Paul Vs James

EPHRIAM777 · Feb 27, 2003

OK....for this we're gonna need our Bibles...it might get pretty long..!

POST # 1..

Who from scripture was correct in their teaching of Biblical truths...Was Paul correct...or was James...??

The subject to me is an OIL and WATER type issue...Because BOTH can't be right...!

I say that JAMES was in charge of the Jerusalem sect of Judizer / Pharisees who were "believers"...that are mentioned in ACTS 15:1:2..15:5...GAL 1:18..2:1:9...2:11:14...!

James was the one who sent those people that started trouble for Paul..Notice in ACTS 15:1..these men quote MOSES as their spiritual source of information...They were from the church at Jerusalem Acts 15:4..

What these guys were doing was ADDING Moses and the OT Law..to the Gosple message of Jesus Christ.. ( much like some of the Messianic Judiasm people do )...In Acts 15:7 Peter gives his thoughts on the matter and quotes GOD as his spiritual authority..

James in Acts 15:21....gives his Spiritual Authority in his answer..and that authority is MOSES...just like the men used Moses in !5:1 as theirs.!

Paul never went along with this first "Church Council" or it's rulings...As GAL 2:11:14 points out..!

EPHRIAM777 · Feb 27, 2003

EPHRIAM777 writes...

POST # 2..!

Paul withstood Peter right to his face the scripture says...because He ate and drank everything in sight while the "James Boys" weren't there...GAL 2:11:14...But once they showed up..Peter was feared them..( why he would "fear them" while HE was the Apostle called by Jesus is another thread )...But Paul says the truth of the Gosple was at stake..Peter was being two faced... Eating and drinking whatever he wanted..Then when the "James boys" showed up..Peter went back to "playin Christian" in front of them...!

Now How was James and Paul in direct opposition to each other...??

Paul was a TORAH Scholar..he was numero uno in his class...and "sat at the feet of Gamaliel" ACTS 22:3....who was a doctor of the Law...Gamaliel had a PhD in Torah...ACTS 5:34...Paul being the best student..was chosen to round up Christians...!

Paul was also taught by Jesus Christ himself...Jesus was his private tutor on Torah.....ACTS 26:16...and GAL 1:11...!

James..was the son of a carpenter...a common laborer...and according to scripture..nothing is said of his Torah training...! He was NOT chosen to be an Apostle by Jesus Christ...!

James was a relative of Jesus Christ....NOT a follower of Jesus while he was alive... he was a "believer" afterwards when Jesus appeared to him...and chosen to be a leader of the Jerusalem church...!

EPHRIAM777 · Feb 27, 2003

Eph writes...!

POST # 3....!

Paul starts his GAL letter by saying HE is called Apostle...called directly by Jesus Christ and this letter is for the "churches"...GAL 1:1..

James says he is a "servant" of God..and of the Lord Jesus Christ...and says THIS Epistle is meant for the "12 tribes" that are scattered...JAMES 1:1

Paul's first thought is to relay GRACE and PEACE to the churches..GAL 1:3..

James 's first though is to relay "joy in your tempations" when you fall into them...No mention of grace or peace from him...Jesus commanded us to pray in MATT 6:13.."lead us NOT into temptation"...notas James says "have joy when you fall into them"....correct...?

So on that one I side with what Jesus and Paul say...not James...!
1:7

James 2:5 says "hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith"...

YES James God did...but he also chose the RICH too...not just the poor..SEE MATT 27:57...God chooses from ALL walks of life..not just poor people.....Jesus said "the poor you will have with you always"...So being poor isn't the critera James...RICH in Faith is the critera...!

James 2:21 says "Abraham was justified by works when he had offered Isaac"...

No James he was NOT justified by works...

Please turn in your Bibles to GEN 15:6..FAITH is what justified Abraham wayyy before he offered Isaac...PLUS GEN 22:5 says that before Abraham ever stepped foot on the Mt...he made a declaration of FAITH saying "I and the lad WILL go yonder and worship..AND COME again to you..

Abraham knew that he was going to sacrifice Isaac...but he "faithed" that God would some how raise him up...

What does PAUL say about this in contrast to what James said..??

Turn quickly to ROMANS 4:2:3...no mention of offering Isaac is made by Paul when speaking of Abe...just like no mention of that in GEN 15...!

So I side again with Paul for giving the correct quote from the OT on this matter...James not being a trained Scholar..taught by Jesus Christ himself...made an error in his Epistle...!

But again James was no Apostle called directly by Jesus Christ OR a Torah Scholar...so he's apt to make a few mistakes just like I am....

Paul was an Apostle..the HIGHEST Trained human RABBI ever to walk upon the earth...

HIS application and quoting from the OT is flawless...

EPHRIAM777 · Feb 27, 2003

Eph writes...

POST #4...

James 2:25 James claims that the same held true for RAHAB...saying she also was "justified by her works"...ONLY when she recieved the messengers and sent them out another way"

Rahab's "work" according to JOSHUA 2:3:4...was to LIE to the Kings men and send them the wrong way'..So James is saying a HARLOT was justified by her work..'harlotry"..and by lying to the Kings men..and thus the King...!

I disagree...Lets see what scripture has to say about this..

HEB 11:31 says Rahab acted by FAITH...just like Abraham did...Joshua 2:9 is where you can find Rahab's statement of FAITH...

So she like Abraham..was justifed by FAITH..not by works..!

As PAUL said in ROMANS 3:28...

EPHRIAM777 · Feb 27, 2003

POST # 5...

Another stumbling block between Sound Biblical teaching that PAUL gave...and what James wrote..can be found in the contrasts of

GAL 3:10:11..VS James 2:14..!

GAL 4:21:26...Is Paul addressing the JAMES Boys and what they were like...calling them HAGAR..born after the flesh...they are the "Jerusalem that is now"...As opposed to "Jerusalem that is free..( V 26 )...the mother of US all...IE those who follow what PAUL was teaching...

Paul goes on to point out in GAL 5:1:6...that the James boys and what they taught about "being circumcised" in ACTS 15:1...and as the Pharisees said MOSES taught ACTS 15:5..was not necessary..!

Again PAUL was dealing with this problem and didn't win a victory for the entire CHURCH.....This battle of works VS faith...continues to this day..1

I side with PAUL..and with Jesus on it

So why is James IN the Bible..???

GOD made sure that WE today have a clear..accurate...record..of what was going on in the First century Church..and the battles in the council at Jerusalem at that time...

We have Paul's record of events and exactly what HE was teaching....God made sure we ALSO have a clear accurate record of what JAMES was like...and what HE was teaching....So we from God's accurate true word ..and can read scripture of BOTH...to LEARN from the mistakes that James preached back then...and not make the same mistakes as he did...!

We can read Paul's words...along side James words...THEN be as the Bereans of Acts 17 were...and see for ourselves the differences in the two...!

James "at times" was wrong in the things he taught...When looking at the OT record..and Jesus's Gosples..and Paul's letters..!

brewmama · Feb 28, 2003

Hmm, so now the sola scriptura boys are rejecting the scripture that they don't like.

You COULD just realize that there is not a contradiction between them. When you look at the fullness of the historic faith, there is no contradiction.

dnich163 · Feb 28, 2003

I guess you are saying that you back Paul then.
This seems right to me from what I understand. It certainly ties in with the history of the church; Paul with the book and Peter with the keys of the kingdom.

David

Blackhawk · Feb 28, 2003

27th February 2003 at 04:01 PM EPHRIAM777 said this in Post #1

OK....for this we're gonna need our Bibles...it might get pretty long..!

POST # 1..

Who from scripture was correct in their teaching of Biblical truths...Was Paul correct...or was James...??

The subject to me is an OIL and WATER type issue...Because BOTH can't be right...!

I say that JAMES was in charge of the Jerusalem sect of Judizer / Pharisees who were "believers"...that are mentioned in ACTS 15:1:2..15:5...GAL 1:18..2:1:9...2:11:14...!

James was the one who sent those people that started trouble for Paul..Notice in ACTS 15:1..these men quote MOSES as their spiritual source of information...They were from the church at Jerusalem Acts 15:4..

What these guys were doing was ADDING Moses and the OT Law..to the Gosple message of Jesus Christ.. ( much like some of the Messianic Judiasm people do )...In Acts 15:7 Peter gives his thoughts on the matter and quotes GOD as his spiritual authority..

James in Acts 15:21....gives his Spiritual Authority in his answer..and that authority is MOSES...just like the men used Moses in !5:1 as theirs.!

Paul never went along with this first "Church Council" or it's rulings...As GAL 2:11:14 points out..!

The problem is that James rejects the thoughts of the judiazers in the two verses before Acts 15:21

Acts 15:19-20
19 "Therefore it is my judgment that we do not trouble those who are turning to God from among the Gentiles,
20 but that we write to them that they abstain from things contaminated by idols and from fornication and from what is strangled and from blood.
(NAU)

So he said that they did not need to be circumcised right there in Acts 15.  So your point that James was a judiazers is obviously wrong from the main text. 

Blackhawk · Feb 28, 2003

27th February 2003 at 04:42 PM EPHRIAM777 said this in Post #3

Eph writes...!

POST # 3....!

Paul starts his GAL letter by saying HE is called Apostle...called directly by Jesus Christ and this letter is for the "churches"...GAL 1:1..

James says he is a "servant" of God..and of the Lord Jesus Christ...and says THIS Epistle is meant for the "12 tribes" that are scattered...JAMES 1:1

Paul's first thought is to relay GRACE and PEACE to the churches..GAL 1:3..

James 's first though is to relay "joy in your tempations" when you fall into them...No mention of grace or peace from him...Jesus commanded us to pray in MATT 6:13.."lead us NOT into temptation"...notas James says "have joy when you fall into them"....correct...?

So on that one I side with what Jesus and Paul say...not James...!
1:7

James 2:5 says "hath not God chosen the poor of this world rich in faith"...

YES James God did...but he also chose the RICH too...not just the poor..SEE MATT 27:57...God chooses from ALL walks of life..not just poor people.....Jesus said "the poor you will have with you always"...So being poor isn't the critera James...RICH in Faith is the critera...!

James 2:21 says "Abraham was justified by works when he had offered Isaac"...

No James he was NOT justified by works...

Please turn in your Bibles to GEN 15:6..FAITH is what justified Abraham wayyy before he offered Isaac...PLUS GEN 22:5 says that before Abraham ever stepped foot on the Mt...he made a declaration of FAITH saying "I and the lad WILL go yonder and worship..AND COME again to you..

Abraham knew that he was going to sacrifice Isaac...but he "faithed" that God would some how raise him up...

What does PAUL say about this in contrast to what James said..??

Turn quickly to ROMANS 4:2:3...no mention of offering Isaac is made by Paul when speaking of Abe...just like no mention of that in GEN 15...!

So I side again with Paul for giving the correct quote from the OT on this matter...James not being a trained Scholar..taught by Jesus Christ himself...made an error in his Epistle...!

But again James was no Apostle called directly by Jesus Christ OR a Torah Scholar...so he's apt to make a few mistakes just like I am....

Paul was an Apostle..the HIGHEST Trained human RABBI ever to walk upon the earth...

HIS application and quoting from the OT is flawless...

Paul and James were both right because they were speaking about two different things. Paul was saying that salvation is by grace through faith.  James does not disagree but shows that this faith is one that produces fruit.  A faith that does not produce fruit is not the faith that Paul or James ever spoke about concerning salvation.  James said that others can tell that we are Christians by our furits.  In this he was speakng like John did in 1 John when he said that they will know we are Christians by our love.  Paul does not disagree with this and proves this by his life.  I will go into more if you want a discussion on this but I believe the Bible is clear that the two were not in disagreement but instead their divinely inspired writings work together to give us a more complete view of God and Christ than either one could of on their own. 

EPHRIAM777 · Mar 2, 2003

brewmama said

Hmm, so now the sola scriptura boys are rejecting the scripture that they don't like.

You COULD just realize that there is not a contradiction between them. When you look at the fullness of the historic faith, there is no contradiction.

Eph replies...

Brewmama..that is an intresting name to pick..!

Hmm...??

Well anyway..."brewmama" ...it seems to me...that you have me confused with some child you might have written to...!

I noticed quickly "BM"...that in your response ...you avoided EVERY point I made in my posts..and just gave a quick general blanket answer that being very vague mind you... and without any information or verses to add support to your thoughts ...Did nothing to refute anything I posted.....

Basically BM...it made no sence..!

...and here's why...!

For example...please start with defining just what the "fullness of historic faith"...means to you...and just WHO it is you rely on to provide you WITH it..?

It might be that you have "given over" to a group that may not HAVE the historic faith..in all it's "fullness"...! OR you might be in one that claims they DO...but they don't...! I mean IF your gonna say that...back it up...!

PLUS...I didn't say ever ....that I didn't LIKE it...!

So lets review what I did say...BM...!

I said we could LEARN something from it and that it certainly IS God's word to us....I also said "at times"...James was wrong in his Epistle AND gave examples of where I feel his is in error..That doesn't mean I don't like him...He did the best he could..with the limited knowledge he had...!

So why say I "reject it" in your post..I don't reject it...OR that I don't like it....and then offer NO solid information to back up what YOU post...??

EPHRIAM777 · Mar 2, 2003

dnich163

I guess you are saying that you back Paul then.
This seems right to me from what I understand. It certainly ties in with the history of the church; Paul with the book and Peter with the keys of the kingdom.

David [/B]

Eph replies...

I back the weight of scripture on this....Paul never agreed to that council at Jerusalem...and the rest of his letters support that..1 TIM is clear for example...1 TIM 4:3:4...is a direct violation of that Jerusalem council..

Paul says eat ANY meat you want..every creature is of God is good..ect ect...This letter was written near the end of his ministry...!

Nor should we....What was imposed on the "church" at that council was the KOSHER dietary laws of the OT...James was still clinging to his "Judiasm"...and Moses...Not Jesus...!

EPHRIAM777 · Mar 2, 2003

Double posted

1-peter5-9 · Mar 26, 2003

Your post and this whole thread implies that James and Paul were the leaders of individual groups that were at war with each other.

The truth is that they were all part of the early church, and both wrote books of the Bible that do not at all contradict each other.  The book of Acts is very specific about everything that happened in those days, and I think if there was a rift between Paul and James, it would have been spoken of.  If all Scripture is inspired by the Spirit of God, I don't think they were at odds with each other since they were both used by the same Spirit.

The only case of conflict between Paul and anyone that is clearly spoken of in Scripture, is found in Acts 15:36-40, where Paul had issues with Barnabas because Barnabas insisted that they bring along John Mark to strengthen the churches they had planted already, and Paul didn't think that was wise because John Mark had left them in Pamphylia and "not gone with them to the work." It says the "the contention became so sharp that they departed from one another," and went separate ways, preaching.

If the Bible is so clear about this situation, wouldn't it clearly just go ahead and talk about there being a division between Paul and James?

I'm pretty sure both of these men who wrote entire books of the Holy Bible will be in heaven together, and with much fruit from their labor.

Paul Vs James

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