I notice the "the beast" was already fallen, already evil, already working against Gods will for Adam and Eve.
Upvote
0
Did God create evil?
- Thread starter DrBubbaLove
- Start date
I notice the "the beast" was already fallen, already evil, already working against Gods will for Adam and Eve.
Maybe but, if there was nothing (in) Adam for the serpent to work off of, then that would have never been either.
Such as:
Joh 14:30 Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.
Upvote
0
If I understand this correctly, since Adam and Eve arrived on earth as full grown adults, educated and instructed in Gods will for the pair, spoke the same language as the beast. It they didn't know Gods will then they would not have sinned?
Upvote
0
I don't think Adam knew what death was do you? After all, this is what the serpent tempted him with. He knew God said not to eat, and if he did he would die. But as far as his understanding fully of what that was...I don't think so.
The same as today, many still believe that when God told Adam he would die, that He meant laying down this physical body, and is still a deception that the serpent uses on many. Many still don't know what God means by die or death.
And if ....by The Law IS The Knowledge of sin.....Then what did Adam really eat of?
Upvote
0
Yes, I know that Adam knew what the loss of immortality meant, he would become like one of us, he would surely die. After the sin Adam and Eve, having defaulted of their trust as the worlds new leaders, lost the use of "the tree of life" which sustained their mortal bodies.
God had a plan of redemption for the fallen, populated world that Adam and Eve arrived on, but they became impatient and were outflanked by the "crafty beast" who was their high predecessor.
Adam And Eve had to already know what death meant:
Genesis 3New International Version (NIV)
The Fall
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
The Fall
3 Now the serpent was more crafty than any of the wild animals the Lord God had made. He said to the woman, “Did God really say, ‘You must not eat from any tree in the garden’?”
2 The woman said to the serpent, “We may eat fruit from the trees in the garden, but God did say, ‘You must not eat fruit from the tree that is in the middle of the garden, and you must not touch it, or you will die.
4 “You will not certainly die,” the serpent said to the woman.
Upvote
0
Phantasman
Newbie
No, you don't understand what I'm saying.....so never mind.
You follow a correct line of thinking in my opinion.
If Adam had to eat at all, would he die if he stopped eating? Did he have to eat to live? If the body was free of death, why did he even have to eat?
Adam transgressed. He went beyond the limits of his limited knowledge of truth. Truth of what he was and who God was.
His bodily shame showed up when he knew the truth. He had a soul and body. He was enslaved by the creator of both. When he transgressed, he received the spirit. The spirit of the Father is what makes you alive.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Check the Hebrew scriptures to see where spirit and truth are together. Then check the knowledge of Christ gave through all gospel books and see how it stands above all on it's own.
John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.
If Christ is the answer, brought the truth, and is truth......why go to a time before him seeking truth?
Upvote
0
he-man
he-man
What does evil really mean? H7451 ra` rah
wrongful, the opposite of flawleddly upright. Job 1:1. which Job 19:21 says that God interviened, "Job 19:21 Pity me, pity me, ye my friends, For the hand of God hath stricken against me."
So did God do it through one of the "Sons" of God? Job 19:6 Know now, that God turned me upside down, And His net against me hath set round.
What then is the purpose of the story of Job? Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil [הרע]? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
You must understand the true meaning of the word parable here: Job 27:1 Moreover Job continued his parable [משלו a simile] and said, 2 s God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;
This is a hyperbole and not to be taken literally!
Upvote
0
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
hillsage,
1. These scriptures of God creating evil has to do with calamities for it rains on the just and the unjust and God is the one who is a man of war and brings judgement of natural disasters etc. His purpose in these scriptures have to do with judgement.
2. In the context of God creating evil referring to creating sin is not true.
Because God deals with freewill agents who must have to make a freewill choice is why Lucifer chose to sin. He was perfect until iniquity was found in him. Ezekiel 28:15.
Just because evil was a possibility does not mean that God actually created evil or sin itself as he cannot sin or be blamed for sin. This type of argument is an indirect way to blame God for sin and that we do not have freewill choice and is not found in the contexts of scripture. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
- Jun 12, 2009
- 5,244
- 1,767
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Charismatic
- Marital Status
- Married
You said calamities scripture says evil. Pretty cut and dried IMO.
And you might want to have a talk with Job when you get there and tell him loosing everything he had to Satan was really just missing a good rain.
Job 2:10 But he said unto her, Thou speakest as one of the foolish women speaketh. What? shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive EVIL? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.
BTW you do know everything done to Job came from Satan...right?
And WHO visits iniquity into people....according to scripture?
Freewill isn't defensible in scripture. It's another orthodox belief with lots of debate from those understanding "predestination".
My opinion based on scripture;
Romans 11:32 For God has consigned/sugkleio all men to disobedience, that he may have mercy upon all.
GAL 3:22 But the scripture hath concluded/sugkleio all under sin,
4788 sugkleio {soong-kli'-o}:from 4862 and 2808
(1) to shut up together, enclose
(1.a) of a shoal of fishes in a net[/quote]
Last edited:
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Aug 8, 2004
- 11,336
- 1,728
- 64
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Even Plato in discussing whether everything that is can be attributed to a force could only admit that if it was so, that force could not be evil - it had to be benevolent. So however else one wants to render Scripture, the idea that one can say God is All Good and also "creates" evil is obviously contrary to logic/reason according to even pagans. To say otherwise requires one to either abandon the notion that God is Good or explain how one is a smarter philosopher than Plato in being able to present how Good could be said to act against itself in creating that which is not Good.
Spouting that one understands Scripture as saying so is not a "proof" that one's position is true. If it were "proof", then we could all individually be arbitrators of reading Scripture and proclaiming what we understand from it as being "true" - those dancing with pit vipers today do the same. The orthodox admitting God allows suffering does not require us to lay the cause of it at His feet - nor does saying He is the first cause of all that is require us to say He created evil. What He created was Very Good, to imagine it could have been better means one is stating did NOT do the best He could have - stated another way His Creative acts were not Perfect.
Most orthodox Christians hold that God's having created some creatures with a freedom to choose whether to be what He made them to be or not, means evil had to be a potential - not a necessity - in making such creatures. We can see evil was not a necessity - meaning evil is not required if creatures with such freedom are created, because not all such creatures God made chose to not be what He made them to be. Only 1/3 of the angels are said to have rebelled.
The lesson from Job is not that God creates evil, but that no matter what happens to us - God loves us and if we love Him will always be with us and is in control. So the Jews had (some still do and Job expresses it), a particular saying that no matter what comes - good or bad - they thank God for it and they view both suffering and gain with the same thanks. The same concept is taught in the NT from the Apostles that Christians are to give thanks for ALL things - not just our blessings/good things that happen to us. Part of Job's being able to do that is actually an acknowledgement that God is Good, and so no matter what happens to those who Love Him, He has either caused or allowed it - so what ever "is" can only be for our personal benefit or greater Good and that true whether we can see it or not - thus we are suppose to give thanks for it all.
This orthodox view of Job is of course opposed to the thought God creates evil and the idea He does would also support what Job's friends invited him to do and falsely accused Job about. Since Job never listened to his friends, refused to curse God or admit fault, it should be rather obvious that their positions were false compared to Job's constant position - which means it cannot be true that God creates evil is a lesson from that story.
Upvote
0
FredVB
Regular Member
- Mar 11, 2010
- 4,534
- 926
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
It is not so cut and dry. Yahweh God is perfect, with creation from God reflecting just that, but we fallen creatures have such a bad perspective of that. We won't tend to see all God's goodness being all good. We would then favor some of it as good and the rest that there must be we see as evil. This from our fallenness is with our rebellion against God. In the same way our ancestors Adam and Eve did not trust God when they were told there was something preferable for them. This is not faith in God. Yahweh God's goodness consists of such characteristics without limit along with having all knowledge as love, compassion, grace, mercy, and perfect righteousness with God's own perfect standards. None of us who are fallen creatures meet such standards. Though such that to us appear innocent suffer in this world with curse from our rebellion of sin, we are responsible and what God sees which is true is that none from among humanity, which is fallen with sin, is fully innocent. We see calamities come that we see as evil, but we are subject to such in this fallen condition in this world. The only way of deliverance is through redemption with our repentence, that God made available to all among humanity, through Christ, with our faith. An eternity of bliss in relationship with God, that is available in Christ, is available with that and awaits those coming to it, with a restored world that creation groans for in hope.
Upvote
0
- Aug 8, 2004
- 11,336
- 1,728
- 64
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
I never suggested our view is perfect.
Am suggesting it is impossible to imagine a Perfect Good and in the same breath suggest a portion of evil (less good make more sense to me) is measurable or expected as part of something imagined to be a Perfect Good. To me that makes no sense. Neither would it make sense to say a Perfect Being, with Perfect Will, Who is Good, is going to set His Will against Himself - which is required if one imagines God creates evil (the relative absence of Good).
Upvote
0
FredVB
Regular Member
- Mar 11, 2010
- 4,534
- 926
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
My post was more as a response to Hillsage. Evil seen in creation from Yahweh is indeed just from our perspective which is flawed with our fallenness. Evil which is not of the perfection of God certainly cannot come from God.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
jerry kelso
Food For Thought
[/QUOTE]
[/QUOTE]
hillsage,
1. Upon your reasoning you would believe that Paul literally died physically everyday or died to self or sin each day in 1 Corinthians 15. You would be wrong in both accounts.
2. Isaiah 45:7; I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Creating darkness and creating evil are about judgement. John 1:5; And the light shineth in darkness; and the darkness comprehended it not.
1 John 1 says there is no darkness in him at all.
Darkness is the opposite of light. Sin brings darkness which brings judgement for sin's darkness. This is the context and the proper way to understand this passage.
3. God allowed the hedge to be dropped from Job save his life. Job understood that it rains on the just and the unjust. He demonstrates this by asking in a form of a question: What? shall we not receive good at the hand of God and shall we not receive evil?
4. Job avoids evil but yet you seem to imply God created evil as in sin. Man has responsibility in his or hers relationship with God and that is to make a freewill choice to serve him and be blessed or choose to make an unwise freewill choice and suffer the consequence of evil deeds.
5. God allowed Satan to strike Job with the boils etc. Visiting iniquity on the people is about judgement on those who sin.
6. Freewill choice is a fact and God will not violate that right that comes from dealing with freewill people. The highest form of love which is agape love has to be based on full freewill choice of the individual. For God to dictate everything whether we choose to or not choose to would destroy God's reason to show the devil that he can create freewill people that will serve him of their own freewill choice forever and not bow to him. If you recall Satan was a created being and had freewill choice for iniquity was not in him originally until he sinned.
7. Romans 11:32 says concluded them all in unbelief and not consigned them all in unbelief. He concluded because Adam sinned and then the rest of the race was born in sin and needed mercy of a Savior.
Consigned them would mean that God put them all in unbelief which is totally out of context and ridiculous. The only way God would have consigned them in unbelief would be because they sinned and that would be righteous judgement.
Your opinion based on scripture is an opinion that is not based in fact. God creates evil as in calamities that have to do with sin and judgement. Calamities can be anything from natural disasters such as earthquakes, tornadoes floods etc. to things such as the jews going into captivity etc. They are a result of the fall of man and sin coming into the world and God controls them all and he rains on the just and the unjust both for judgement on sinners and believers when they are disobedient. Jerry Kelso
Upvote
0
Did you have a choice to be born into this world a sinner?
Since it is plain through scripture that All have sinned and come short of the Glory of God.
And since it is also plain through scripture that we were made subject to vanity "not willingly"....
And since it is also plain that it was by one man that sin entered this world and death by sin passed upon us all.
none of these things was our choice.
As in Adam All die, is that a choice? In Christ All shall be made Alive is that a choice?
When God was in Christ Reconciling the world unto Himself.....Where were you in your choices?
Upvote
0
- Aug 8, 2004
- 11,336
- 1,728
- 64
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Actually the belief is not that we are born sinners, as in already guilty of some sin, but we are born with a fallen nature. And no, that is not the same thing. We are born, unlike Jesus (or Mary), being inclined to sin. Without God's help (Grace) we cannot help doing what we know we should not do. As Saint Paul describes it, we are at war with our self internally our entire life here. Unlike the suggestion made here in UR world that God creates evil, the orthodox view holds Adam and Eve were not created already having that internal struggle. It is only because of Adam's first sin that we are all born this way. Unlike our individual personal sins which are a free choice of our will, we are not to blame for the "Original sin" which causes the "stain" on our nature (fallen) and makes us inclined to sin from our birth.
So while it is true we are subject "unwillingly" to the fallen state of the entire race simply because we are born human, that does not mean we don't have choices. It is only those choices we each make that condemns each of us and from which He made reconciliation possible with His victory over the death sin brought.
Upvote
0
FredVB
Regular Member
- Mar 11, 2010
- 4,534
- 926
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Christian
- Marital Status
- Single
I don't know any scriptures definitely saying Mary was without a sin nature, rather there was her speaking of her need for her Redeemer, but we humans all who are born are certainly not guilty of sin already, but have the sin nature that has us needing the redemption Christ came to give us. When we do sin we need to come to repentance for that.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
- Aug 8, 2004
- 11,336
- 1,728
- 64
- Faith
- Catholic
- Marital Status
- Married
- Politics
- US-Others
Am Catholic, so I had to throw that in there. And no, as Catholics, we are not bound to only what is definitive/detailed in Scripture, however the angels greeting of Mary is at least supportive of the teaching, which the early Church supported as well and we accept it as a teaching of the Apostles. Most notably this (and most of what we know about Her) would come from Saint John who is said, of all the Apostles, to have spent the most time with Mary until Her death.
It is not like we all don't have beliefs not explicit in the Bible, the Trinity would be a notable example. We Catholics do have much more of those examples because we hold that there is a body of teachings passed down to us from the Apostles which we hold to be God's Word because of Whom gave it to them and on equal standing with Sacred Scripture.
At least hopefully we could agree that Jesus was born without a blemish on His human soul/inclination to sin (which does not mean He could not be tempted by the way.)
Upvote
0
Similar threads
