[MOVED] Barbershop fined $750 for refusing to cut woman's hair

bhsmte said:

In a case like this, when a fine has already been applied and unless the fine was applied with zero support by those applying the fine, my default position would be to not take anyone at their word and to discover the facts.

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The facts presently do not suggest or indicate the barber did lie in making his statement he didn't have tools to cut women's hair. Presently, there is no reasonable basis to think the barber lied. The default position, reasonably, should not be to assume the barber has lied as there aren't any facts indicating dishonesty and no reasonable basis to believe the barber was dishonest.

NotreDame said:

The facts presently do not suggest or indicate the barber did lie in making his statement he didn't have tools to cut women's hair. Presently, there is no reasonable basis to think the barber lied. The default position, reasonably, should not be to assume the barber has lied as there aren't any facts indicating dishonesty and no reasonable basis to believe the barber was dishonest.

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I have seen no facts to demonstrate whether this barber did or didn't have the tools to perform the service the women wanted, either way.

None, nada.

The only fact I have, is the barber saying his is paying the fine.

trunks2k said:

It doesn't matter.

What matters is if she asked for a style that he would have had no problem giving to a man. When have you EVER heard of women inherently needing special tools to style their hair? I have never heard of such a thing. It's ridiculous on the surface of it and considering throughout my entire life I've seen stylists and barbers use the same exact tools to cut my male hair as they use to cut women's hair there's no reason to think there is.

If there is, indeed, special magical tools that I have never heard of being mentioned or used in my entire life that are necessary to cut women's hair and this barber doesn't have them, then he has a solid reason to not give his service to women.

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Based on my level of experience and expertise in this area, which is identical to your own, limited to visiting a barber shop/hair stylist, "It" may matter.

If there is, indeed, special magical tools that I have never heard of being mentioned or used in my entire life that are necessary to cut women's hair and this barber doesn't have them, then he has a solid reason to not give his service to women.

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And maybe, under these facts, this may just be the case. Maybe cutting a fade/wave for a woman is perhaps different than cutting a wave/fade for a man necessitating different tools. The fact is, I do not know, you really do not know, but pawning off your statements as fact in which such statements are based on nothing other than your patronage to a barber shop/hair stylist business, is not sufficient to reject the barber's statement he did not have the tools to cut women's hair.

I'd like to know more, from someone who has actually worked in this field, as opposed to someone giving the outward appearance their statements are fact but have no experience or expertise in the area, other than to pay someone to cut their hair.

bhsmte said:

I have seen no facts to demonstrate whether this barber did or didn't have the tools to perform the service the women wanted, either way.

None, nada.

The only fact I have, is the barber saying his is paying the fine.

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Great. I have the barber paying a fine. I have a barber's statement he did not have the tools to cut women's hair. The two are not contradictory.

It was stated here that the barber suggested other places she could go, and offered to pay for the cut. I think that is a very reasonable approach. Absent a proof that he stated something that was untrue, it makes sense to believe what he said, especially considering he was willing to pay for the job to be done elsewhere.

It may have been a policy that had more to do with the way men and women react to the job they get done on their hair. If he had experience trying that before, or merely had heard enough from others, he may have simply opted for NOT doing something he was convinced would not be counted satisfactory by the customer. Typical (and even generous) response to the situation.

NotreDame said:

Great. I have the barber paying a fine. I have a barber's statement he did not have the tools to cut women's hair. The two are not contradictory.

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Since businesses are not required to perform services they do not provide, because they either do not have the equipment and or the required skill to do so, I find it highly contradictory he is willing to pay the fine.

NotreDame said:

The facts presently do not suggest or indicate the barber did lie in making his statement he didn't have tools to cut women's hair. Presently, there is no reasonable basis to think the barber lied. The default position, reasonably, should not be to assume the barber has lied as there aren't any facts indicating dishonesty and no reasonable basis to believe the barber was dishonest.

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He does have the tools to cut women's hair. He does not have the tools to properly provide certain styles of haircut, but that would apply to both men and women who wanted styles he couldn't provide. The statement that he doesn't have the tools to cut women's hair is false. Whether it's a lie, per se, is debateable.

bhsmte said:

Since businesses are not required to perform services they do not provide, because they either do not have the equipment and or the required skill to do so, I find it highly contradictory he is willing to pay the fine.

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His paying a fine is not contradictory to his statement he does not have the tools to cut women's hair. A contradiction, the very definition of the word, means the two cannot both be true, both could be false, or one or the other is true/false. Here, him paying the fine can be true and his statement he does not have the tools can also be true. Hence, no contradiction between the two.

Furthermore, there are a plethora of possibilities, none of them having anything to do with whether he does have tools to cut women's hair, to explain why he is paying the fine.

As stated previously, there is no evidence or reasonable basis to conclude the barber was dishonest with his assertion he lacked the tools to cut women's hair.

Skaloop said:

He does have the tools to cut women's hair. He does not have the tools to properly provide certain styles of haircut, but that would apply to both men and women who wanted styles he couldn't provide. The statement that he doesn't have the tools to cut women's hair is false. Whether it's a lie, per se, is debateable.

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Does he? How do you know? What is the basis of your knowledge?

I'd like to know more, such as what kind of hair did the female patron have, i.e. long, short, medium, and what is needed to cut a wave/fade in relation to length of hair, men's hair, women's hair, etcetera?

NotreDame said:

Does he? How do you know? What is the basis of your knowledge?

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The basis of my knowledge is that he is a professional barber, and professional barbers have tools to cut hair. Are you suggesting that a professional barber does not have scissors and/or clippers suitable for cutting hair?

NotreDame said:

Does he? How do you know? What is the basis of your knowledge?

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I go to a Great Clips to get my hair cut and my daughters sometimes come along. They use the same equipment on my hair, they use on my daughters hair. They use the same scissors that are on the counter, they don't go fishing in the drawer for anything different.

Now, if a real specialty cut is asked for, there may be a need for a piece of equipment a male barbershop would not have. Also and I think most important, is the experience and skill required to cut women's hair and to deliver a certain look. I have heard nothing about this barbershop lacking the experience or skill though, only the equipment.

Skaloop said:

The basis of my knowledge is that he is a professional barber, and professional barbers have tools to cut hair. Are you suggesting that a professional barber does not have scissors and/or clippers suitable for cutting hair?

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No I am asking you for your basis of knowledge of what is needed, not needed, to cut women's hair, whether it is different for men?

In the more narrow context of this dialogue, I know I quoted the barber several posts back, the barber said:

I blame myself for getting away from the wording of the barber equating "cutting" with the word "do." However, does he have the equipment to "do" women's hair? Does he have the equipment to cut a fade/wave for a woman? He says he doesn't.

NotreDame said:

Does he have the equipment to cut a fade/wave for a woman? He says he doesn't.

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That's not what he said. He didn't say "I don't have the equipment to do that style for women's hair" he said, he didn't have the equipment to do women's hair. Full stop. Going by the literal reading of what he said, he seems to think he needs special equipment to cut women's hair at all. Given that I have a lifetime of direct experience watching women's hair getting styled with the same exact equipment used to style my own hair, and I have never even heard of the concept of women's hair being somehow inherently different, nevermind different enough to require entirely different tools, and haven't heard of any barber's or stylists expressing support for that, I maintain it's a pretty silly statement.

bhsmte said:

I go to a Great Clips to get my hair cut and my daughters sometimes come along. They use the same equipment on my hair, they use on my daughters hair. They use the same scissors that are on the counter, they don't go fishing in the drawer for anything different.

Now, if a real specialty cut is asked for, there may be a need for a piece of equipment a male barbershop would not have. Also and I think most important, is the experience and skill required to cut women's hair and to deliver a certain look. I have heard nothing about this barbershop lacking the experience or skill though, only the equipment.

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Well, several posts back I quoted the barber and I unfortunately allowed myself to deviate from the barber's exact words. The barber said:

This was his statement. Within the context of the female patron asking for a wave/fade, I am curious as to whether the equipment is different and this may depend on length of hair and other factors, or maybe not but I do not know.

NotreDame said:

No I am asking you for your basis of knowledge of what is needed, not needed, to cut women's hair, whether it is different for men?

In the more narrow context of this dialogue, I know I quoted the barber several posts back, the barber said:

Just not in this shop. I don’t even have the equipment to do women’s hair.
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I blame myself for getting away from the wording of the barber equating "cutting" with the word "do." However, does he have the equipment to "do" women's hair? Does he have the equipment to cut a fade/wave for a woman? He says he doesn't.

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The equipment required to cut a fade for a woman is no different than that required to cut a fade for a man. Scissors, clippers, comb. What sort of magical devise is required to cut a fade for a woman?

Absolutely nothing different is needed or not needed to cut anyone's hair. Anyone's hair, regardless of gender, can be cut by the standard tools that any person in the business of cutting hair would have.

He might not have the equipment to do certain women's hairstyles but he does have the equipment to do women's hair.

NotreDame said:

Well, several posts back I quoted the barber and I unfortunately allowed myself to deviate from the barber's exact words. The barber said:

Just not in this shop. I don’t even have the equipment to do women’s hair.
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This was his statement. Within the context of the female patron asking for a wave/fade, I am curious as to whether the equipment is different and this may depend on length of hair and other factors, or maybe not but I do not know.

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It all depends what they are asking for.

trunks2k said:

That's not what he said. He didn't say "I don't have the equipment to do that style for women's hair" he said, he didn't have the equipment to do women's hair. Full stop. Going by the literal reading of what he said, he seems to think he needs special equipment to cut women's hair at all. Given that I have a lifetime of direct experience watching women's hair getting styled with the same exact equipment used to style my own hair, and I have never even heard of the concept of women's hair being somehow inherently different, nevermind different enough to require entirely different tools, it's a pretty silly statement.

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Right. We've already covered why your opinion, with the facade of being factual, isn't worth much.

Now, his statement could be construed two ways and, of course, some clarification is needed. The context provides one reasonable interpretation and then their is your own. Of course, he could have meant both. I am not sure what he meant but this doesn't change your lack of expertise in this area.

Skaloop said:

The equipment required to cut a fade for a woman is no different than that required to cut a fade for a man. Scissors, clippers, comb. What sort of magical devise is required to cut a fade for a woman?

Absolutely nothing different is needed or not needed to cut anyone's hair. Anyone's hair, regardless of gender, can be cut by the standard tools that any person in the business of cutting hair would have.

He might not have the equipment to do certain women's hairstyles but he does have the equipment to do women's hair.

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equipment required to cut a fade for a woman is no different than that required to cut a fade for a man.

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You are not a barber or hair stylist so what is the basis of this statement?

Absolutely nothing different is needed or not needed to cut anyone's hair. Anyone's hair, regardless of gender, can be cut by the standard tools that any person in the business of cutting hair would have.

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I am not convinced this is accurate based on the very limited Google search I have conducted. But then again, maybe the Google sources are not accurate.

NotreDame said:

Great. I have the barber paying a fine. I have a barber's statement he did not have the tools to cut women's hair. The two are not contradictory.

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Well apparently the judge didn't accept that excuse.

I would think that a barber would have the tools necessary to cut hair. If he lacks the tools to cut hair, his barber shop can't be doing well. It's not like you need a pair of scissors forged with adamantium to cut through a woman's hair.

I would think that if a barber had a good reason to not be able to cut a woman's hair that there wouldn't have been a fine. Does this make sense to you?

You know what's cheaper than a $750 fine and nationwide bad publicity? Giving someone a refund and apologizing that you gave them a bad hair cut.

Skaloop said:

He might not have the equipment to do certain women's hairstyles but he does have the equipment to do women's hair.

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Which, given the further context about a women's salon and serving mimosas, I think that was what he was trying to express - he doesn't have the equipment to do the type of styles that women tend to want (i.e. "women's hair styles"). That's fine, he doesn't have to do those if he doesn't want to.