What do you believe about the Charismatic gifts?

Godislove94 said:

Hello everyone!

I know this would be better off posted in the Theology thread but I want to try and avoid any denominational bias. After leaving the Pentecostal Church and all of the negative ways being in it impacted me, I have serious doubts about the Charismatic gifts being applicable today. I do not judge anyone who believes they are and I understand that not every church or denomination or tradition is the right thing for everyone, but there was something about what I experienced that did not seem right to me and I am beginning to doubt the validity and source of these gifts we see at this point in history.

Do you believe they are for us and do you believe that what we see in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today is from God? How are you able to justify your position using scripture?

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Never heard of the charisma mat wuteva

Job8 said:

Charles Haddon Spurgeon never claimed to be a prophet.

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Did I say Spurgeon CLAIMED to be a prophet? Hmm.....
I have read many, many of his sermons and parts of his autobiography. I suggest that you might do the same so that you will know what I am referring to. But I'll give you a hint...He knew things about people that he had never met or seen before. Very specific things that they had done, stating minute details, that he had absolutely no way of knowing unless the Holy Spirit had given him revelation knowledge. He spoke directly to some of these people in front of his congregation of thousands. He writes about some of these times himself.

Job8 said:

If Bible tongues are for today, every missionary to a foreign land should have this gift

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I never mentioned divers tongues, so I don't know why you are bringing this up with me.
However, I find it interesting that you think that you know better than the Holy Spirit about when and who that gift should be given to. I also find it interesting how sure you are that the Holy Spirit has not used this gift from time to time for witnessing and convincing.

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." I Cor 12:28

Some might be interested in "70 Reasons for Speaking in Tongues" Dr. Hamon

Svt4Him said:

Counterfeit to what? And you wonder why we are told to not despise some of the gifts?

If you believe they passed, why do you believe this? Abuse in a church? I have been abused in a family therefore families don't exist.

Weird sort of logic.

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yup ... ser this often ..folks attributing negativity from frail fallible mankind and attributing it to the manifestations of the Holy Spirit in a blanket judgment.. not wise .

it is possible they have merely been listening to carnal cessationist tripe instead of reading the word of God and that unbelieving spirit has beguiled them ..either tht or they are simply a cessationist clothed in sheep skin

Job8 said:

Hank77,
If Bible tongues are for today, every missionary to a foreign land should have this gift to the extent that they speak fluently in that foreign language without having to learn it as others do. In other words, it is a supernatural communication in Spanish, or Turkish, or Telugu. Now, honestly, is that what we see all around us (even among Pentecostals and Charismatics)?

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this could not display a greater level of non comprehension of that particular manifestation of the holy Ghost ..
the gifts are manifestations of Him in us saying they are not for today is like saying the Holy Spirit is not for today and the fruits of the Spirit is not for today and thus God is not for today ....
it is nothing more then cherry picking the parts of God you personally have been told not to like and casting them out -it is following a mans unbelieving teachings instead of having Faith in God alone .

tturt said:

"And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." I Cor 12:28

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straight forward unambiguous truth.. Love it

Pedrito said:

The second thought is prompted by the interesting article submitted by Svt4Him:
https://www.bereanbiblesociety.org/when-did-the-gift-of-tongues-cease/

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Nope, wasn't submitted by me, only quoted. Didn't even read it!!!

In Post #17 MWood asked:

Explain what you mean by, "for a walk of sacrifice."

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Cultural background can play an important part in the asking of questions, and the answers given.

I remember when I was in my teens it was a normal observation in Australia that:

• In the American culture of the time, if a pastor wasn't driving an expensive car, then his ministry was in question because God wasn't blessing him.
• In the British culture of the time, if a pastor was driving an expensive car, then his ministry was in question because he was displaying worldliness.

These days in Australia, the American model has largely replaced the British one – the “prosperity gospel” is rife.

But which perspective is correct? Does God's Holy Word have anything to say about it?

Philippians 2:5-8
"5 Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
6 who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but made himself nothing, taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
8 And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.” (ESV)
Jesus' walk was one of humility and self sacrifice.

1 John 2:6
“He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.”
That seems to be clear. Our walk should be one of humility and sacrifice, as our Saviour's was.

Philippians 2:3
“Let nothing be done through strife or vainglory; but in lowliness of mind let each esteem other better than themselves.”
Does that that not specifically cut out all forms of showing off, for instance, and being proud of possessions and wealth?

Galatians 5:24
“And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.”
Wealth, expensive possessions, temptations of the human body ….

Titus 2:11,12
“11 For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men,
12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;”

I suggest that statements in Scripture regarding abundant life, fullness, supplying of need, etc. are to be viewed (interpreted) in the light of the above.

I hope the question has been answered adequately.



One unfortunate symptom or result of the “prosperity gospel” is the disillusionment and loss of faith experienced by many people, because the prosperity they have been taught to expect (as supposedly promised by God in return for giving significant amounts of money to their churches for instance), has not eventuated. Those people fell for appeals to the flesh presented as God's will for their lives. I submit that God is defamed by such deceptive practices.



Another matter.

In Post #18, Hank77 referred to a link I had posted.

Actually, I didn't post that link as such. It appeared in Post #9. I merely referred to it to point out what I believed was an oversight within it.

However, I find Hank77's penetrating statements in Post #20 difficult to refute.



And what about the challenge near the bottom of Post #14? No takers?

Pedrito said:

One unfortunate symptom or result of the “prosperity gospel” is the disillusionment and loss of faith experienced by many people, because the prosperity they have been taught to expect (as supposedly promised by God in return for giving significant amounts of money to their churches for instance), has not eventuated. Those people fell for appeals to the flesh presented as God's will for their lives. I submit that God is defamed by such deceptive practices.

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I have seen the same and I have seen people go without the necessities, like meds. in order to obey God, according to this doctrine.

Greetings Saints ;

http://biblehub.com/isr/mark/16.htm

15And He said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the Good News to every creature.

16“He who has believed and has been immersed, shall be saved, but he who has not believed shall be condemned.

17“And these signs shall accompany the ones who believe: In My Name they shall cast out demons, they shall speak with renewed tongues,

18they shall take up snakes, and if they drink any deadly drink it shall by no means hurt them, they shall lay hands on the sick and they shall get well.”

[ Fact or fiction ^^ ? ]

First ; I ask any serious believer to find a second and third witness to ; http://biblehub.com/isr/1_corinthians/13.htm ; Verse # 8

8Love never fails. And whether there be prophecies, they shall be inactive; or tongues, they shall cease; or knowledge, it shall be inactive.

9For we know in part and we prophesy in part.

10But when that which is perfect has come, then that which is in part shall be inactive.

I will give you a three witnesses of Scripture for ;

12For now we see in a mirror, dimly, but then ' face to face '. Now I know in part, but then I shall know, as I also have been known.

13And now belief, expectation, and love remain – these three. But the greatest of these is love.

Face to face ! As the human flesh dies , the nanosecond later ALL stand " Face to face " at the GWT Judgement , face to face and shall know ALL as their known . ; http://biblehub.com/isr/acts/25.htm 16“To them I answered, ‘It is not the Roman practice to give up any man to destruction before the accused meets the accusers face to face, and has a chance to answer for himself concerning the charge against him.’ ; http://biblehub.com/isr/1_peter/1.htm

17And if you call on the Father, who without partiality judges according to each one’s work, pass the time of your sojourning in fear,

18knowing that you were redeemed from your futile way of life inherited from your fathers, not with what is corruptible, silver or gold,

19but with the precious blood of Messiah, as of a lamb unblemished and spotless,

20foreknown, indeed, before the foundation of the world, but manifested in these last times for your sakes,

21who through Him believe in Elohim who raised Him from the dead and gave Him esteem, so that your belief and expectation are in Elohim.

22Now that you have cleansed your lives in obeying the truth through the Spirit to unfeigned brotherly love, love one another fervently with a clean heart,

23having been born again – not of corruptible seed, but incorruptible – through the living Word of Elohim, which remains forever,

24because “All flesh is as grass, and all the esteem of man as the flower of the grass. The grass withers, and its flower falls away,

25but the Word of Elohim remains forever.”a And this is the Word, announced as Good News to you. ; http://biblehub.com/isr/john/16.htm

20“Truly, truly, I say to you that you shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice. And you shall be grieved, but your grief shall become joy.

21“The woman has grief when she is in labour, because her hour has come, but as soon as she has given birth to the child, she no longer remembers the affliction, for joy that a man was born into the world.

22“And you, therefore, have grief now, but I shall see you again and your heart shall rejoice, and no one takes your joy away from you.

23“And in that day you shall ask Me none at all. Truly, truly, I say to you, whatever you ask the Father in My Name He shall give you. ; http://biblehub.com/isr/1_peter/4.htm

10As each one has received a gift, serve one another, as good trustees of the manifold favour of Elohim.

11If anyone speaks, let it be as the Words of Elohim. If anyone serves, let it be as with the strength which Elohim provides, so that Elohim might be praised in it all through יהושע Messiah, to whom belong the esteem and the rule forever and ever. Amĕn. ; http://biblehub.com/isr/1_john/4.htm ;

2By this you know the Spirit of Elohim: Every spirit that confesses that יהושע Messiah has come in the flesh is of Elohim,

3and every spirit that does not confess that יהושע Messiah has come in the flesh is not of Elohim. And this is the spirit of the anti-messiah which you heard is coming, and now is already in the world.

7Beloved ones, let us love one another, because love is of Elohim, and everyone who loves has been born of Elohim, and knows Elohim.

8The one who does not love does not know Elohim, for Elohim is love.

17By this love has been perfected with us, in order that we might have boldness in the ' day of judgment ', because as He is so are we in this world. ( Face to face . )

" The third thought is a challenge.

If I make the as yet unsupported statement that the book of Acts clearly and unequivocally defines when and how the miraculous spiritual gifts were to disappear (referred to above); and that a truly dedicated student of the Bible should be able to identify where that definition is:

• - Has anyone found it or been taught where it is?
• ( Someone " anyone " would have to raise their hand . )
  
• - Is anyone willing to read through the book of Acts carefully, looking for this information, until they find it?
• ( My guess would be , only those that believe and obey Acts 2 . )
  
• - Could it be that some people would rather not look for it because they don't want it to be there?
• ( 37“And do not judge, and you shall not be judged at all. Condemn not, and you shall not be condemned at all. Forgive, and you shall be forgiven. )

I'm looking forward to some interesting feedback."

I would like some , also .

In His Name .

diversities of tongues includes individual tongues usually referred to as prayer language (I Cor 14:4) This isn't for an emotional high. It isn't a seal of approval. -(2) church edification - Message to the church. Usually there's a message in tongues with interpretation (I Cor 14:27-28).

Tongues are to glorify G_d (John 15:26), help pray in the spirit to Him (I cor 14), magnifies Him (Acts 10:47), etc.

In Scripture the groups that received tongues, it states "all" received (Acts 2:4; 4:31; 10:44; 19:2) with one exception - on the Day of Pentecost, not in the Upper Room, where there were mockers of tongues.

Tongues are a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17).

Thank you ron4shua for your response, and the information provided. (Post #30)

A few notes.

1. You may not be aware that in the manuscripts that have been described as the earliest and most reliable, the Mark 16:9-20 passage is absent. It is therefore considered to be an interpolation (later addition), and not reliable. I understand the NIV has a footnote to that effect. Maybe other translations have as well.

2. With respect to reading through the book of Acts carefully (to find out when the supernatural spiritual gifts were to cease), I will drop a hint. If a person stops at Acts 2, that person has not read far enough. The answer is definitely there for people who are willing to make the effort to find it.

3. Stating that people might not want to look for that information in Acts because they don't want the information to be there, is not a statement of judgement – it is a simple statement of fact. People who want to believe that supernatural spiritual gifts (including “tongues”) are “alive and well” today, reject all evidence to the contrary, and definitely won't go looking for such evidence. (That applies to other pet beliefs as well.) I suspect you know that.


In that same general vein, let me tell a quick (practical) story and then ask a question.

A couple from a church you attend have gone into say, the deep Amazon to a newly discovered and unreached tribe. The journey takes some weeks. They have three translators to help them – English to Portuguese, Portuguese to a nearby local language, and that language to the tribal language.

One of the things they teach is John 11:26 “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.”

The woman becomes gravely ill and the couple returns to your country. Her health is so badly affected that she can never go back.

The pastor asks you to devote six months of your time to go and look after the tribe until a permanent replacement couple is found. You agree and off you go. They have been without a shepherd for some months by the time you arrive.

When you get there you find their faith is in tatters. They had understood John 11:26 (“shall never die”) to pertain to their physical lives, yet some people who had professed belief and been baptised, have died. They think those people are lost.

Question: What would you say to them?


(Multiple people are invited to answer the question.)

Job8 said:

If Bible tongues are for today, every missionary to a foreign land should have this gift to the extent that they speak fluently in that foreign language without having to learn it as others do.

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It is said tongues is the least of the gifts, and just might be the least of this issue. The larger question being, does God still heal?

Does God do miracles as a witness of Christ, like when Jesus healed every sick person who came to him?

Does he still heal their bodies to confirm the word of the gospel?

Or, does he heal to spare the saved from suffering, extend their life, or another purpose?

What do you think.

Free at Calvary said:

It is said tongues is the least of the gifts, and just might be the least of this issue. The larger question being, does God still heal? Does God do miracles as a witness of Christ, like when Jesus healed every sick person who came to him? Does he still heal their bodies to confirm the word of the gospel?
Or, does he heal to spare the saved from suffering, extend their life, or another purpose?
What do you think.

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There is no question that the Lord healed absolutely everyone who came to Him (or even those who did not come to Him). There is also no question that one of the miraculous sign gifts for the apostles was healing in the name of Christ. The issue is whether that gift of miraculous healings is to be found among Christians to day (and not just Pentecostal/Charismatics). Genuine spiritual gifts should be evident in every kind of Bible-believing church.

If one is honest, one will have to admit that the gift of healing is practically absent today. This is consistent with Scripture which calls the sign gifts "the signs of an apostle". Those who claim to have this gift today are often found to be charlatans. We should also be fully aware that there are counterfeit miracles which occur today, and we cannot discount Satanic influence in those cases.

On the other hand, Divine healing in answer to prayer is a daily reality. Some of these healings are properly "miracles", but not through a person with sign gifts. These are God's miracles. And James 5:13-20 provides a God-given method for Christians to obtain Divine healing through the elders of the church. However, there are several conditions which must be met, and if those conditions are absent, then healing may not occur.

God is more concerned with the healing of the soul and spirit than physical healing, and there are many good and godly Christians who suffer all kinds of maladies and disabilities in spite of prayers. So physical health is not necessarily tied into spiritual health, but some Christians may be unhealthy because of unrepented sins.

Thanks Job8, I knew you'd have a great answer.

I'm in agreement with one small exception....Paul said, "the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal"...suggesting spiritual gifts were for every member of the body of Christ as the Holy Spirit saw fit, and not only the Apostles.

tturt said:

diversities of tongues includes individual tongues usually referred to as prayer language (I Cor 14:4) This isn't for an emotional high. It isn't a seal of approval. -(2) church edification - Message to the church. Usually there's a message in tongues with interpretation (I Cor 14:27-28).

Tongues are to glorify G_d (John 15:26), help pray in the spirit to Him (I cor 14), magnifies Him (Acts 10:47), etc.

In Scripture the groups that received tongues, it states "all" received (Acts 2:4; 4:31; 10:44; 19:2) with one exception - on the Day of Pentecost, not in the Upper Room, where there were mockers of tongues.

Tongues are a sign TO unbelievers OF believers (I Cor 14:22 and Mark 16:17).

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in bold above .. -a point i repeat so often .
i was looking at the words diversity of tongues .. literally breeds and species of tongues .. there are forms of spiritual communications (languages ) which transcend earthly flesh based tongues . The holy Spirit makes intercession for us with groans which "cannot be uttered" - in other words. there are not human words which can be used to express what he is saying .

* Thank you Pedrito , ( for your post # 32 )

Pedrito said:

Thank you ron4shua for your response, and the information provided. (Post #30)

A few notes.

1. You may not be aware that in the manuscripts that have been described as the earliest and most reliable, the Mark 16:9-20 passage is absent. It is therefore considered to be an interpolation (later addition), and not reliable. I understand the NIV has a footnote to that effect. Maybe other translations have as well.

* Yes dear brother I have been aware for three and a half or four decades . There are hundreds of Scripture " passage is absent " also a multitude ADDED , and as Mark 16:9-20 and Matthew 28:19“Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit, In TRANSLATION VERSIONS . All Versions are biased to a degree by ignorance or malice to support their doctrinal statement of predisposed dogma malice .
Just because something is not in early MSS is a flag but doesn't rule out it's authenticity . http://biblehub.com/isr/isaiah/28.htm ;
11For with a jabbering lip and a foreign tongue He speaks to this people,

12to whom He said, “This is the rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “This is the refreshing.” But they would not hear.

One more witness ; http://biblehub.com/isr/isaiah/6.htm
5And I said, “Woe to me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips – for my eyes have seen the Sovereign, יהוה of hosts.”

6And one of the seraphim flew to me, having in his hand a live coal which he had taken with the tongs from the altar.

7And he touched my mouth with it, and said, “See, this has touched your lips; your crookedness is taken away, and your sin is covered.”

8And I heard the voice of יהוה, saying, “Whom do I send, and who would go for Us?” And I said, “Here am I! Send me.”

9And He said, “Go, and you shall say to this people, ‘Hearing, you hear, but do not understand; and seeing, you see, but do not know.’
http://biblehub.com/isr/jeremiah/1.htm


2. With respect to reading through the book of Acts carefully (to find out when the supernatural spiritual gifts were to cease), I will drop a hint. If a person stops at Acts 2, that person has not read far enough. The answer is definitely there for people who are willing to make the effort to find it.

* I've read over four dozen translation VERSIONS of New Testament Scripture and own and read , cover to cover thirty two Versions . With my Strong's and Vine's , HUB , Gateway and the net . I don't claim to be the brightest bulb in the box but I have word studied Acts more times than a light read .
I believe the Gospels and book of Acts is a prerequisite to reading the remainder of " The Good News ",

3. Stating that people might not want to look for that information in Acts because they don't want the information to be there, is not a statement of judgement – it is a simple statement of fact. People who want to believe that supernatural spiritual gifts (including “tongues”) are “alive and well” today, reject all evidence to the contrary, and definitely won't go looking for such evidence. (That applies to other pet beliefs as well.) I suspect you know that.

* No intention on my part is intended as an affront towards you .


In that same general vein, let me tell a quick (practical) story and then ask a question.

A couple from a church you attend have gone into say, the deep Amazon to a newly discovered and unreached tribe. The journey takes some weeks. They have three translators to help them – English to Portuguese, Portuguese to a nearby local language, and that language to the tribal language.

One of the things they teach is John 11:26 “And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die.”

The woman becomes gravely ill and the couple returns to your country. Her health is so badly affected that she can never go back.

The pastor asks you to devote six months of your time to go and look after the tribe until a permanent replacement couple is found. You agree and off you go. They have been without a shepherd for some months by the time you arrive.

When you get there you find their faith is in tatters. They had understood John 11:26 (“shall never die”) to pertain to their physical lives, yet some people who had professed belief and been baptised, have died. They think those people are lost.

Question: What would you say to them?

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* So then my brother in Messiah , you are saying your whimsical story based on John 11: 26 , Jesus/ YAHshua's words are a fairy tail , and your words are " it is a simple statement of fact " , our Messiah lied through His teeth ? How many more of our Masters words are bogus ?
http://biblehub.com/isr/john/11.htm ;
25יהושע said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he dies, he shall live.

26“And everyone that is living and believing in Me shall never die at all. Do you believe this?”
http://biblehub.com/isr/mark/12.htm ;
24And יהושע answering, said to them, “Is this not why you go astray, because you do not know the Scripturesa nor the power of Elohim?

25“For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as messengers in the heavens.

26“And concerning the dead, that they rise – have you not read in the book of Mosheh, at the bush, how Elohim spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ’?

27“He is not the Elohim of the dead, but Elohim of the living. You, then, go greatly astray.”
http://biblehub.com/isr/luke/20.htm ;
34And יהושע answering, said to them, “The sons of this age marry and are given in marriage,

35but those who are counted worthy of attaining that age, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are they given in marriage,

36for neither is it possible for them to die any more, because they are like messengers and are sons of Elohim, being sons of the resurrection.

37“But that the dead are raised, even Mosheh showed at the bush when he called יהוה ‘the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ.’

38“Now He is not the Elohim of the dead, but of the living, for all live to Him.”

Here's one for you my brother ;
41And He said to them, “How do they say that the Messiah is the Son of Dawiḏ?

42“For Dawiḏ himself said in the Book of Psalms, ‘יהוה said to my Master, “sit at My right hand,

43until I make Your enemies a footstool of Your feet.” ’

44“Dawiḏ then calls Him ‘Master,’ how is He then his Son?”

45And in the hearing of all the people, He said to His taught ones,

46“Beware of the scribes, who like to walk in long robes, and love greetings in the market-places, and the best seats in the congregations, and the best places at feasts,

47who devour widows’ houses, and for a show make long prayers. They shall receive greater judgment.”

http://biblehub.com/isr/matthew/21.htm ;

24And יהושע answering, said to them, “I shall ask you one question too, which if you answer Me, I also shall say to you by what authority I do these:

25“The immersion of Yoḥanan, where did it come from? From heaven or from men?” So they reasoned among themselves, saying, “If we say, ‘From heaven,’ He shall say to us, ‘Then why did you not believe him?’

26“But if we say, ‘From men,’ we fear the crowd, for all hold Yoḥanan as a prophet.”

27And they answered יהושע and said, “We do not know.” And He said to them, “Neither do I say to you by what authority I do these.

Peace to you my brother .

Hallelu-YAH .

I know they continue, and that God has always used them when He wants to at the moments that best suit His purpose.

We see in Paul's letter to the Galatians, for instance, that while Paul was with them, he was plagued by serious eye problems at the same time that God was working miracles among the the Galatians.

Godislove94 said:

Hello everyone!

I know this would be better off posted in the Theology thread but I want to try and avoid any denominational bias. After leaving the Pentecostal Church and all of the negative ways being in it impacted me, I have serious doubts about the Charismatic gifts being applicable today. I do not judge anyone who believes they are and I understand that not every church or denomination or tradition is the right thing for everyone, but there was something about what I experienced that did not seem right to me and I am beginning to doubt the validity and source of these gifts we see at this point in history.

Do you believe they are for us and do you believe that what we see in Pentecostal/Charismatic churches today is from God? How are you able to justify your position using scripture?

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There is a difference between a Charismatic Church and a Pentecostal Church. I received quite a bit of teaching on the Charismas or the gifts of the Holy Spirit. http://www.charismamag.com/spirit/supernatural/17428-the-gift-list There are a lot of scriptures to study about the Gifts of the Spirit. The Liturgy says these are the gifts of God for the People of God. So the gifts are given to benefit the whole Body of Christ. They are given to the Church, not to individuals in the Church. As God is working to build up, strengthen and edify the whole Body, not individual parts of the body.

Pentecostal churches have a different focus. If anything they tend to be more Holiness oriented. Although I suppose different churches are going to have a different focus. Some churches have a teaching about how baptism in the holy spirit has the evidence of speaking in tongues. I am not sure how they reconcile that with Paul saying not everyone speaks in tongues. Perhaps this was all an issue in the early church when Paul tells us: "covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way."

Job8 said:

There is no question that the Lord healed absolutely everyone who came to Him (or even those who did not come to Him). There is also no question that one of the miraculous sign gifts for the apostles was healing in the name of Christ. The issue is whether that gift of miraculous healings is to be found among Christians to day (and not just Pentecostal/Charismatics). Genuine spiritual gifts should be evident in every kind of Bible-believing church.

If one is honest, one will have to admit that the gift of healing is practically absent today. This is consistent with Scripture which calls the sign gifts "the signs of an apostle". Those who claim to have this gift today are often found to be charlatans. We should also be fully aware that there are counterfeit miracles which occur today, and we cannot discount Satanic influence in those cases.

On the other hand, Divine healing in answer to prayer is a daily reality. Some of these healings are properly "miracles", but not through a person with sign gifts. These are God's miracles. And James 5:13-20 provides a God-given method for Christians to obtain Divine healing through the elders of the church. However, there are several conditions which must be met, and if those conditions are absent, then healing may not occur.

God is more concerned with the healing of the soul and spirit than physical healing, and there are many good and godly Christians who suffer all kinds of maladies and disabilities in spite of prayers. So physical health is not necessarily tied into spiritual health, but some Christians may be unhealthy because of unrepented sins.

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Yup, easier to say the signs have passed, thereby nullifying what Jesus said when He said the signs will follow those who believe. Or maybe, just maybe, we've bought into a different gospel that doesn't require us to take up our cross, be obedient and endure. Notice in March 16, it's the believers that are laying their hands on the sick and the sick are getting physically healed, not spiritually.

Ya, the easier way is always the right way.