[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Sins of the Ignorant

Albion · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
Theories about what exactly is beyond death aside, this is really a question of justification for judgement. As I indicated before: a person should not be judged for their inability to pick sides, whether for good or bad. It simply isn't reasonable.

What's "reasonable" to our finite minds isn't actually the sole determiner of belief or truth. In fact, what you are relying upon isn't even innate to humans. It is a value that has developed in our Western society and is championed by our society. And only fairly recently at that.

Albion · Sep 16, 2015

Dave RP said:
Thanks for a reasoned response, this is why there are so many religions in the world, we simply don'y know........ Indeed we don't, and if you believe on one of the available gods, then you're comfortable with that, as you are if you don't believe in one of the available gods.

That's true, but I'd also insist that we not simply throw all religious values into the same pot and act as though the differences are nothing but a matter of preference or culture.

Also, I couldn't agree that every aspect of one of these religions (or of Christianity in particular) is to be put off to "I don't know." That was the right answer, IMHO, in this case, to the particular question that the OP asked in this case, is all.

Dialogist · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
One of the biggest pillars of the christian faith is the divine sacrifice of the savior, Jesus, so that people might be saved from the consequences of original sin and instead be delivered to the almighty creator in heaven. In order to receive redemption, one must only believe and accept Christ as his savior (John 3:16 and John 14:6).

The problem arises when one thinks about those who will never have the opportunity to hear about, much less accept, Jesus Christ.

You are presuming that what you state describes the beliefs of all Christians. Without going into the differences between western Christian beliefs and eastern Christian beliefs, I would submit that Christ Himself clearly described how He would determine who would be "delivered" to heaven. He did not say that he would question each person individually, asking "Did you accept me as your saviour?" In fact, while on earth He said quite clearly, Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matthew 7:21):

When the Son of man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, then he will sit on his glorious throne. Before him will be gathered all the nations, and he will separate them one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats,and he will place the sheep at his right hand, but the goats at the left.Then the King will say to those at his right hand, ‘Come, O blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world; for I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, I was a stranger and you welcomed me,I was naked and you clothed me, I was sick and you visited me, I was in prison and you came to me.

’Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me. ’Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:31–46)

Larniavc · Sep 16, 2015

juvenissun said:
Several, all Bible based interpretations.

1. The Heaven has a boundary. Outside the Heaven, it is not Heaven any more. God (normally) can not be seen outside the Heaven. However, beings (angels and humans) in the Heaven can go in and out the Heaven.

Can you appreciate this reason?

Sorry, but I thought you were talking about the lake of fire not being all of Hell, just a location within it. Like New Jersey.

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Albion said:
The more relevant point may be that there is no reason for us TO know. Judgment is entirely up to God--and the Bible is clear enough on that point!

I understand this sentiment very well; proverbs 3:5 right? It's what most Christians, including myself at one point, choose to subscribe to. But while you might feel that you have no reason to know since your divine father will ultimately reward you, I think that it is important, no matter who you are, to question long established philosophies. It's what fuels progress.
Where would we be if a few white people didn't think to question the common sense of the time and help to liberate the slaves who were thought to be lesser people based on passages from the bible? Where would we be if Galileo hadn't questioned the church and refused to yield his stance that the earth revolved around the sun?
I'm not saying Christianity is responsible for all stagnancy, I'm just pointing out the potential ramifications of being an unquestioning follower.

Albion said:
What's "reasonable" to our finite minds isn't actually the sole determiner of belief or truth. In fact, what you are relying upon isn't even innate to humans. It is a value that has developed in our Western society and is championed by our society. And only fairly recently at that.

You're implying that because we weren't initially accustomed to our current "Western" way of thinking (which it wasn't initially ours anyway. It started in and around the Christian holy lands as a matter of fact.) it should be discarded as hearsay? That's a dangerous, and hypocritical way of thinking, I would say. How would one even function in a world such as that? I can give you the answer: just look at how people behaved in pre-christian England, or even during times like the Salem witch trials. I would wager that these people thought less with reason and more with faith than anyone would today. Thankfully, we don't do so... Unless you count the Muslim extremists and the people of North Korea...

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Dialogist said:
In fact, while on earth He said quite clearly, Not every one who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven (Matthew 7:21):

...

’Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry and feed thee, or thirsty and give thee drink? And when did we see thee a stranger and welcome thee, or naked and clothe thee? And when did we see thee sick or in prison and visit thee?’ And the King will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it to one of the least of these my brethren, you did it to me.’

Then he will say to those at his left hand, ‘Depart from me, you cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels; for I was hungry and you gave me no food, I was thirsty and you gave me no drink, I was a stranger and you did not welcome me, naked and you did not clothe me, sick and in prison and you did not visit me. ’Then they also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see thee hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to thee?’ Then he will answer them, ‘Truly, I say to you, as you did it not to one of the least of these, you did it not to me.’ And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
(Matthew 25:31–46)

So then, would your assumption be that those who have never heard about Jesus, and therefore never had the chance to accept or reject him, will be judged based on their works alone? If so, then why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were. If not, then what is your interpretation of the passage above?

Dialogist · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
So then, would your assumption be that those who have never heard about Jesus, and therefore never had the chance to accept or reject him, will be judged based on their works alone? If so, then why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were. If not, then what is your interpretation of the passage above?

Christ has relevance for all because He is the means by which we are reconciled with God. His Incarnation, Death, and Resurrection allows us to become partakers of the Divine Nature (2 Peter 1:4). He came so that we could live life to the fullest extent (John 10:10), as was intended by God, in His image and likeness.

I believe that we are judged, however, according to how we have lived the Gospel as we received it. Rather than view this as a sort of unfair "dispensation" to non-Christians, we might instead recall that having heard the Gospel preached to us, much more will be required of us than non-believers (Luke 12:48).

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Dialogist said:
I believe that we are judged, however, according to how we have lived the Gospel as we received it. Rather than view this as a sort of unfair "dispensation" to non-Christians, we might instead recall that having heard the Gospel preached to us, much more will be required of us than non-believers (Luke 12:48).

It's a firm position to have, and I appreciate that you've cited your sources. But, in this case, I pose my question on you again: why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were.

Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven? Before you answer, please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Chriliman · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
Hello and good evening to you all. I am an atheist. Just thought I'd put that out there right away.
As a former christian and member of a predominantly christian family, I find myself frequently analyzing christian philosophy and asking questions of myself and others to understand various problems with the faith. More often than not, unfortunately, I am met with unsatisfying or even downright... um, unintelligent answers, shall we say. I am hoping that, by posing my question(s) to a wider audience via the internet, I might receive better, more satisfying results.
That said, here is my question:

One of the biggest pillars of the christian faith is the divine sacrifice of the savior, Jesus, so that people might be saved from the consequences of original sin and instead be delivered to the almighty creator in heaven. In order to receive redemption, one must only believe and accept Christ as his savior (John 3:16 and John 14:6).
The problem arises when one thinks about those who will never have the opportunity to hear about, much less accept, Jesus Christ. What will happen to those people? Will they be sent to hell for ignorance? What kind of loving, all powerful god would enforce such a horrific punishment for so unavoidable a crime? Or alternatively, would God have mercy and allow them into heaven, in which case all mention of Jesus should cease so that no one would even have the option to reject him?
Either way, it's a conundrum. One for which christian apologetics, in my view, has failed to provide a good answer. I would hope to get different answers here than that which has already been plastered over the internet so that I don't have to explain my reasoning as to why those explanations don't work; but I will if I must.

I look forward to a reasonable and enlightening discussion.

Why would God punish someone for His lack of conveying His own gift of salvation to them? Since God is just, I think the answer is clear that they would not be punished for what they did not have knowledge of. The "other books" mentioned in revelation may shed light on this issue. The names of those who believe and accept Christ are written in the book of life.

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Chriliman said:
Why would God punish someone for His lack of conveying His own gift of salvation to them? Since God is just, I think the answer is clear that they would not be punished for what they did not have knowledge of. The "other books" mentioned in revelation may shed light on this issue. The names of those who believe and accept Christ are written in the book of life.

Can you cite any piece of scripture for why you feel this way?
Also, please reconcile what I have said previously:

Urlawyer said:
Why not remove all mention of Jesus from history and instead instill good values into subsequent generations; this would provide no opportunity for faith breaking doubt and people would be judged solely by what kind of person they were.

Additionally, do you believe that a person who has never heard of Christ, but has lived a peaceful and just life among his fellow men, unwittingly in alignment with biblical guidelines, will enter heaven? Before you answer, please consider John 14:6; Jesus told him, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me.

Chicken Little · Sep 16, 2015

I vote in this thread for
" He has another plan' which is not an option or even thought of in your pole .. but it is true the only way to his kingdom is through him period.
so it is a lawful plan. I call it the last "as though by fire" plan .. which makes them all or all previous "though by( that same) fire" plans . and the last one is most like purgatory if you call the tribulation and time of wrath "purgatory" which I would never do . .

GoldenBoy89 · Sep 16, 2015

I think the ones who've shown they can be good and have worked hard should be granted amnesty while the rest should be given an easier path towards citizenship. Anyone who's been a creepy prison their whole life should be immediately deported to hell.

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Chicken Little said:
I vote in this thread for
" He has another plan' which is not an option or even thought of in your pole .. but it is true the only way to his kingdom is through him period.
so it is a lawful plan. I call it "the last as though by fire plan" .. which makes them all and all previous "though by( that same) fire" plans . and the last one is most like purgatory if you call the tribulation and time of wrath "purgatory" which I would never do . .

...It's difficult for me to decipher your writing, but if I'm understanding you correctly, you are taking the stance that it is for God to know and for us not to question. In this case, please read this post I put up previously in the thread:

Urlawyer said:
I understand this sentiment very well; proverbs 3:5 right? It's what most Christians, including myself at one point, choose to subscribe to. But while you might feel that you have no reason to know since your divine father will ultimately reward you, I think that it is important, no matter who you are, to question long established philosophies. It's what fuels progress.
Where would we be if a few white people didn't think to question the common sense of the time and help to liberate the slaves who were thought to be lesser people based on passages from the bible? Where would we be if Galileo hadn't questioned the church and refused to yield his stance that the earth revolved around the sun?
I'm not saying Christianity is responsible for all stagnancy, I'm just pointing out the potential ramifications of being an unquestioning follower.

As a side note, the poll was merely for amusement's sake; if you were put in God's role, where would you send such people?

Chicken Little · Sep 16, 2015

that is not what I said.
I said he has another plan and that plan will not go against his offer of salvation to all willing. willing!.

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

GoldenBoy89 said:
I think the ones who've shown they can be good and have worked hard should be granted amnesty while the rest should be given an easier path towards citizenship. Anyone who's been a creepy prison their whole life should be immediately deported to hell.

I'd agree with you, were it not for the endlessness of hell's suffering. I don't want to derail my own thread (maybe I'll put up another one in the future about this) but to address it briefly: I don't think anyone should go to hell for eternity based on a finite life (not even Hitler would deserve that, despite being the utter monster he was).

Chriliman · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
Can you cite any piece of scripture for why you feel this way?
Also, please reconcile what I have said previously:

I'm saying God does not lack in anything. Every person instinctively knows God exists through what God has made. God has created the people in remote parts of the world, therefore, they instinctively know Him.

Romans 1:19-20

Chicken Little · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
I'd agree with you, were it not for the endlessness of hell's suffering. I don't want to derail my own thread (maybe I'll put up another one in the future about this) but to address it briefly: I don't think anyone should go to hell for eternity based on a finite life (not even Hitler would deserve that, despite the utter monster he was).

but there is two kingdom being created, one in the hearts of men and hell and one in hearts of men and heaven. we chose , you chose , there is two tree in everyone garden. we all chose which powers and authorities we submit ourselves too. you and all have chosen in this finite time.
what makes you think you won't like what you created ?

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Chicken Little said:
that is not what I said.
I said he has another plan and that plan will not go against his offer of salvation to all willing. willing!.

Ah, in that case, could you cite any scripture for why you feel this way?
Also, I'm curious as to what exactly you think this other plan God has might be. Care to elaborate?

Urlawyer · Sep 16, 2015

Chriliman said:
I'm saying God does not lack in anything. Every person instinctively knows God exists through what God has made. God has created the people in remote parts of the world, therefore, they instinctively know Him.

Romans 1:19-20

I would beg to differ on this point. If God does indeed exist as you believe, then there is no instinctive "knowing" of him; or, if there is instinctive knowing, it is so insignificant and vague that it might as well not be there anyway.
Consider the Pacific Cargo cults during WWII; they were cut off from the rest of the world and lived very simple lives surrounded by nature or, if you prefer, "God's manifestation". When they saw the planes and other various modern advances of the Allied and Axis forces, they were dumbfounded. They thought they were in the presence of gods. After the soldiers left, the cults built wooden replicas of the planes they saw and mimicked the behavior of the soldiers in hopes of receiving blessings and crate drops from the gods they once saw. If knowledge of God was so instinctual, wouldn't the tribesmen instinctively know that these men and planes were not God? Wouldn't they perhaps, more likely think that they were demons sent to cause chaos?

Chriliman · Sep 16, 2015

Urlawyer said:
I would beg to differ on this point. If God does indeed exist as you believe, then there is no instinctive "knowing" of him; or, if there is instinctive knowing, it is so insignificant and vague that it might as well not be there anyway.
Consider the Pacific Cargo cults during WWII; they were cut off from the rest of the world and lived very simple lives. When they saw the planes and other various modern advances of the Allied and Axis forces, they were dumbfounded. They thought they were in the presence of gods. After the soldiers left, the cults built wooden replicas of the planes they saw and mimicked the behavior of the soldiers in hopes of receiving blessings and crate drops from the gods they once saw. If knowledge of God was so instinctual, wouldn't the tribesmen instinctively know that these men and planes were not God? Wouldn't they perhaps, more likely think that they were demons sent to cause chaos?

Profound clarity can come through suffering.

The fact that those people created images of what they thought were gods does not mean those people died not realizing who the true God is.

[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] Sins of the Ignorant

Where SHOULD the people who've died without ever hearing the good news go?

God is love; Send them to heaven!

The only way is through Jesus Christ; To the pit they go!

Give them a chance, not the full reward right away; Purgatory!

It's not my problem/I don't believe; Pawn them off on Zeus!

I don't know.

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