Old Testament Diet - Was God being a Bully?

Strong in Him

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Leviticus 11:44-45 For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”

It was a common practice for Jewish boys to memorize the Torah by the age of 12 and then to memorize more of the OT if they were to become a disciple of a rabbi. Paul would have been required to have memorized the entire OT in order to become a disciple of Gamaliel. So it was a high context society where someone could quote a verse to bring to mind an entire passage, such as when Jesus quoted the first line of Psalms 22 while on the cross to bring to everyone's mind the entire Psalm. The NT authors quoted or alluded to the OT thousands of times and often times looking at the surrounding context of what they are quoting from helps to give a better understanding of what they are saying. So 1 Peter 1:16 would have brought to mind Leviticus 11:44-45, which talks specifically about dietary laws and telling us to have a holy conduct meant following God's instructions for how to have a holy conduct, so that was Peter making sure that they understood that they were to follow those laws.

If Peter was writing only to Jews, who had that practice or who were used to that, then possibly that is what they would have thought to begin with. But he wouldn't have expected others to read between the lines and assume that they knew what he was saying. Would a Gentile - or we - who read those words have thought, "ah, Peter says ' be holy because I am holy'. This appears in the OT where God is talking about food and hygiene laws, so therefore Peter must be saying that in order to be holy we have to keep all these laws"? If Peter was writing to Gentiles with little knowledge of the OT, or to people who didn't realise that quoting part of a verse brought to mind the rest of it - or may have known that one day such people would be reading his letter - he would have spelt out, plainly "it is God's will for you to follow all the food laws that he gave to our nation back at Mt Sinai, so go and read them and find out what they are."

We don't become righteous and holy, by having a righteous and holy conduct, but rather those who are declared righteous and holy by faith are called to have a righteous and holy conduct. In the same way that someone who is declared to be a Firefighter in now to go out and fight fires, being declared righteous and holy means we are now to go do what is righteous and holy.

Yes. We are made righteous and holy in Jesus.
God "chose us in him before the foundation of the world to be holy and righteous in his sight" (Ephesians 1:4) Jesus was made sin for us so that, in him, we might become the righteousness of God, (2 Corinthians 5:21).
If we are in Christ, if we abide in Jesus, we are righteous and God sees us as righteous. This gives us freedom to live in righteousness and holiness - because we already are; that is how God sees us. Also, if we love God we will want to live holy lives.

Neither Jesus, Peter, Paul or any of the other disciples said that being in Christ means obeying all the OT food laws and we cannot be in Christ unless we obey them.

God did not give the law to Moses and the Israelites to be a heavy legalistic burden or to put them in bondage, but rather it was meant to be received by faith as a divine privilege and a delight, as the Psalmists understood (Psalms 1:2, Psalms 119), and as Paul understood (Romans 7:22).

That's the point - he gave it to Moses and the Israelites.
Since then, Jesus, the Messiah has come, fulfilled Jewish law for the Jews (if they can accept it) and laid down his life for us all - Jews and Gentiles - so we can be reconciled to God and have eternal life. Jesus is the second Adam, bringing life where the first Adam brought death, and sealed the NEW covenant, prophesied through Jeremiah, with his blood. Hebrews says that where there is a new covenant, the old is obsolete.

Honestly, you shouldn't have to tell someone who is a servant of God that they should obey God and you shouldn't have to tell someone who a disciple of Jesus that they should imitate his sinless example of obedience.

You don't.
But if the NT writers expected their readers/audiences to obey Jewish food laws, that had been given to other people many years previously; if this was vital for living a holy life, was a command from God and was his will for them as Gentile believers, then I feel sure that they would have spelt it out and made absolutely sure these Gentile believers knew what was expected of them. Instead, what do we find in Acts 15? The Jewish believers in Jerusalem sent a letter to Gentile believers telling them to abstain from blood and from food offered to idols. No mention at all of what to eat or having to keep the rest of the law.

Jesus didn't come to start a new religion, but rather he was born a Jew, became a Jewish rabbi, had Jewish disciples, a is the Jewish Messiah in fulfillment of Jewish Prophecy. Muslims who are waiting for the Mahdi to come have no expectations that if he came he would start a new religion, but rather he would bring about the fullness of Islam, and in the same way Jesus brought about the fullness of Judaism. So Christianity is a Jewish religion and it is the fullness of Judaism, which Gentiles have been grafted into.

I don't think that's how the Jews see it.
Christianity has Jewish origins, Jewish Scriptures, a Jewish Messiah and was probably almost exclusively Jewish for the first few years. I do feel that any Jew who accepts Jesus as their Messiah has become a complete, or fulfilled, Jew.
BUT many of us are not Jews and never have been.
There are similarities between us. God rescued the Israelites from slavery and death in Egypt; we have been rescued from slavery to sin and saved from eternal death by God himself, who sent his Son to die for us. The Israelites were given God's law and were chosen to be his people; we believe in Jesus who IS the Word of God and are his people, and God's children, if we have received eternal life and his Holy Spirit. We don't have the wonderful, rich tradition that Jewish believers have; we have Jesus, only Jesus. But he is enough.

I grew up attending a Baptist church for 30 years, so I grew being taught in a similar way as you. It's only in the last few years that I've been studying the Jewish cultural context of the Bible that I was compelled to change my views about God's law and I've found that it makes much more sense of the Bible.

Studying the OT is great - and I would say necessary and advisable. I love Exodus and even Leviticus is interesting now. I haven't ditched the OT because I believe in Jesus; far from it. I can see now where Jesus' coming and ministry were prophesied and how he fulfils the feasts and so on. That is not to say that I have to put myself under Jewish law. And by the way, Jewish law isn't just about not eating pork, it includes circumcision, not wearing clothes of mixed fabrics, declaring yourself, or being declared, unclean at certain times (especially if you are a woman). It involves stoning people to death for blasphemy, adultery, or not keeping the Sabbath, it includes instructions to men about beards
Leviticus gives instructions about offering sacrifices for sin - yet we don't need to do this because Jesus offered his life, once and for all, upon the cross, and even the Jews don't do this now. So Jews and Gentiles alike disregard that part of the law.
If the law given to Hebrews applies to us too, then all of it applies - we can't pick and choose which parts of his law are important or acceptable.

The law is not about how we become justified, but about how God wants us to live out lives by faith as we grow in our relationship with Him and are made to be more like Christ in his character and obedience to God.

Jesus has told, and shown me, how he wants me to live my life, and no one did/does he say "you MUST avoid pork, shellfish, polyester/cotton mixes in order to prove to God that you are holy." Nowhere has he commanded Gentile believers to come to him for salvation and then do everything that God commanded Moses.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I'm not in bondage to sin. I'm also not in bondage to a law which was not given to me in the first place.
The law was written for Israel. YOU were not the primary person for any of the Bible. It was all written for someone else. Except for a few parts of the old covenant that was written for our sake. The question is how does the Bible apply to us today. What does the Bible mean for our generation. What is the lesson for us today. As a gentle you are grafted in today. Yet we are told "if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." Of course He is talking about producing fruit. Only we are told not to quench or grieve the Holy spirit. Somehow you believe you can live a life of lawlessness and still please God. I say we have to live righteous and holy before God and the Law is our teacher to show us how then we are to live a life that is acceptable before God.

Note: it seems like John wrote rev for us. We are told he wrote Rev for the 7 churches that were there at that time. So the question is how does the book or letter of Rev apply to us today in our generation in our day and age.

22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, forbearance, kindness, goodness, faithfulness,23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

Peter warns us about Paul's letters: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." So we need to be carefully to understand what Paul is saying in the context of who Paul is talking to.

Jesus clearly warns us that we need to be careful of the traditional understanding of the Bible: The traditions of men - which nullify scriptures or are not supported by the holy writ.
 
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Strong in Him

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The law was written for Israel. YOU were not the primary person for any of the Bible. It was all written for someone else. Except for a few parts of the old covenant that was written for our sake. The question is how does the Bible apply to us today.

The first question is, "Does all of the Bible apply to us today?"
I suggest not. The Bible is God revealing himself and the OT is the story of God's people - how he spoke to Noah, how he called Abraham, who responded in faith, how the whole nation went to Egypt and were recued from there by God, how they met God at his Holy mountain and he gave them his word which would shape them into the people he wanted them to be; how they broke that covenant, again and again, but God did not give up or wash his hands of them, but made a new covenant. It shows God's faithfulness, love, perseverance and determination to have a people who would love him and who he could call his own.
If he gave a word to someone, that doesn't mean that that word applied also to someone else in a different situation.

In the NT; Paul wrote letters to various churches, partly to answer their questions and problems. The problems of one church may not have been the problems of another. Paul told the Corinthians to stop abusing the Lord's supper, for example; I very much doubt the church at Philippi would have thought, "oh, we'd better start abusing the Lord's supper so that we can then obey Paul's instructions to stop." Paul told Timothy to stop drinking only water but to drink wine because of his frequent illnesses; does that mean that Barnabas would have automatically followed the same advice? What about when Paul excluded someone (Trophimus?) from a missionary trip because he was ill? Why did he not just dose him up with a bottle of wine?

We read many things in the Bible. All are God's word, but are they all God's word, or commands, to US, now, in the west in the 21st century? Do we apply all the words in the Bible to our lives today?

Yet we are told "if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either." Of course He is talking about producing fruit. Only we are told not to quench or grieve the Holy spirit. Somehow you believe you can live a life of lawlessness and still please God. I say we have to live righteous and holy before God and the Law is our teacher to show us how then we are to live a life that is acceptable before God.

I say that Jesus is our teacher - showing us the way to God, giving us eternal life, giving us his own life to reconcile us to God so that we can become his children. He told us to love as he loves, he told us to follow him and his example and he said that we cannot even come to the Father without him.
Jesus is not only my teacher, but my Lord and Saviour. He is the Word of God, the Alpha and the Omega, the author and perfector of my faith - not the law, which he has fulfilled anyway.

Peter warns us about Paul's letters: "His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." So we need to be carefully to understand what Paul is saying in the context of who Paul is talking to.

Exactly.
You wouldn't try to obey Paul's words to Timothy to "do your best to come to me quickly and bring my cloak with you when you do" (2 Timothy 4:9-13.) That is an instruction from Paul - which has been kept in the Bible, the word of God - yet is clearly for Timothy alone. That alone should show us that there are some words/verses in the Bible which are not for us but only for those to whom they were written at the time.
I would say that his words to Timothy about drinking only wine, also fall into that category. Also his words to the Corinthians about wishing that everyone was unmarried, as he was. And I hope no one would obey Paul's words to the Galatians that anyone who was teaching them about circumcision (obeying the law) should go and castrate themselves!

Not every word, teaching or concept in the Bible is to be applied, and followed, by us today just because it IS in the Bible.
 
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joshua 1 9

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The first question is, "Does all of the Bible apply to us today?"
I suggest not.
All of the Bible applies to us today or there would be no reason for it to be there. Paul explains how this works and how we can apply the Old Covenant to our lives even though we are under the new covenant. He says:

Now these things occurred as examples to keep us from setting our hearts on evil things as they did.

7 Do not be idolaters, as some of them were; as it is written: "The people sat down to eat and drink and got up to indulge in pagan revelry."
8 We should not commit sexual immorality, as some of them did--and in one day twenty-three thousand of them died.
9 We should not test the Lord, as some of them did--and were killed by snakes.
10 And do not grumble, as some of them did--and were killed by the destroying angel.
11 These things happened to them as examples and were written down as warnings for us, on whom the fulfillment of the ages has come.
12 So, if you think you are standing firm, be careful that you don't fall!
13 No temptation has seized you except what is common to man. And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.
 
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Strong in Him

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All of the Bible applies to us today or there would be no reason for it to be there.

So what's the reason for Paul's specific instructions to Timothy to visit him shortly and to take his cloak to him?
How does that apply to us today?

Some of the things in the Bible are written so that we can learn from their example, or as a testimony to how God was faithful to them/helped them in that situation. They are written for our instruction (2 Timothy 3:16), but it doesn't mean they are a command or have to be followed exactly by us today.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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The law was given to that generation "for their good" so as weird as some of the regulations seem now, they were given to preserve the slaves from egypt in the wilderness and then later when they had their own country.
 
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joshua 1 9

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Exactly.
You wouldn't try to obey Paul's words to Timothy to "do your best to come to me quickly and bring my cloak with you when you do" (2 Timothy 4:9-13.) That is an instruction from Paul - which has been kept in the Bible, the word of God - yet is clearly for Timothy alone.
There is some sort of application for us today or it would not be in our Bible.
 
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joshua 1 9

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So what's the reason for Paul's specific instructions to Timothy to visit him shortly and to take his cloak to him? How does that apply to us today?
One way today is when we have to deal with revisionism. People that try to say that Mark did not write the book of Mark. We know that these are real letters written by real people. You start to feel like you know them. You want to get to know them better as I am sure we well when we get to Heaven and get a chance to talk to them.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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Why, then, was the law given at all? It was added because of transgressions until the Seed to whom the promise referred had come. The law was given through angels and entrusted to a mediator. A mediator, however, implies more than one party; but God is one. (Galatians 3:19-20)

Dietary laws are more angelic teachings for a particular culture, but the standard to strive for is to apply the teachings of God now that we now have "the mind of Christ"
 
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joshua 1 9

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Dietary laws are more angelic teachings for a particular culture, but the standard to strive for is to apply the teachings of God now that we now have "the mind of Christ"
I attend a real international fellowship. Africans attend from various nations in Africa as well as Asians and Americans. People have some differences for example the Asians tend to like food that would be bitter for most Americans. Their taste buds are a bit different. But what is healthy for one is healthy for all. So the diet laws for the Hebrews are not isolated to people in the Middle East but all people from all over the world would be well advised to eat right for their strength and health. Actually it is more of a problem here in Amerian that we have so much disregard for eating foods that are good for us. I attend a class in eating the right foods and the dietitian that teaches the class pretty much argues with people all day long about this sort of thing. They just do not want to make the choice to eat healthy foods. Even though it will add years to their life. And give them a better quality of life with less medical intervention.

It can be difficult and confusing though. Take milk for example. She recommends low fat yogurt for the calcium esp as we get older they want us to have more calcium. She wants to avoid sugar because of diabetes, and avoid fat because of heart disease, avoid additives because they could cause cancer. There are hundreds of milk products like Cheese, Ice Cream and so on. Yet she narrows it all down to the one she feels is best for everyone whatever their health condition is.

Yet Moses talks about a land flowing with milk and honey. Perhaps in moderation there is no problem with milk and honey. But in some people they can cause health problems. Perhaps we need to be careful not to get to much of a good thing. Clearly there is no law against milk and honey but science tells us there can be a problem if we are not careful.

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There is some sort of application for us today or it would not be in our Bible.

There is no application for us in Paul's words;
"Do your best to come to me quickly. ............ When you come, bring the cloak that I left with Carpus at Troas, and my scrolls".
These are personal remarks in a letter to Timothy. How on earth can any of us even begin to apply that today? Where is Paul? Where are his cloak and scrolls? How do millions of Christians get hold of them and take them to Troas?

There are other comments in the Bible that are personal, and individual, to the person to whom they were written.
E.g:
Romans chapter 16; Paul sends greetings to a large number of people. It is interesting to read about his fellow co-workers, but it doesn't apply to us; these people are all dead.
Colossians 4:7-18; Paul sends more personal greetings.
1 Timothy 5:23; Paul tells Timothy to stop drinking only water but to drink wine because of his stomach and his frequent illnesses. I am tee total; does that mean I have to start drinking because Paul told Timothy to?
How does Paul's teaching on how to treat slaves apply to us? Slavery, as they had in Bible times, has been abolished in my country. Should we campaign for it to be reintroduced and for the slaves to be treated badly so that we, as Christians, can treat them with compassion? The whole of Philemon is a plea from Paul on behalf of a slave - it is interesting and gives an interesting insight - but it was written to, and applied to, the owner of that slave; not to us.

We need to understand who the authors of the Bible were writing to and for before we can understand Scripture. Applying it all to ourselves, indiscriminately, is not the way the authors meant their writings to be received and understood.
 
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Strong in Him

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One way today is when we have to deal with revisionism. People that try to say that Mark did not write the book of Mark. We know that these are real letters written by real people. You start to feel like you know them. You want to get to know them better as I am sure we well when we get to Heaven and get a chance to talk to them.

That doesn't answer my question; "what's the reason for Paul's specific instruction to Timothy to visit him and take him his cloak?"
If everything in the Bible applies to us, how does this?
 
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joshua 1 9

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That doesn't answer my question; "what's the reason for Paul's specific instruction to Timothy to visit him and take him his cloak?"
If everything in the Bible applies to us, how does this?
I gave you my answer, so you know this was a real letter written by real people.
 
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Strong in Him

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I gave you my answer, so you know this was a real letter written by real people.

I knew that anyway.

So the people who compiled the NT are asking us to believe in the amazing miracles that Jesus did - healing the sick, raising the dead, claiming to be God, dying for us so that we can be reconciled to God - they're asking us to believe that he was raised from the dead and ascended to the Father, they're asking us to believe that Jesus was both man AND God, and indeed in the Trinity itself; yet they are worried we may feel that the NT writers are not, themselves, real people, so they decide to put some irrelevant personal information in to convince us? Were they expecting non Christians to say, "nah, can't believe all that miraculous stuff - oh wait! Paul was a real person and really needed a cloak to keep himself warm? That settles it; it must all be true?

A bit of straw clutching going on, I think.
 
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Xalith

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Clearly there is no law against milk and honey but science tells us there can be a problem if we are not careful.

I pretty much said that in an earlier post, only applied the same concept to pork (there've been many people who aged 90+ who have eaten pork in moderation), but you pulled the "Science says!" card to back up why Mosaic Law should apply to us today.

Now, you're going "But Science says if we're not careful with Milk and Honey..."

Which is... the same thing I said about Pork. If you trim the fat off a pork steak and you eat it once-in-awhile and not binge on it, or the occasional strip or two of bacon on a cheeseburger once or twice a week, it is not going to poison you or cause you to die of a heart attack or something equally ridiculous.

Wanna know what causes heart attacks? Cholesterol. Wanna know what else is very unhealthy for you, if consumed in large quantities? Eggs. I don't see anything about Eggs in Leviticus, do you?

What about Tobacco? Leviticus (and Jesus!) warned against alcohol, but said nothing about Tobacco, and Tobacco does far, far, FAR more damage to your body than Pork ever would, when eaten in moderation. Nearly every long-time smoker I know of, has horrible breath, yellow teeth, dried out skin, and a general sick look to them. People who chew are even worse.

Or what about Cannabis? Looking it up on wiki, there's records of the Greeks using Cannabis as early as 440 BCE, so surely Jesus would have had something to say about this, as He talked about being a drunkard is a sin?

It seems kinda weird that God tells us "Don't eat Pork or specific kinds of fish" but yet He seems to be A-OK with anything else that doesn't completely destroy your self-awareness and self-control (like alcohol can), no matter how much damage it does to your body.

That's why I'm kinda hesitant to believe that God told the Hebrews not to eat Pork because of dietary reasons. I think it was more a ceremonial thing to set His people apart from the rest of the world.

Well, if that's why, then again what I said earlier in the thread... Christians today already have something that sets us apart from the unbelievers -- His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, sanctifying us to be more loving, kind, meek, longsuffering, etc when so many people in the world are just downright mean and wretched. We are seen as different, not because of how we trim our beards or how we refuse to wear mix-cloth clothing, but because of how we act.

But if you don't wanna eat Pork, then don't eat Pork. Nobody is forcing you to eat Pork. Our family does, because we don't really have the money to buy the super-awesome ingredients, and the person who does the cooking here doesn't know that many fancy dishes, and with the avian flu scare going on, Chicken and Eggs are pretty much off the list, so what does that leave? Beef and Deer all the time gets old after awhile.
 
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joshua 1 9

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yet they are worried we may feel that the NT writers are not, themselves, real people,
Wonderful if you have never had to deal with revisionism and people that deny the Bible. We do live in a time the Bible refers to as the Great Apostasy.
 
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joshua 1 9

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I pretty much said that in an earlier post, only applied the same concept to pork (there've been many people who aged 90+ who have eaten pork in moderation), but you pulled the "Science says!" card to back up why Mosaic Law should apply to us today.

Now, you're going "But Science says if we're not careful with Milk and Honey..."

Which is... the same thing I said about Pork. If you trim the fat off a pork steak and you eat it once-in-awhile and not binge on it, or the occasional strip or two of bacon on a cheeseburger once or twice a week, it is not going to poison you or cause you to die of a heart attack or something equally ridiculous.

Wanna know what causes heart attacks? Cholesterol. Wanna know what else is very unhealthy for you, if consumed in large quantities? Eggs. I don't see anything about Eggs in Leviticus, do you?

What about Tobacco? Leviticus (and Jesus!) warned against alcohol, but said nothing about Tobacco, and Tobacco does far, far, FAR more damage to your body than Pork ever would, when eaten in moderation. Nearly every long-time smoker I know of, has horrible breath, yellow teeth, dried out skin, and a general sick look to them. People who chew are even worse.

Or what about Cannabis? Looking it up on wiki, there's records of the Greeks using Cannabis as early as 440 BCE, so surely Jesus would have had something to say about this, as He talked about being a drunkard is a sin?

It seems kinda weird that God tells us "Don't eat Pork or specific kinds of fish" but yet He seems to be A-OK with anything else that doesn't completely destroy your self-awareness and self-control (like alcohol can), no matter how much damage it does to your body.

That's why I'm kinda hesitant to believe that God told the Hebrews not to eat Pork because of dietary reasons. I think it was more a ceremonial thing to set His people apart from the rest of the world.

Well, if that's why, then again what I said earlier in the thread... Christians today already have something that sets us apart from the unbelievers -- His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, sanctifying us to be more loving, kind, meek, longsuffering, etc when so many people in the world are just downright mean and wretched. We are seen as different, not because of how we trim our beards or how we refuse to wear mix-cloth clothing, but because of how we act.

But if you don't wanna eat Pork, then don't eat Pork. Nobody is forcing you to eat Pork. Our family does, because we don't really have the money to buy the super-awesome ingredients, and the person who does the cooking here doesn't know that many fancy dishes, and with the avian flu scare going on, Chicken and Eggs are pretty much off the list, so what does that leave? Beef and Deer all the time gets old after awhile.
The thing is an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure. Once you have a stent then the rules for you change and they expect you to follow a stricter diet so that you do not have any further complications. Those who follow a low fat diet do fine. Those who continue to eat they way they did when they got into trouble maybe setting themselves up for further medical complications. I hear about one person who was told he needed a heart transplant. He went on the right diet and reversed the condition enough so that he no longer had to get a transplant and he was taken off the list. So perhaps it is up to the individual and their condition as to how strict of a diet they need to follow.
 
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Gregory Thompson

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I attend a real international fellowship. Africans attend from various nations in Africa as well as Asians and Americans. People have some differences for example the Asians tend to like food that would be bitter for most Americans. Their taste buds are a bit different. But what is healthy for one is healthy for all. So the diet laws for the Hebrews are not isolated to people in the Middle East but all people from all over the world would be well advised to eat right for their strength and health. Actually it is more of a problem here in Amerian that we have so much disregard for eating foods that are good for us. I attend a class in eating the right foods and the dietitian that teaches the class pretty much argues with people all day long about this sort of thing. They just do not want to make the choice to eat healthy foods. Even though it will add years to their life. And give them a better quality of life with less medical intervention.

It can be difficult and confusing though. Take milk for example. She recommends low fat yogurt for the calcium esp as we get older they want us to have more calcium. She wants to avoid sugar because of diabetes, and avoid fat because of heart disease, avoid additives because they could cause cancer. There are hundreds of milk products like Cheese, Ice Cream and so on. Yet she narrows it all down to the one she feels is best for everyone whatever their health condition is.

Yet Moses talks about a land flowing with milk and honey. Perhaps in moderation there is no problem with milk and honey. But in some people they can cause health problems. Perhaps we need to be careful not to get to much of a good thing. Clearly there is no law against milk and honey but science tells us there can be a problem if we are not careful.

starving_china_600.jpg

I tend to take from a "Godly teaching" standpoint, if it causes harm it is bad for that person, and if it doesn't cause harm then it is good especially if we thank God for it. Because some people are allergic to certain types of food so giving them the mosaic dietary laws would be sinful and malicious, for example.
 
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Rick Otto

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That doesn't answer my question; "what's the reason for Paul's specific instruction to Timothy to visit him and take him his cloak?"
If everything in the Bible applies to us, how does this?
The reason is because he wanted the cloak.
The application to us; when you need something brought to you, it is a good idea to ask someone coming your way to bring it.
 
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Rick Otto

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I pretty much said that in an earlier post, only applied the same concept to pork (there've been many people who aged 90+ who have eaten pork in moderation), but you pulled the "Science says!" card to back up why Mosaic Law should apply to us today.

Now, you're going "But Science says if we're not careful with Milk and Honey..."

Which is... the same thing I said about Pork. If you trim the fat off a pork steak and you eat it once-in-awhile and not binge on it, or the occasional strip or two of bacon on a cheeseburger once or twice a week, it is not going to poison you or cause you to die of a heart attack or something equally ridiculous.

Wanna know what causes heart attacks? Cholesterol. Wanna know what else is very unhealthy for you, if consumed in large quantities? Eggs. I don't see anything about Eggs in Leviticus, do you?

What about Tobacco? Leviticus (and Jesus!) warned against alcohol, but said nothing about Tobacco, and Tobacco does far, far, FAR more damage to your body than Pork ever would, when eaten in moderation. Nearly every long-time smoker I know of, has horrible breath, yellow teeth, dried out skin, and a general sick look to them. People who chew are even worse.

Or what about Cannabis? Looking it up on wiki, there's records of the Greeks using Cannabis as early as 440 BCE, so surely Jesus would have had something to say about this, as He talked about being a drunkard is a sin?

It seems kinda weird that God tells us "Don't eat Pork or specific kinds of fish" but yet He seems to be A-OK with anything else that doesn't completely destroy your self-awareness and self-control (like alcohol can), no matter how much damage it does to your body.

That's why I'm kinda hesitant to believe that God told the Hebrews not to eat Pork because of dietary reasons. I think it was more a ceremonial thing to set His people apart from the rest of the world.

Well, if that's why, then again what I said earlier in the thread... Christians today already have something that sets us apart from the unbelievers -- His Holy Spirit dwelling within us, sanctifying us to be more loving, kind, meek, longsuffering, etc when so many people in the world are just downright mean and wretched. We are seen as different, not because of how we trim our beards or how we refuse to wear mix-cloth clothing, but because of how we act.

But if you don't wanna eat Pork, then don't eat Pork. Nobody is forcing you to eat Pork. Our family does, because we don't really have the money to buy the super-awesome ingredients, and the person who does the cooking here doesn't know that many fancy dishes, and with the avian flu scare going on, Chicken and Eggs are pretty much off the list, so what does that leave? Beef and Deer all the time gets old after awhile.
Lamb, buffalo, goat, duck, turkey,...
Growth hormones (steroids), antibiotics, herbicides, pesticides and chemical fertilizers scare me more than flu.
 
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