Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
"Job sought to be set free from his master"

This is a good thing is it not? For we can not serve two Masters, yet if we continue in his word than we will come to know the truth, and the Truth [our own Master/Lord, אמן AMN Right hand/Faith] will be able to set us free from the bondage of sin [our own Master/lord AMN truth/right hand/faith (opinion)] which Ea'huah Elohym Hands us over to.

"Where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I, in the midst (of it all)"

Thus it is not about what anyone of us would like to say, but what the Most High is trying to say through us, and it can be recognized by the harmonic aspects of our joint conversation.

First I see Heaven asking Us, What do you think about my servant Job?

Second, I see Elohym using one brother to challenge others to not just accept the fact that Job is a Righteous example for all to follow, but to be able to point out more precisely why Elohym considers Job to be a righteouse example for us to follow.

And when the Sons of Elohym came before Elohym....that's what we are doing here, right now!

And Elohym asked a particular brother, what do you think of my perfect servent Job....

The particular Son of Elohym said that Job was Fat! And he based this on the record of Job 15:27]

"Because he covers his face with his fatness, and makes collops of fat on his flanks." [ob 15:27 kjv]

This translation infers that, Job's close, and high regarded friend, who came to Comfort him, is calling Job a 'Fat Ass';

Even if it were fathomly possible, Ea'huah Elohym dicredited the sayings of Job's three friends, so who would consider their words over Job's, whom Ea'huah Elohym openly commended?

Notwithstanding let's take acloser look at this passage.
כִּֽי־כִסָּ֣ה פָנָ֣יו בְּחֶלְבֹּ֑ו וַיַּ֖עַשׂ פִּימָ֣ה עֲלֵי־כָֽסֶל׃
[Job 15:27]

Pah'niû' pertains to the countenance (appearance, and expression) of one's face, and here it says...

Ki ks'sa pah'niû
'For his face was plump

B'kgha lebû
'it used to be fat, (as in healthy).

Vé hagh'sh pi'mah haghli k'sel

'But he has a Mouth that is overly Confident,' (and, or the more likely...)

'Yea! He had fit [(or) suitable] cheeks, plump like mine.

Only differrence here is, I'm reading from the Original (diet) inspired tongue of Elohym, and your reading from a translation;

Either the King James Version, or one that is comparable to the 'Kings Meat' here in Babylon [James lit. sea = the (mingled) peoples of the...], the Nation(s) exercising World Domination [Dan 7]
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Thankfulttt said...

"While Job is beloved by many, his three friends are ripped apart by most commentators."

This true, and a shame as implied by your words, for Who out there among all the inhabitants of the world has a friend that they love so much, and respect, that if they were struck with the devestation in which Job was struck with;

Would set all their affairs in someone elses hands, and make a special pilgrimage andto visit their righteoys friend, and sit in ashes with him, holding your peace for seven days!

Yea, I wish I had three miserable friends like Job, don't you? Yet if your love for your brother can not equal up to the love of these three, then please hold your peace, as it pertains to them.
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
"The Breath of our nostrils, the anointed of Ea'huah was taken in their pits, of whom we said, Under his Shadow we shall Live among the heathen.

Rejoice and be glad, O daughter of Adom, who dwells in the land of Uz; the cup also shall pass through unto you: you shall be drunken, and shall make your self naked." [Lamentations 4:20-21]

In this passage the Cup passess from Israel to אדום Adom, the very same Adom whom Israel stole the birthright, blessing, and divine title 'Israel' from;

The breath of life mentioned above is a referrence to Eve the life giver, she is the first (and only begotten) daughter of Adam;

And yes Adom is a reference to Adam, because the title 'Israel' [lit. He is the (Crown prince, and) Chief steward of Elohym] belongs to the one whom Elohym commissions to be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it, and exercise juridiction over every living thing that moves upon the earth, flys in the air, and dwells in the sea.

Now consider what Eliphaz asked Job...

"Are you the first man that was born? or were you made before the hills?" [Job 15:7]

If this question were to be asked of Y'shua, what would his response be? If not, 'So you say that I am!' Now if Job is a member of the body of H'Meshiach, then the same principles apply unto him, for he belongs not to himself, but the body of H'Meshiach.

Consider the name איוב AYWB The word means, Hated, and Enemy.

"I have loved you, says Ea'huah. Yet you say, Wherein have you loved us? Was not Esau [aka Adom] Jacob’s brother? says Ea'huah: yet I loved Jacob,

"And I Hated Esau, and laid his mountains and his heritage waste like the dragons of the wilderness." [Malachi 1:2-3]

To say Essu-Adom was Hated, is to say Aywb-Job (hated) was Esau-Adom.

Now compare the Word for Love, Hate, and Father in Hebrew...

אהב איוב אב AHB (love), AYWB (hate), AB (father), the יהו Y,H,W placed in the word AB (father) only bring out, and emphasize attributes of the father, for to Love Good, is to Hate Evil, the two work hand in hand, as to faithful witnessess prepared to establish the truth of a matter.

Contrary to the teachings of Babylon, Hate is not the opposite of Love, Fear is!

for years I have looked for scripturally based evidence to establish the true identity of Job, and now finally, a brother who would question Job's righteous integrity, provides me the missing link I've been searching for along.

Thank you Thankfulttt, I knew he was a resurrected Adam bearing a pseudio, and my suspicions were narrowing it down to Esau-Adom, but your referrence to Lamentation's 4 connecting Adom to Uz, concludes the matter for me now, how about you?

We know Adam was perfect, and so was Job according to Elohym.
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
To let the potshards strive amongst themselves, is to allow carnal minded men debate amongst themselves, but heaven forbid such try to debate with his Maker, or his principles.

Yet he says, come, let us reason together (with one another).

Yes an amphibious T-Rex described in Job fits the discription of Leviathan, we have many skeletal bones to prove such a creature once roamed the earth;

Yes, Leviathan is likened unto Satan the Devil, the King of all Pride, he is the ego of every one who leans upon his own Will, understanding, righteousness, and opinion (faith), etc.

Yet this right belongs to our Maker alone, whom the priests referred to as Beelzebub-Satan, for when he says 'I am', there is not an ego who can hold a flame to Him.

Those who believe their lips are their own, are those who do not know, Elohym creates the fruit of the lips;

Thus the sheep are those who take hold of the New Covenant recognize, and hear the voice of Elohym, and follow it as if they had no choice, because they believe beyond the shadow of a doubt;

And the goats are those who fail to take hold of the New covenant, they fail to recognize his voice, because the ego tells them it is their own, and feel therefore they have an option to follow it or not, because they doubt the truth of the scriptures as it pertains to these things.

Yet, it is because of the lack of love for truth that one is handed over to a delusion, and convinced to believe in a lie, yet to whom does he hand us over to if not our own delusions?

Thus our delusion is Satan, the beast that was, but IS NOT, yet is to come, because we refuse the Truth, we are handed over to a Lie;

Yet because there is no one outside of Ea'huah to hand us over to, He him self has to become the beast to hand us over to him, yes he desires us to denounce this Master of deciet, (the deciet of our own hearts that is), and cleave unto the truth of his heart.

We either serve the father in Spirit and Truth, or in a Carnal Lie, we each get to choose whom we lean upon, Him, or our self (ego) the king of all pride.

Now Job spoke things that were implicatively above his head, meaning, he was indirectly supposing his righteousness was greater than Elohym's when he thought he could stand a chance with his Maker in a court of law;

For both Elohym, and Job knew, Elohym did what he did without a cause-case (pending against him), Elohym just happen to take the word of one of his other son's and reaked havok on poor Job;

Ludicrous! Right? Elohym is righteous, the adversary was Job's alter ego, saying, golly shucks, I am only perfect because you always protect me!, but if you take away your protection from me, I'll be just as worthless as any other!

And Elohym proved Job wrong, yet the second time, Job's alter ego suggested, that Elohym touch his Flesh, and Bones, a request that includes his wife-flesh n bones;

Thus she her self spoke the words, 'curse Elohym and die', it is here that Job openly refuses to Curse Elohym openly, yet Thankfulttt point stands firm, Job failed to bless him;

When Elohym blessed Jacob and not Adom, the same was to Curse Adom, and not Jacob.

Yet Job has to perform two or three acts to complete a curse, and that, he never provided, not knowingly, or willingly anyway, for we do not hold one accountable for what they do not know, but what they do know.

As the brother so eloquently put it, no sooner than Elohym called Job on his foolish implications, Job repented.
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
It appears that Thankfulttt is troubled because nobody will take note of Job's (Overcome) Shortcomings, if that makes any sense, as if the fact that Job was a sinner at any point, and time in his life alone should make him an unworthy Icon, after he has overcome such a sin.

Well, Elohym disagrees with him, if that be the case, and so do I.

Take the parable of two sons for example, what was the decree for the son who never sinned? But to switch places with the sinner, that no one ever lift him self up above another;

Elohym concluded, he who overcomes sin is greater than he who has never been subjected to sin.

Yet Elohym' s reason for raising up Thankfulttt to provoke a greater understanding of Job and his Righteousness, which heaven has established as being worthy to be an example unto all, it appears to be quite worthy, and justifiable.

So by the book of Job we may know, We Adam-mankind are Job, and we are hated by the king of all pride, our alter (non covenant) Ego voice, which likes to think our lips are our own.

And if any one is being Smitten, let it be known, it is Not Satan, unless we are being handed over to our own imaginations which rise from a lack of love for divine truth. [2nd Thesselonians 2:10-12]

And though you may be ashamed of your father Adam, let it be known, that Y'shua referred to himself as the Son of Adam more than any other nomenclature;
 
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
8,998
678
✟187,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
In your defense of Job you have fixated on the contents of two verses. The contents of the first verse says Job was blameless and upright. Well he was until the third chapter. We know that Job didn't remain in that state because he is admonished by both his judge(Elihu) and God. The contents of the second verse comes at the end of the book and is telling us that Job has repented and the three friends have not.

Job charged God foolishly after the second test. This cannot be denied. In Job 40:2 God said Job reproved him.

Job elevated himself in chapter 29.

Job 29:7
Job 29:8
Job 29:9
Job 29:10
Job 29:11
Job 29:12
Job 29:13
Job 29:14
Job 29:15
Job 29:16
Job 29:17
Job 29:18
Job 29:19
Job 29:20
Job 29:21
Job 29:22
Job 29:23
Job 29:24
Job 29:25

Compare Deuteronomy 32:3 with what Job is saying in Job 29 and you can clearly see that Job is ascribing greatness to himself while Moses ascribes greatness to God.

While Job elevated himself he charged God with being unjust. Job 9:23
You're reading in a vacuum...there's nothing that can be said to you except when you read hold in context everything you've read.

This is the conclusion of the matter...when Jobs three friends had their say, along with Elihu, and God stepped in and had his say...this is what God concluded:

Job 42:7-9:
7 It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.
8 Now therefore, take for yourselves seven bulls and seven rams, and go to My servant Job, and offer up a burnt offering for yourselves, and My servant Job will pray for you. For I will accept him so that I may not do with you according to your folly, because you have not spoken of Me what is right, as My servant Job has.”
9 So Eliphaz the Temanite and Bildad the Shuhite and Zophar the Naamathite went and did as the Lord told them; and the Lord accepted Job.


The bottom line is you can continue with your own thoughts about Job...OR...listen to what God said. God said Job was right, you say he was self righteous, yet God doesn't say that.

Is God right...or you? Perhaps one day you will read Job according to scripture...I hope so, because at this point, VERY FEW posters and very few commentaries on Job agree with you.

You're off course with what God had to say...so who do you think readers will heed???

If Job is wrong, and failed the trial...God would not restore him in the end...Job 42:10-17

10 The Lord restored the fortunes of Job when he prayed for his friends, and the Lord increased all that Job had twofold.
11 Then all his brothers and all his sisters and all who had known him before came to him, and they ate bread with him in his house; and they consoled him and comforted him for all the adversities that the Lord had brought on him. And each one gave him one piece of money, and each a ring of gold.
12 The Lord blessed the latter days of Job more than his beginning; and he had 14,000 sheep and 6,000 camels and 1,000 yoke of oxen and 1,000 female donkeys.
13 He had seven sons and three daughters. 14 He named the first Jemimah, and the second Keziah, and the third Keren-happuch.
15 In all the land no women were found so fair as Job’s daughters; and their father gave them inheritance among their brothers.
16 After this, Job lived 140 years, and saw his sons and his grandsons, four generations.
17 And Job died, an old man and full of days.


Self righteousness is a sin! A sin Jesus said of the Pharisees...where does God say Job is self righteous? You can't find it anywhere in the book. However you do read God blessing Job after the trial.

Basically, you're saying God blessed sin...and you're saying in it total ignorance because you do not hold what is written in context.

The first step to reading the scriptures, is to let scripture interpret itself. God said in Job 42:7:

7 It came about after the Lord had spoken these words to Job, that the Lord said to Eliphaz the Temanite, “My wrath is kindled against you and against your two friends, because you have not spoken of Me what is right as My servant Job has.

I say again God said Job spoke RIGHT...take it from there....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

thankfulttt

Member
Oct 26, 2014
466
42
✟11,502.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thankfulttt said...

"While Job is beloved by many, his three friends are ripped apart by most commentators."

This true, and a shame as implied by your words, for Who out there among all the inhabitants of the world has a friend that they love so much, and respect, that if they were struck with the devestation in which Job was struck with;

Would set all their affairs in someone elses hands, and make a special pilgrimage andto visit their righteoys friend, and sit in ashes with him, holding your peace for seven days!

Yea, I wish I had three miserable friends like Job, don't you? Yet if your love for your brother can not equal up to the love of these three, then please hold your peace, as it pertains to them.

Greetings Laureate;

My view of Job is perhaps misunderstood. I see Job as I see Paul. I love Paul, but before he met the Messiah I would not have liked him much. Before Paul was born again he went about handing out his brand of justice on Christians. Paul was without knowledge. When you consider Philippians 3:4-6 you see the picture of Job before his rebirth.

Paul had a zeal for God and so did Job. In the flesh no one surpassed Paul. Paul was blameless even while he was killing Christians. Job was blameless even while he was exercising his own brand of justice. Both Paul and Job were without knowledge. God gave them a pass. Even with the pass neither would gain heaven without repentance and a rebirth. The picture of Job's rebirth is when his cursed body was made fresher than a baby's, and all things were made new. Elihu cites this in Job 33:24-25. There is a ransom found that keeps Job from the pit.

In connection with the three friends I believe Job 42:7 is misunderstood by many. God is saying what Elihu has already said in Job 32:3 with the exception of the time frame.
When Elihu spoke Job had not yet repented. The three friends are condemned for not having and answer for Job, and by the time God speaks Job has the answer, which is repentance, and the three friends are condemned for not having the same answer that Job has now found. All four needed to repent.

God was not saying they said something wrong, but rather they had not said that which is right, which is repentance. I would challenge anyone to fine something wrong that the three friends said about God.

Best regards
 
  • Like
Reactions: Laureate
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Greetings Laureate;

My view of Job is perhaps misunderstood. I see Job as I see Paul. I love Paul, but before he met the Messiah I would not have liked him much. Before Paul was born again he went about handing out his brand of justice on Christians. Paul was without knowledge. When you consider Philippians 3:4-6 you see the picture of Job before his rebirth.

Paul had a zeal for God and so did Job. In the flesh no one surpassed Paul. Paul was blameless even while he was killing Christians. Job was blameless even while he was exercising his own brand of justice. Both Paul and Job were without knowledge. God gave them a pass. Even with the pass neither would gain heaven without repentance and a rebirth. The picture of Job's rebirth is when his cursed body was made fresher than a baby's, and all things were made new. Elihu cites this in Job 33:24-25. There is a ransom found that keeps Job from the pit.

In connection with the three friends I believe Job 42:7 is misunderstood by many. God is saying what Elihu has already said in Job 32:3 with the exception of the time frame.
When Elihu spoke Job had not yet repented. The three friends are condemned for not having and answer for Job, and by the time God speaks Job has the answer, which is repentance, and the three friends are condemned for not having the same answer that Job has now found. All four needed to repent.

God was not saying they said something wrong, but rather they had not said that which is right, which is repentance. I would challenge anyone to fine something wrong that the three friends said about God.

Best regards

Agreed, at worst, they spoke truths (out of season) assuming that Job must have done something wrong to receive what he received, it was a no brainer for them, in their mind, Job must have done something wrong, but Job contended, that was not the case.

The samething baffled Job, thats why he sought a fair hearing, and so the debate went on, i.e., You must have done some thing....(Job) No, I'm trying to tell you, I did nothing......(friend) You must have, otherwise you are implying Elohym is unrighteous, and we know that can't be true, so......(Job) I am trying to tell you....

Instead of confessing, You know fellas, Our Father is righteous, meaning, He knows why He has done what He has done, and we know that He did so for a good reason, but for the life of me, I can not tell you what it is that I could have done, I was hoping one of you perhaps would prove to be sent to reveal to me what it is that I did, or failed to do, but thus far, I am innocent of any of your suppositions, notwithstanding, I agree, I must have done, or failed to do something, because Elohym is righteous, even when we are unable to detect His righteousness.
 
Upvote 0

thankfulttt

Member
Oct 26, 2014
466
42
✟11,502.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Agreed, at worst, they spoke truths (out of season) assuming that Job must have done something wrong to receive what he received, it was a no brainer for them, in their mind, Job must have done something wrong, but Job contended, that was not the case.

The samething baffled Job, thats why he sought a fair hearing, and so the debate went on, i.e., You must have done some thing....(Job) No, I'm trying to tell you, I did nothing......(friend) You must have, otherwise you are implying Elohym is unrighteous, and we know that can't be true, so......(Job) I am trying to tell you....

Instead of confessing, You know fellas, Our Father is righteous, meaning, He knows why He has done what He has done, and we know that He did so for a good reason, but for the life of me, I can not tell you what it is that I could have done, I was hoping one of you perhaps would prove to be sent to reveal to me what it is that I did, or failed to do, but thus far, I am innocent of any of your suppositions, notwithstanding, I agree, I must have done, or failed to do something, because Elohym is righteous, even when we are unable to detect His righteousness.

God never said a word about what the three friends said about Job, and in fact Job charged God with sending them as witnesses against him.(Job 10:17) If you had asked Paul if he had done anything wrong in having Christians killed he would have denied it. But in fact it was wrong. Job did many things wrong, but to him and his own judgment it was not wrong. And God did not hold him accountable for it, just as Paul got a pass on having Christians killed.

Eliphaz made distinct and direct charges against Job, and who knows you better than your friends?

Job 22:5
Job 22:6
Job 22:7
Job 22:8
Job 22:9
 
  • Like
Reactions: Laureate
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
But now tell me, if you had a number of sons, and if you were to ask one of your sons, what he thought concerning another son, would you act on such a supposition, and bring detriment upon your son, based on the suspicions of another?

I know I would not, unless I had two or three solid reasons to justify such an act, for I am not predisposed to act on the suspicions of one, two or three speculators.

"If there be a messenger, one in אלף ALPh [a thousand]...."

The word for thousand is 'aleph' as in 'Alpha', this can be a referrence to the א [A] (commonly transl. throughout scriptures as) 'I (am)', [the word 'I' lit. means, the person speaking].

The אל פ [AL Ph] 'el peh' may also translate, 'the word of El(ohym)', and אלף can also translate 'learn(ed)'

Thus, one among a thousand pertains to one who is a Disciple, i.e. a student of the scriptures, and beneficiary of the [I (am)] covenant voice of the Alpha (Head of the house, pack, etc.).


אליהו Elihu-Elijah was that messenger amongnst his אלף ALPh-friends, who was learned, and filled with the spirit of Grace.

Though Job spoke correctly, he confessed, that he did not understand the spiritual implications of the words that proceeded from his mouth, this suggests, that Job's words bore two natures, meaning his speech was delivered from on high as a Parable;

We know this to be true, because Y'shua made it abundantly clear, that, when the Word of Elohym is (to be) delivered to the general public, it is delivered in the form of a Parable, which is a divine cipher shared between Elohym and his faithful disciples who have an ear to hear what the spirit has to say.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Thankfulttt said...

"God never said a word about what the three friends said about Job, and in fact Job charged God with sending them as witnesses against him.(Job 10:17) If you had asked Paul if he had done anything wrong in having Christians killed he would have denied it. But in fact it was wrong. Job did many things wrong, but to him and his own judgment it was not wrong. And God did not hold him accountable for it, just as Paul got a pass on having Christians killed.

Eliphaz made distinct and direct charges against Job, and who knows you better than your friends?

Job 22:5
Job 22:6
Job 22:7
Job 22:8
Job 22:9
[End of Quote]

Can one assert a Truth, and not be speaking about the Truth? When we assert a Truth we are (praising) verbalizing an assessment that pertains to a major Attribute of Elohym;

Therefore anything, and everything asserted as being true in this story pertains to Elohym, whom as has been forementioned, declared the assertions of Job to be good, and his friends, not as good;

Who knows you better Thankfulttt! Your close friends who have to travel a distance to visit you, or Elohym?

In Job 22:5-9 Eliphaz assumes these things which Job refuted, and Elohym contradicted when he called Job righteous-upright, even still, where is Eliphaz's two witnessess, which he is supposed to present to establish such a charge? And where is yours?
 
Upvote 0

thankfulttt

Member
Oct 26, 2014
466
42
✟11,502.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Thankfulttt said...

"God never said a word about what the three friends said about Job, and in fact Job charged God with sending them as witnesses against him.(Job 10:17) If you had asked Paul if he had done anything wrong in having Christians killed he would have denied it. But in fact it was wrong. Job did many things wrong, but to him and his own judgment it was not wrong. And God did not hold him accountable for it, just as Paul got a pass on having Christians killed.

Eliphaz made distinct and direct charges against Job, and who knows you better than your friends?

Job 22:5
Job 22:6
Job 22:7
Job 22:8
Job 22:9
[End of Quote]

Can one assert a Truth, and not be speaking about the Truth? When we assert a Truth we are (praising) verbalizing an assessment that pertains to a major Attribute of Elohym;

Therefore anything, and everything asserted as being true in this story pertains to Elohym, whom as has been forementioned, declared the assertions of Job to be good, and his friends, not as good;

Who knows you better Thankfulttt! Your close friends who have to travel a distance to visit you, or Elohym?

In Job 22:5-9 Eliphaz assumes these things which Job refuted, and Elohym contradicted when he called Job righteous-upright, even still, where is Eliphaz's two witnessess, which he is supposed to present to establish such a charge? And where is yours?

In order to understand the book of Job one has to correctly understand what God said in Job 42:7. What God is not saying is that Job's speech for the entire book is correct. Have you heard the saying "One must get right with God"? This is what God is saying to the three friends. In order to be saved we have to make confession with our mouth. This is what God is saying about Job, that Job made that confession, that he said "that which is right", and they have not. Romans 10:10 --for with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Job was clothed in his own righteousness. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness and it clothed me: it was as a robe and a diadem." In order for Job to be saved he had to put on God's righteousness, who we know to be Jesus Christ. Job's clothing was as filthy rags. From the beginning of the book until Job made confession with his mouth he was clothed in his own righteousness. When Job confessed that he was vile and abhorred himself he was confessing that he was wickedly dressed in his own robe. Those who come to the wedding are required to have the proper wedding attire. Those who don't will be cast out.

In chapters 38-40 God has to explain to Job who God is, and the reason is that Job had not said what was right for the previous chapters, with the exception of those things that were too wonderful, which he knew not.

Elihu, God's messenger, was the first to state what God said in Job 42:7. Elihu's wrath was kindled because the three didn't have the answer for Job, which was that Job needed to be saved, he needed to put on God's righteousness. When God spoke Job had already confessed and put on God's righteousness, but the three friends had not yet confessed.

This is what that verse is about, and it is the heart of the book of Job, "How can a man be just with God?"

Yes the book speaks of the other brother Edom whom Job represents, but this truth is secondary to the main message of salvation.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
8,998
678
✟187,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
In order to understand the book of Job one has to correctly understand what God said in Job 42:7. What God is not saying is that Job's speech for the entire book is correct. Have you heard the saying "One must get right with God"? This is what God is saying to the three friends. In order to be saved we have to make confession with our mouth. This is what God is saying about Job, that Job made that confession, that he said "that which is right", and they have not. Romans 10:10 --for with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

Job was clothed in his own righteousness. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness and it clothed me: it was as a robe and a diadem." In order for Job to be saved he had to put on God's righteousness, who we know to be Jesus Christ. Job's clothing was as filthy rags. From the beginning of the book until Job made confession with his mouth he was clothed in his own righteousness. When Job confessed that he was vile and abhorred himself he was confessing that he was wickedly dressed in his own robe. Those who come to the wedding are required to have the proper wedding attire. Those who don't will be cast out.

In chapters 38-40 God has to explain to Job who God is, and the reason is that Job had not said what was right for the previous chapters, with the exception of those things that were too wonderful, which he knew not.

Elihu, God's messenger, was the first to state what God said in Job 42:7. Elihu's wrath was kindled because the three didn't have the answer for Job, which was that Job needed to be saved, he needed to put on God's righteousness. When God spoke Job had already confessed and put on God's righteousness, but the three friends had not yet confessed.

This is what that verse is about, and it is the heart of the book of Job, "How can a man be just with God?"

Yes the book speaks of the other brother Edom whom Job represents, but this truth is secondary to the main message of salvation.
What you have just done is tortured scripture to fit *your idea* of what you think. You keep that...I'll stand on what I said.
 
Upvote 0

thankfulttt

Member
Oct 26, 2014
466
42
✟11,502.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
What you have just done is tortured scripture to fit *your idea* of what you think. You keep that...I'll stand on what I said.

Your stance is that Job was forever blameless and upright. How can one be blameless and upright when he condemns God as unrighteous? Yes Job was upright and blameless when God made that statement, but Job did not remain upright and blameless. Only Jesus Christ was always blameless and upright.

Your second point is that Job said everything right about God while the three friends said things wrong about God. For this to be the case Job had to be right when he said God was unjust. You should also be able to point to what the three friends said that was wrong about God.
 
Upvote 0

ebedmelech

My dog Micah in the pic
Supporter
Jul 3, 2012
8,998
678
✟187,689.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Constitution
Your stance is that Job was forever blameless and upright. How can one be blameless and upright when he condemns God as unrighteous? Yes Job was upright and blameless when God made that statement, but Job did not remain upright and blameless. Only Jesus Christ was always blameless and upright.

Your second point is that Job said everything right about God while the three friends said things wrong about God. For this to be the case Job had to be right when he said God was unjust. You should also be able to point to what the three friends said that was wrong about God.
My stance is what God said of Job in the beginning, before Job's trial...and in the end after Job's trial. You have no points thankfulttt, all you have is really erroneous conclusions that YOU PUT together.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Laureate
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
You ask us what we think about Job, was he a Saint, Sinner, Hero, or Villain?

The answer is clearly Yes! To all of the above, depending upon which point and time of his life one would care to scrutinize;

But you seek to ignore Job the Saint, and Hero, and desire heaven to break your finger for finding it more important to point at Job to indicate he was a Sinner, and a Villain!

How about we ask Y'shua (The Word of Elohym) our High Priest concerning What He thinks about Job!

Or how about we just read his testimony as it pertains to Jobs Righteousness as an example unto the Saints.

"Though Noah, Daniel, and Job, were in it, as I live, says Ea'huah Elohym, they shall deliver neither son nor daughter; they shall but deliver their own souls by their righteousness." [Ezekeil 14:20]

"Have pity upon me, have pity upon me, O you my friends; for the hand of Elohym has touched me.

Why do you persecute me as Elohym, and are not satisfied with my flesh?

Oh that my words were now written! oh that they were printed in a book!

That they were graven with an iron pen and lead in the rock for ever!

For I know that my redeemer lives, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:

And even after worms have destroyed this skin, of my body, yet while in my flesh shall I see Elohym:

Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me." [Job 19:21-27]

Are these not the words of a Saint, One in whom Elohym's estimation is considered Perfect, and Upright, and no one else on earth, not even who? Jacob, Israel, Joseph, Aphraim, or any of the Saints was to be compared;

But of the same Elohym says, If your not as Righteous as Job, Daniel or Noah then your not righteous enough to be saved, no not even by the intercession of a righteous parent!

Now compare the words spoken through Job with those of a foretold Meshiach...

"It is for your sake that I have borne reproach; shame has covered my face.

I am become a stranger unto my brethren, and an alien unto my mother’s children.

....the reproaches of them that reproached you are fallen upon me.

When I wept, and chastened my soul with fasting, that was to my reproach.

I made sackcloth also my garment; and I became a proverb to them.

You have known my reproach, and my shame, and my dishonour: mine Adversaries are all before you:

Reproach has broken my heart; and I am full of heaviness: and I looked for someone to take pity, but there was no one; and for comforters, but I found none.

Pour out your indignation upon them, and let your wrathful anger take hold of them.

For they persecute him whom you have smitten; and they talk to the grief of those whom you have wounded.

Add iniquity unto their iniquity: and let them not come into your righteousness.

Let them be blotted out of the book of the living, and not be written with the righteous." [Psalm 69:7-13, 18-20, 24, & 26-28]

What about Daniel, or Noah, are they not Saints in your estimation? Then why do you suppose Elohym would place a sinner amongst His top three pics to serve as an example for Saints to follow?

Surely when Job resurrects in these last days he shall stand among the Saints! Right? Or how else shall he see his redeemer face to face? For a redeemer is not Your Redeemer unless He Redeems You!
 
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
I have never seen anyone distort a passsage like this before, the words of this chapter are of one who clearly professess where his Righteousness is from, i.e., Elohym preserving him, walking by the light of Elohym's candle, El Shadai was with him, clothed in righteousness, and a diadem.

"Moreover, Job continued his parable, and said,

Oh that I were as in months past, as in the days when Elohym preserved me;

When his candle shined upon my head, and when by his light I walked through darkness;

As I was in the days of my youth, when the secret of Elohym was upon my tabernacle;

When El Shadai was yet with me, when my children were about me;

When I washed my steps with butter, and the rock poured me out rivers of oil;

When I went out to the gate through the city, when I prepared my seat in the street!

The young men saw me, and hid themselves: and the aged arose, and stood up.

The princes refrained talking, and laid their hand on their mouth.

The nobles held their peace, and their tongue cleaved to the roof of their mouth.

When the ear heard me, then it blessed me; and when the eye saw me, it gave witness to me:

Because I delivered the poor that cried, and the fatherless, and him that had none to help him.

The blessing of him that was ready to perish came upon me: and I caused the widow’s heart to sing for joy.

I put on righteousness, and it clothed me: my judgment was as a robe and a diadem.

I was eyes to the blind, and feet was I to the lame.

I was a father to the poor: and the cause which I knew not I searched out.

And I brake the jaws of the wicked, and plucked the spoil out of his teeth.

I chose out their way, and sat chief, and dwelt as a king in the army, as one that comforts the mourners." [Job 29:1-17 & 25]

Job's words concerning putting on righteousness is compatable with Davids words, are we to assume self righteousness here as well?

"Let your priests be clothed with righteousness; and let your Saints shout for joy." [Psalms 132:9]

Jobs reference to a diadem pertains to the Halo that Elohym bestows upon his Saints throughout history, it is only bestowed upon anointed beings, or rather I should say, it is upon bestowal, that one becomes anointed.

Now if we were to recognize a tree by the fruit it bears, (Job's asserted testimony being verifiable at the time which he spoke, and no proof was submitted to discredit his testimony), then such a person was indeed, blessed, and righteous!



....Job was clothed in his own righteousness. Job 29:14 "I put on righteousness and it clothed me: it was as a robe and a diadem." In order for Job to be saved he had to put on God's righteousness, who we know to be Jesus Christ. Job's clothing was as filthy rags. From the beginning of the book until Job made confession with his mouth he was clothed in his own righteousness....
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
In order to understand the book of Job one has to correctly understand what God said in Job 42:7. What God is not saying is that Job's speech for the entire book is correct....

Elohym made no such assertations, you are speculating upon sacred ground as if it were not the divine word of Elohym we are discussing;

True, the Most high uses me to assert bold statements, yet He has also equiped me to substantiate everything precept upon precept, not speculation;

True, Elohym never said, every single utterance that proceeded from Job was Good, nor did Elohym proclaim the words of Job's friends to be false, Elohym did however make a clear distiction between the speech of Job, and the speech of his friends;

You are trying to limit the application of Elohym's words to apply to the point when Job makes confession, yet his friends never opened their mouth once young Elijah spoke, so how do you figure Elohym compares the speech of Job with the speech of his friends during a segment where his friends never spoke?

At this point you are worse than Job's oversight, in that you have departed from the scriptures to defend a sad interpretation.

'Seek and you shall find!'

Do you not know that, to Look for error, is a sure sign of perdition? Why are you jealous of the Glory which heaven has bestowed upon Job?

Here, try ask your self, Why am I taking this disposition against Job?

I am not here to find fault with you! You are flaunting it about disciples who can not help but see your multiple oversights;

You have exhibited no shame in your adding, and diminishing things from sacred scripture, it is as if we were only critiquing a comic book, so what if an unsubstantiated opinion or two is made? Really!

To answer your initial question, Is Job a Saint?

The answer is yes!

Would not you agree?
 
Upvote 0

thankfulttt

Member
Oct 26, 2014
466
42
✟11,502.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Elohym made no such assertations, you are speculating upon sacred ground as if it were not the divine word of Elohym we are discussing;

True, the Most high uses me to assert bold statements, yet He has also equiped me to substantiate everything precept upon precept, not speculation;

True, Elohym never said, every single utterance that proceeded from Job was Good, nor did Elohym proclaim the words of Job's friends to be false, Elohym did however make a clear distiction between the speech of Job, and the speech of his friends;

You are trying to limit the application of Elohym's words to apply to the point when Job makes confession, yet his friends never opened their mouth once young Elijah spoke, so how do you figure Elohym compares the speech of Job with the speech of his friends during a segment where his friends never spoke?

At this point you are worse than Job's oversight, in that you have departed from the scriptures to defend a sad interpretation.

'Seek and you shall find!'

Do you not know that, to Look for error, is a sure sign of perdition? Why are you jealous of the Glory which heaven has bestowed upon Job?

Here, try ask your self, Why am I taking this disposition against Job?

I am not here to find fault with you! You are flaunting it about disciples who can not help but see your multiple oversights;

You have exhibited no shame in your adding, and diminishing things from sacred scripture, it is as if we were only critiquing a comic book, so what if an unsubstantiated opinion or two is made? Really!

To answer your initial question, Is Job a Saint?

The answer is yes!

Would not you agree?

I am surprised that you would think I have some personal motive against Job. Truth is all I am after. Look closely at the following comparison.

Look at David and then do a comparison with Job. They both suffered the same tribulation. The difference was David confessed his sin when God touched him, and Job continued to declare his innocence. David asked God to not forsake him. Job told God to go away.

David and Job compared

Psalms 38:2 For thine arrows stick fast in me, and thy hand presseth me sore.

Job 6:4 For the arrows of the Almighty are within me, the poison whereof drinketh up my spirit: the terrors of God do set themselves in array against me.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Psalms 38:3 There is no soundness in my flesh because of thine anger; neither is there any rest in my bones because of my sin.


Job 30:17 My bones are pierced in me in the night season: and my sinews take no rest.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Psalms 38:6 I am troubled; I am bowed down greatly; I go mourning all the day long.


Job 23:15 Therefore am I troubled at his presence: when I consider, I am afraid of him. Job 30:28 I went mourning without the sun: I stood up, and I cried in the congregation.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Psalms 38:5 My wounds stink and are corrupt because of my foolishness.


Job 9:17 For he breaketh me with a tempest, and multiplieth my wounds without cause.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Psalms 38:11 My lovers and my friends stand aloof from my sore; and my kinsmen stand afar off.


Job 19:19All my inward friends abhorred me: and they whom I loved are turned against me. Job 19:17 My breath is strange to my wife, though I intreated for the children's sake of mine own body.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Psalms 38:21 Forsake me not, O LORD: O my God, be not far from me.


Job 10:20 Are not my days few? cease then, and let me alone, that I may take comfort a little, Job 7:19 How long wilt thou not depart from me, nor let me alone till I swallow down my spittle?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Notice how David changed from declaring his righteousness to admitting that no man is justified by his own righteousness. In Psalms 7:8 David declared his righteousness, but in Psalms 53:2-3 David recognizes that no man is righteous.

Psalms 7:8 The LORD shall judge the people: judge me, O LORD, according to my righteousness, and according to mine integrity that is in me.

And then David had his most loyal subject killed.

Psalms 143:2 And enter not into judgment with thy servant: for in thy sight shall no man living be justified.

Psalms 51:3 For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

Psalms 53:2-3 God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God. Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

But you are saying Job is the exception.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Laureate

whatisthebaytreeknown4? What's debate reknown for?
Jan 18, 2012
1,539
421
61
The big island of hawaii 19.5 in the ring of fire
✟58,214.00
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Excellent comparison Thankfulttt!

No I do not see Job as an exception to anything, as I mentioned before, the answer to your initial question is, Yes! to Sinner, Saint, Villain, and Hero!

I share your concern about the distorted views many have towards scriptures, if I see someone throw what appears to be too much weight on one scale, I seek to find the ballance of equal justice, often times it looks like were picking a side, because we are loading up the (other) reciprocating scale;

Here is how I see it, You saw an imballance and made an earnest attempt to establish a fair ballance, however in the process you overstepped a boundary or two, this promoted most of the posters here to throw all of their eggs in the opposite scale to compensate for what we perceived to be a discrepancy;

This appeared to you as if we were trying to say that Job was perfect, perfect, perfect! Yet that is not what we are trying to say at all;

We acknoweldged Elohym's testimony first above all, and though We know Job inadvertently made himself out to be more righteous than Elohym, we do not share the same perspective of the testimonies given;

You perceived Job's sin to be much more blatant, and contrary to what we find written of him, you are quick to pick up the implicative sin of Job, but fail to acknowledge it was only implicative, for when it was brought to his attention through young Elijah, Job never opened his mouth;

Yet Elijah was only one Faithful witness thus far, once Elohym spoke, Job did not hesitate to repent, thus dispelling any notion of the arogant Job you were painting, your perspective of Job was shared by his three friends, but that is because they could not fathom Elohym doing what he did to Job without Elohym holding a criminal case against Job;

There was no such criminal case from the beginning against Job, and Elohym made sure we would know that, by specifying so;

Yet, you still thinking like Job's three friends, are convinced Job must have done something wrong prior to it all, totally ignoring Elohym's testimony, and thus you reason to your self that the righteousness which Elohym spoke of must have been self righteousness;

You are one stubborn cookie (no offense intended), yet I would much rather tangle with you, than those who do not think it is important to know why these things fell upon Job, this you have not left off, just a miss ascription in my estimation;

I would rather you ask, O.k. Mr. Smarty pants Laureate, why then did Elohym permit these things to fall out upon Job, if it wasnt for him being Self Righteous?

Instead of you trying to condemn him for something that Elohym was not condemning him for.

As far as I am concerned, David is a ressurected Job, and according to your fair comparison, it seems to me that He has shown improvement over time;

Even still, Ea'huah chose whom He felt was the best example for the Saints to pay heed to, just because other Saints do not appear on the list of three, doesn't mean they were entirely excluded, when we take into consideration the possibilities of one being reborn into the kingdom;

Many stumble over the passage that informs us that a man is appointed to die once is this world, overlooking, that, from Adam to Noah was the beginning and end of one world according to the scriptures;
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0