[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Sins of the Ignorant

Urlawyer said:

It's a firm position to have, and I appreciate that you've cited your sources. But, in this case, I pose my question on you again: why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were.

Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven? Before you answer, please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

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Well it's a pity call yourself an atheist not an agnostic or seeker ,because that is you will have to be in order to at least to be allowed to any new 'lightto enter .If can answer
that I will tell you my opinion whichs different from most .

Urlawyer said:

Hello and good evening to you all. I am an atheist. Just thought I'd put that out there right away.
As a former christian and member of a predominantly christian family, I find myself frequently analyzing christian philosophy and asking questions of myself and others to understand various problems with the faith. More often than not, unfortunately, I am met with unsatisfying or even downright... um, unintelligent answers, shall we say. I am hoping that, by posing my question(s) to a wider audience via the internet, I might receive better, more satisfying results.
That said, here is my question:

One of the biggest pillars of the christian faith is the divine sacrifice of the savior, Jesus, so that people might be saved from the consequences of original sin and instead be delivered to the almighty creator in heaven. In order to receive redemption, one must only believe and accept Christ as his savior (John 3:16 and John 14:6).
The problem arises when one thinks about those who will never have the opportunity to hear about, much less accept, Jesus Christ. What will happen to those people? Will they be sent to hell for ignorance? What kind of loving, all powerful god would enforce such a horrific punishment for so unavoidable a crime? Or alternatively, would God have mercy and allow them into heaven, in which case all mention of Jesus should cease so that no one would even have the option to reject him?
Either way, it's a conundrum. One for which christian apologetics, in my view, has failed to provide a good answer. I would hope to get different answers here than that which has already been plastered over the internet so that I don't have to explain my reasoning as to why those explanations don't work; but I will if I must.

I look forward to a reasonable and enlightening discussion.

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the best answer i can think of is, you cannot reject something you never heard of.
it's only after you have been exposed to christianity and rejected it does the above scenario apply.

Urlawyer said:

Ah, in that case, could you cite any scripture for why you feel this way?
Also, I'm curious as to what exactly you think this other plan God has might be. Care to elaborate?

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not really , study his feasts he comands his people to do ..

or maybe study closely Gal 6 . we can talk in a few years about it.

Larnievc said:

Sorry, but I thought you were talking about the lake of fire not being all of Hell, just a location within it. Like New Jersey.

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Not quite like New Jersey, but close enough

Welcome to Hell:

Urlawyer said:

Why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations?

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I would ask first, why should we do anything at all in life?

Paul teaches us that whatever we do should be for the glory of God (1 Corinthians 10:31) and the Lord taught us that whatever we do should be according to God's will (Matthew 6:10).

I cannot see how removing all mention of Jesus from history and instead instilling good values into subsequent generations would be for the glory of God. It would actually be for the glory of man and not for the glory of God, since such an act would teach that God is not, in fact, the root and source of all goodness (Matthew 19:17; Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19).

There are probably many ways to demonstrate that doing what you propose is also not the will of God. For example, it would go against the Lord's commandment to go and make disciples all the nations (Matthew 28:19; Mark 16:15) (although Jesus issued this commandment to the apostles and ministers, and not to all Christians in general).

Urlawyer said:

Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven?

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Urlawyer said:

please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

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I think your referral is quite apt. We might also consider, No one can come to Me except the Father draw him (John 6:44); and If I be lifted up from the earth, I will draw all men unto Me (John 12:32).

What does it mean for someone to come to the Father by means of Christ?

Is it possible for someone who has never heard of Christ to be actually led by Him?

If we say no, then we are denying the presence of Christ in certain other people, which then implies that we deny that God is omnipresent. But we know that God fills all things:


Furthermore, while we derive knowledge of God and God's will through supernatural revelation and the Incarnation of the Lord, knowledge of God is also revealed to us through knowledge of oneself and of God's creation, in general. Paul writes, for example,

and the Lord Himself said,



To your question, "Do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven?", I really have no answer, because, it is for God to judge in the end and not me. God will show mercy on whom He chooses to show mercy (Exodus 33:19). Certainly, however, if one is doing the things that the Lord suggests in Matthew 25, he or she is living in alignment with biblical guidelines, albeit unwittingly. Come, ye blessed of my Father, He says; Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world (Matthew 25:34). Those on the right make it clear that they did not recognize Him in life: Lord, when saw we thee?

Please note in all this that I am not suggesting that if one is seeking Truth, one can pick and choose whatever one wants. We are discussing specifically the case of someone who had never heard of Christ. Nothing in Scripture justifies apostasy.

Urlawyer said:

@whois
If that is your stance then I would appreciate your opinion on this:

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where are these "good values" going to come from?
another human?
if so, which human shall it be?
hitler perhaps? stalin? khan?

Larnievc said:

Sorry, but I thought you were talking about the lake of fire not being all of Hell, just a location within it. Like New Jersey.

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That is what I suggested. Just like New Jersey in the US. There are many places in the Hell where one's eternal life is not that unbearable.

Urlawyer said:

@Dialogist

Well, considering more people will potentially be able to realize the glory of God in the end, I would argue that it would ultimately be for the glory of God, albeit via a round about path. But of course, this is a little bit hard to swallow. It would primarily be for the salvation of a greater number of people.
If you knew that killing yourself/giving up your own salvation could save untold numbers of children, would you do it? It's an obvious social paradox, but it is still something to consider.



I want to propose something to you, and bear with me here because it sounds convoluted, but I am wholeheartedly serious: I am an Atheist because I have found no compelling evidence to suggest a god exists but also because I have never felt something I can confidently call "the presence of God". In this way, I do not know God. I can say I know of God/Jesus but nothing else. Would this file me with the people who have never heard of Jesus? Does the simple act of hearing about a figure from the past named Jesus and is said to have been, quite unconvincingly, the son of God, make someone hell bound despite them doing their best to love and support their fellow human beings? Where is the line drawn?



Well, I guess this sort of answers the above question, but I'll leave it in case you or someone else has something to add.



@whois
I am going to ignore your appeal to emotion and instead direct you to a parallel conversation in this thread:

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Actually, I completely missed that you were an atheist. It doesn't really change anything I said.

One thing that I think I would agree with you is that people might actually be better off with no understanding of Christ and Christianity than a seriously flawed understanding.

To answer your question, I would say that there is a distinct difference between knowing God and knowing about God. Learning true things about God may help us to know the true God, but knowing false things about God probably will not. You are surrounded by over 20,000 Christian sects, each with different beliefs - some minor and perhaps unimportant, but others with major differences that lead to dramatically different understandings of God, man's nature, sin, and salvation (a word which means in Greek, by the way, "healing"). Either all of these sects are professing false things about God, or all but one are professing false things about God. Personally, I think the right thing is to seek truth. If the Scripture you quoted is true, then if you seek truth, you will find God. Seeking truth, you are probably on a straighter path than many Christians who have inherited somewhat fanciful beliefs.

Urlawyer said:

So when would they realize God? The second before they die? When you say they instinctively know God, does that not imply they should know him throughout their lives? You just said that God manifests himself through his creation. It would seem to indicate that those who live within nature would already have had a good understanding of God by the time any outside company was to puncture their bubble of seclusion.

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Don't forget that the human mind is easy to deceive. This does not mean truth cannot be found, given enough time. It's impossible to know when or if they realized who the one true God is, but make no mistake, God has manifest himself through what has been made so that none of us will have an excuse come judgment.

Chriliman said:

Don't forget that the human mind is easy to deceive.

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Indeed. You may be deceived into thinking gods are real.

This does not mean truth cannot be found, given enough time. It's impossible to know when or if they realized who the one true God is, but make no mistake, God has manifest himself through what has been made so that none of us will have an excuse come judgment.

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For what will they be judged?

Dialogist said:

Actually, I completely missed that you were an atheist. It doesn't really change anything I said.

One thing that I think I would agree with you is that people might actually be better off with no understanding of Christ and Christianity than a seriously flawed understanding.

To answer your question, I would say that there is a distinct difference between knowing God and knowing about God. Learning true things about God may help us to know the true God, but knowing false things about God probably will not. You are surrounded by over 20,000 Christian sects, each with different beliefs - some minor and perhaps unimportant, but others with major differences that lead to dramatically different understandings of God, man's nature, sin, and salvation (a word which means in Greek, by the way, "healing"). Either all of these sects are professing false things about God, or all but one are professing false things about God. Personally, I think the right thing is to seek truth. If the Scripture you quoted is true, then if you seek truth, you will find God. Seeking truth, you are probably on a straighter path than many Christians who have inherited somewhat fanciful beliefs.

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Amen!

Davian said:

Indeed. You may be deceived into thinking gods are real.

For what will they be judged?

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Judged based on works through Christ and judged based on works apart from Christ.

Works through Christ lead to perfect righteousness.

Works apart from Christ lead to destruction.

Note: a part of being a true Christian is to willingly destroy the passions of the flesh by submitting your all to Jesus, who took your sins upon Himself and makes you perfect before the Father so that you may have life to the fullest.

This is why true Christians never stop being true Christians. It's not me, but Christ who lives in me that gives me perseverance and strength.

Chriliman said:

Judged based on works through Christ and judged based on works apart from Christ.

Works through Christ lead to perfect righteousness.

Works apart from Christ lead to destruction.

Note: a part of being a true Christian is to willingly destroy the passions of the flesh by submitting your all to Jesus, who took your sins upon Himself and makes you perfect before the Father so that you may have life to the fullest.

This is why true Christians never stop being true Christians. It's not me, but Christ who lives in me that gives me perseverance and strength.

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How does one "work through Christ" if one does not believe?

Urlawyer said:

But you are right, if I didn't prize truth as much as I do, I would most likely still be a Christian right now instead of an Atheist.

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haven't you ever honestly wondered why every culture on this planet has a god of sorts?
even the uneducated tribals have their gods.
the romans had their gods.
all cultures of today have their gods.
you can not possibly say this is some sort of a fad.
fads do not become global and persist for centuries unless there is some sort of validity to it.
this validation comes from within each of us.
i'm positive you will say that you are more than just a sack of interacting chemicals.

so, what exactly is the truth here?

whois said:

haven't you ever honestly wondered why every culture on this planet has a god of sorts?
even the uneducated tribals have their gods.
the romans had their gods.
all cultures of today have their gods.
you can not possibly say this is some sort of a fad.
fads do not become global and persist for centuries unless there is some sort of validity to it.

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There is a global and persistent nature to refer to the Sun as rising and setting, as if it orbits the Earth, and not the other way around, despite us now knowing the reality of it. I do not see reality as being put to a vote.

this validation comes from within each of us.

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Our imagination.

i'm positive you will say that you are more than just a sack of interacting chemicals.

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Sure, there are emergent properties that go beyond the sum of the molecules that we are made of, but how do you get from that to a "God" that allegedly walked and talked in a garden that has no evidence of having existed, poofed people and animals into existence, and later, in a manner contrary to the modern understanding of genetics, populated the planet with a tiny group of individuals and animals that survived a global flood in an unbuildable boat, a flood that killed the dinosaurs in a manner that only *appears* to be 65 million years ago, because the Earth is really only somehow 6000 years old, yet remains, by every objective measure to date indistinguishable from nothing?

so, what exactly is the truth here?

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I am not sure, but religious opinion is not going to cut it for me.