'shua also said, the Father has never been seen, nor has anyone his Word in their heart, only because they do not believe the truth of the Word of Elohym.

"...The Father himself, who has sent me....You have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his shape.

And you have not his Word abiding in you: (only) because whom he has sent, him you believe not." [John 5:37-38]

Y'shua also said that the Father commended all things into his hands, and that he has revealed everything unto us....in a parable.

And that the Spirit of Truth will come and explain all these truths as he brings to recall the many sayings of the Word of Elohym;

Besides, the above revelation does not indicate a precise day, or hour, just a rough time frame.

Such matters are meant for the eyes, and ears of spiritually mature beings, it is not intended for the babes of the denominations to hear such things, nor should we expect them to.

But let them be weaned from the Milk and drawn from the breast, or else how shall they be able to understand, and learn from our Chief Shepherd when he comes, and walks the earth again, let alone when he speaks in our hearts?

"For when the Chief Shepherd shall appear, you shall receive a Crown of Glory that FADES not away." [1st Peter 5:4]

"The Crown of Pride, the drunkards of Aphriyem, shall be trodden under feet:

And the Glorious Beauty, which is on the head of the fat valley, shall be a FADING flower....

In that day shall the Host of Ea'huah be for a Crown of Glory, and for a Diadem of Beauty, unto the residue of his people,

To whom shall he teach knowledge? and to whom shall he make to understand doctrine? those who are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts.

For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little:

For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people." [Isaiah 28:3-5, & 9-11]

"For Zion’s sake will I not hold my peace, and for Yerusalem’s sake I will not rest, until the righteousness thereof goes forth as brightness, and the salvation thereof as a lamp that radiates.

And the Gentiles shall see your righteousness, and all kings your Glory: Then shall you be called by a New Name, which the Mouth-Spokesman of Ea'huah shall name.

You too shall be a Crown of Glory in the hand of Ea'huah, and a Royal Diadem in the hand of your Elohey." [Isaiah 62:1-3]

"To whom shall he say, This is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing? Yet they will not pay attention.

Though the Word of Ea'huah is presented unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken.

Therefore thus says Ea'huah Elohym, Behold, I will lay in Zion, for a foundation, a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: those who truly believe shall not חיש [ make haste] [nor חיש be hesitatant." [Isaiah 28:12-13, & 16]

"For he will lift up an ensign to the nations from far, and will hiss unto them from the end of the earth: and, behold, they shall come with speed swiftly:" [Isaiah 5:26]

"But you are those who forsake Ea'huah, that forget my Holy Mountain, Who prepare a table for גד (Gawd), and Who furnish a drink offering for מני (Muh'nee)

Therefore will I number you to the sword, and you shall all bow down to the slaughter: because when I called, you did not answer; when I spake, you did not hear...." [Isaiah 65:11-12]

Sorry, got a little carried away there, but yea, that third day!

Laureate · Sep 14, 2015

thankfulttt said:
Was not Noah saved the same way we are today, by being placed in the Ark?

Yes indeed! But again I'm not so sure we share the same depth of understanding when it comes to these words;

Eight people, and numerous animals were Saved on an Ark, their Salvation was the Convictions-Righteousness of their Faith;

Were they Saved by the one we have come to know as Y'shua? Of course! He is the Word of Elohym, Noah heard the Word of Salvation, and inclined accordingly;

Were these eight individuals the only humans permitted to see the New Heaven, and Earth that was waiting for them on the otherside of the flood?

No, they were not! Yet they were the only ones permitted to survive, and not have to taste death a second time in that world, and it was they who reushered into the kingdom the MANY who rejected the Salvation of Noah's preaching.

Likewise today, if this be the last day, then we should keep an eye out for the Father Elijah, whom Malachi indicates will come on Memorial day aka Shevout;

That is the day that the Torah is annually commemorated, the same day which king David, and John the baptist were reportedly born, which is also the day Y'shua instructed us that the Spirit of Truth-Father would come, Pentecost.

This time He will try to point out that we are amongst the resurrected, and that we should draw our hearts unto the 24 birthright elders which scripture mentions by name from Adam to Aphriyem.

And he will try to persuade the 24 elders to turn their hearts unto the children who vaguely recall a prior life;

Like Y'owseph in Egypt, and Daniel in Babylon, the lamb will unlock, and reveal the Kings Vision aka the scriptures which no other man could unlock, or reveal.

And from thence shall He preach precept upon precept, yet because it is the last days of this world, which is scheduled to incenerate, he will include in His preaching what one must do to not have to taste death.

The kingdom will come according to our prayer request, and Micah 4, Daniel 2, Revelations 808, Revelations 12, and the Father will call his saints unto Him, for every firstborn, and and miss appropriated tithe belongs to Him,

Many will ponder, why would He say, we should fly like a bird to His holy Mt. when we trust in Ea'huah"

Yet it will be the Spirit of Truth they will be saying this unto, the Father Himself, whom they claim to trust in, while they are in the very process of doubting Him?

Notwithstanding, when the Master of the House rises from the dead, and sees fit to lock and secure the door to the actual kingdom, then they will be as in the days of Noah;

Knock, knock, knock, let us in!

So to me, Yes! Those who will enter into the literal Kingdom will not have to taste death;

For the earth-whale (of Yownah) will open up it's mouth, and from out of His mouth will come forth one preaching a flood of information;

And the tail of the whale [being the prophet who teaches the truth but unto those who do not believe, he is the prophet that teaches lies] he will sweep one third of the stars of heaven and give them roles to play out here on earth;

For אליה Elijah amongst other things means, the 'tail' or '[bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]' of a lamb.

And as Y'shua noted in the Sign of Yownah, the whale will play out the role of the Earth which is the literal Rock & Consuming fire sitting on the throne (our atmosphere Heaven), whose likeness we were created after.

And like the children of Israel with Moshe, they will take the two wings of a great eagle, and come to the Great Mountain Burning with Fire being cast into the sea.

And those who believe the preaching of Elijah will be raptured, as they take the two wings of a great eagle and fly away from the face of the serpent;

Which is twofold, for there are no serpents in Hawaii, and when the elements of our atmosphere ignite;

Then shall the earth-whale come to our rescue, and open her mouth, the door to the Kingdom, and shall swallow the flood of people, who believed the flood of truth that proceeded from the Whale's Mouth-Spokesman;

"Behold, the Lord has a mighty and strong one, who is like a tempest of hail and a destroying storm, like a mighty flood of overflowing waters, he shall cast down to the earth with the hand the crown of pride, the drunkards of Ephraim, shall be trodden under feet:

To whom shall he say, This is the rest wherewith you may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear.

Wherefore hear the word of Ea'huah, you scornful men, who rule over this people that is in Jerusalem.

Because you have said, We have made a covenant with death, and with hell are we at agreement;

[They did this when they made a covenant with Elohym, then referred to him as Beelzebub-Satan]

when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, it shall not come unto us: for we have made lies our refuge, and under falsehood have we hid ourselves:

Therefore thus says Ea'huah Elohym Behold, I will lay in Zion for a foundation a stone, a tried stone, a precious corner stone, a sure foundation: he that believes shall not חיש make haste, nor חיש be hesitant;

Judgment also will I lay to the line, and righteousness to the plummet: and the hail shall sweep away the refuge of lies, and the waters shall overflow the hiding place.

And your covenant with death shall be disannulled, and your agreement with hell shall not stand; when the overflowing scourge shall pass through, then you shall be trodden down by it." [Isaiah 28:2-3, 12, & 14-18]

mikedsjr · Sep 14, 2015

thankfulttt said:
If Job was involved in contract negotiations with Satan, doesn't that make him a villain?

Like others have said, your starting point is wrong. It's clearly not speaking of Satan. More like a whale

thankfulttt · Sep 21, 2015

Laureate said:
How can the book of Job be considered a candidate for the last book of the Tanakh-O.T. did not the prophet Ezekiel speak of him as Noah, and Daniel, prophets who came before him?

Yes you are correct, but in the same sense are you not saying Job followed Daniel?

thankfulttt · Sep 21, 2015

Laureate said:
This I agree to, yet we saw you initially refer to Job's initial righteousness as 'self righteous', this is what I was trying to say is not substantiated by scripture.

It appears you have adjusted your view sense then, but only now is this brought to my attention, (if I'm mistaken please clarify this for me);

Job sinned with his lips when his words implied he could possibly stand a chance against Elohym in a fair court of law;

His iniquity [twisted interpretation] which permited him to transgress in his heart, and commit a tresspass with his lips, was his assumption that, everything that occured to him could only be predicated on his inapropriate conduct.

This is the wickedness which his three friends was trying to shove down his throught, and this is the ignorance, and wickedness which Elijah was referring to when he said...

"Job has spoken without knowledge, and his words were without wisdom.

My Father will try Job unto the end, because of his response to unjust men." [Job 34:35-36]

The iniquity [twisted miss interpretation] of Job, and his three friends was, to assume that these things can only occur as a form of recompense;

And we can see the potential for this iniquity in Job from the very beginning of the story, when Job prayed for his children;

"....for Job said, It may be that my sons have sinned, and cursed Elohym in their hearts. Thus did Job continually." [Job 1:5]

Ignorance is the 'lack of knowledge' which Elohym declares to be a primary contributer to His children dying;

In your multiplicity of words you have not answered how Job could remain righteous while charging God foolishly.

You have questioned my original stance on Job's righteousness. My stance has never changed. Job was standing in his own righteousness, which was without knowledge. Job's judgment was therefore faulty. Like the Bible says, all our righteousness is as filthy rags. It is only God's righteousness that is good. Job needed to be clothed in God's righteousness in order to obtain salvation.

Job's own words indicate that he decided who was good and who was evil, who lived, or who died.

Job 29:17 And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

Job 30:2 Yea, whereto might the strength of their hands profit me, in whom old age was perished?

Just as Paul's righteousness was corrupt when he had Christians stoned, so similarly did Job according to his own mouth.

In Job 34:36 My desire is that Job may be tried unto the end because of his answers for wicked men.

All the English translations say pretty much the same thing. Elihu desired that Job's trials go on for ever.

Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

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