Debate and life

Dialogist

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The universe being created in six days.

OK, that's fair. So your argument would be:

(Premise 1) The Bible says that the universe was created in six days
(Premise 2) Everything the Bible says is true

Therefore:

(Conclusion) The universe was created in six days


Without arguing whether your conclusion is true or false, I would say that your argument is valid, but we cannot say that it is sound, because you would have to also present arguments to support your two premises. So how would you argue:

(1) That the Bible says that the universe was created in six days?

and

(2) Everything the Bible says is true?


Again, I am not disagreeing that either premise is false, but this is a Philosophy forum and not a Theology forum.
 
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quatona

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I understand.

Debates are more about persuading others than changing one's opponent thinking, or beliefs.



Yes.

In asking the question at the start of the thread though I was thinking its easy to become bog down in just debating - one need to have time away from debating to debate, or discuss effectively it seems to me - to have experiences outside of debates, to not spend ones life merely arguing for something.
In my experience this is easier to do in real life than on a forum where many participants are merely trying to defend views they already are commtted to.
 
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AV1611VET

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(Premise 2) Everything the Bible says is true
Let's clarify this premise first.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Can we agree that context must be taken into account as well?

Such as:
  1. Who is talking to whom?
  2. What dispensation is it?
  3. etc.?
 
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Dialogist

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Let's clarify this premise first.

Genesis 2:17 But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.

Genesis 3:4 And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die:


Can we agree that context must be taken into account as well?

Such as:
  1. Who is talking to whom?
  2. What dispensation is it?
  3. etc.?

I'm sorry - I'm not following. Are you saying if we take the verses Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 as premises, they prove the conclusion that everything the Bible says is true?
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm sorry - I'm not following. Are you saying if we take the verses Genesis 2:17 and 3:4 as premises, they prove the conclusion that everything the Bible says is true?
I'm saying let's conclude the Bible says it -- whether you believe it or not -- the Bible at least says it.

That will put you head-and-shoulders above most scientists who post here.
 
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Dialogist

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I'm saying let's conclude the Bible says it -- whether you believe it or not -- the Bible at least says it.

That will put you head-and-shoulders above most scientists who post here.

OK, maybe I should have gone into more detail.

Your argument that the universe was created in six days required two premises to be true:

(Premise 1) The Bible says that the universe was created in six days

(Premise 2) Everything that the Bible says is true


Keeping in mind that this is a philosophical thread and not a theological one, we are just discussing the logic of the argument. For example, you could replace "the Bible" with "X":

(P1) X says the universe was created in six days
(P2) Everything that X says is true

Therefore:

(C) The universe was created in six days

If either of your premises are false, then the conclusion must be false. So someone arguing with you would ask you (perhaps) to prove that X actually does say the universe was created in six days; and to prove that everything that X says is true.

I think asking for proof that the Bible actually says something is meaningful. In this particular case, there is probably not much difference between manuscripts and how the original language word is translated, but that might not always be the case.

I don't actually believe that anyone can "prove" that everything the Bible says is true. It may be someone's foundational belief, but I don't think that anyone can actually logically prove it.

Would you agree?
 
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dms1972

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In my experience this is easier to do in real life than on a forum where many participants are merely trying to defend views they already are commtted to.

The problem seems to be with those discussions designed to draw people in. To keep people debating. I think many seekers, atheists and christians do make a real effort sometimes to find a common ground, and respect each other. And some people need to keep discussing things.

But to christians I would ask when it comes to believing in God, what finally moves someone to Faith? - is it not God's Grace much moreso than any rational argument?. I mean one can produce rational arguments up to a point.

Also some christians are fideists (they believe without knowing for sure) the same is true of atheists - they can be so confident without knowing for sure. Some don't merely say I haven't had that experience you speak about. They in effect are saying because I haven't had it, you must be mentally ill.

Well some people are mentally ill (and who is perfectly sane) or psychologically disturbed and they are relying on Christ, or a Higher Power for recovery, sanity. Is it right to attack that as a being a merely a defence mechanism. Others without faith cope by the bottle, or the TV, or golf... why attack someone who needs faith, why don't atheists go round arguing with everyone?. What way do they cope it could be asked.

I can't see anything come of many of these debates. Maybe one or two, between thoughtful, well read folks who try to understand each other - those I would listen too.

I am not sure that one can provide a irrefutible rational proof of God. One can provide good reasons. But do have proof of something one has to do something even in science. Rational argument proceeds towards certainty then if continued in People will use reason according to what they believe. When a person becomes a christian reason takes a different place and direction, but christians differ in their attitude to reason.

Rational argument proceeds toward increases in a sense of certainty but after a point if continued in it diminishes it again - I wish I could explain that better but its my experience. It doesn't lead to ever increasing sense of certitude.
 
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AV1611VET

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I don't actually believe that anyone can "prove" that everything the Bible says is true. It may be someone's foundational belief, but I don't think that anyone can actually logically prove it.

Would you agree?
Yes -- I agree.

And this is where faith comes into the picture.

I define "faith" as:

Believing something, even if science says otherwise.

And the Bible makes it clear where I got my faith ...

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
 
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Dialogist

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Yes -- I agree.

And this is where faith comes into the picture.

I define "faith" as:

Believing something, even if science says otherwise.

And the Bible makes it clear where I got my faith ...

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Right, but this particular forum is a philosophy, not a theology forum
 
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Davian

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Yes -- I agree.

And this is where faith comes into the picture.

I define "faith" as:

Believing something, even if science says otherwise.

And the Bible makes it clear where I got my faith ...

Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
How circular.
 
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dms1972

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Right, but this particular forum is a philosophy, not a theology forum

For clarity the topic was about debating and life (as in our lives - not origins of life) - rather than to start any particular debate. :)

I was asking in a way whether one needs more than just debating skills to debate, but also about openness to the way things are, or openness to the possibility of being wrong - changing ones position in between debates.

These things probably make one less able for debate, but having a position and defending it constantly in debates may make one less open to reality?
 
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dms1972

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"Life is probably not that difficult to produce", the guy in the video says. So can we expect him to turn out a galaxy or two himself then sometime soon? Sure for God it isn't I'd have to guess. But we're not God - so man should stand in awe at creation. Only has taken us thousands of years and dozens of cosmologies to reach the understanding we have now and still we can't be sure.

Check out Halton Arp's - The Altas of Peculiar Galaxies if you can find a copy.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atlas_of_Peculiar_Galaxies

But not really what I was getting at - not origins but life experience that helps us to see if we are right or wrong. Rather than closed minds - both many convinced atheists and fundamentalists have closed minds. They go on debating and debating but they rarely take time out to let life and reality inform them. Its easy to get caught in a intellectual trap.
 
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