Is it morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7?

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Some folks think that it is morally correct to say that God creates evil according to Isaiah 45:7 in how we understand the word "evil" today.

For when we think of the word "evil" we think of the devil and sin and things that are unholy and impure. However, ...

Did God directly create evil beings?
Did God directly create sin?
Did God directly create unholy or impure things?

For is "evil" (as we understand it today) in context to what the verse is really saying?

Well, lets look at Isaiah 45:7.

Isaiah 45:7 says,
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, some might say that the word "evil" here is meant to be "evil" as we would understand that word today.

However, lets just look at the context of this passage without knowing what the word "evil" really means by leaving it blank. This is what it would look like:

Isaiah 45:7
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create ______: I the LORD do all these things."

Now, lets say you were taking a test and you were asked to fill in the following based on the related information you were given above.

I would see that the opposite of light is darkness. For Isaiah 45:7 sets the standard of letting me know that God forms the light and the darkness. Light is in contrast or opposite to darkness. Okay, now that we have our structure of how this sentence is built, what is the opposite or contrast to Peace? For the next word has to contrast peace because we know Light contrasts darkness. Right? So what contrasts peace?

War, or calamity, or something that is not peaceful or calm. Does war mean something is evil? No. Good guys can fight for good causes to eliminate that which is evil or bad. So the word "evil" here is in context to what is the opposite of peace. Do you get it? This is how one reads the context of something. You look at the surrounding words and let them determine what that word is saying. One does not look at the word at face value and try and force a meaning that does not fit within the sentence. For words can look and sound the same but they can have multiple meanings. Especially during the time of the 1600's when the KJV was being written (Which influenced some later versions in their translations).

I hope what I had written here helps someone today.
And may God bless you all.
 
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Marvin Knox

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I agree with your assessment of the meaning of the verse.

Evil, or calamity as we might wish to call it, is the result of the wrong choices and the resultant actions of those in God's creation who were given the option of choice (i.e. sin). All of the negative consequences that have resulted from those choices are what we call evil or calamity.

Calamity or some other word would undoubtedly be a better choice for us to use in our language when referring to the Hebrew word in the passage.

Speaking for myself - I would never use the word evil (even if it is a possible translation). Exactly because of the wrong implications one could naturally draw from it's use.

Now if the question before us was, did God predestine evil and did He ordain the sins of men and angels? - the answer is an emphatic, yes He did.

That answer is inescapable both from direct scripturs and any logical deductions stemming from considering what is taught therein.
 
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I agree with your assessment of the meaning of the verse.

Evil, or calamity as we might wish to call it, is the result of the wrong choices and the resultant actions of those in God's creation who were given the option of choice (i.e. sin). All of the negative consequences that have resulted from those choices are what we call evil or calamity.

Calamity or some other word would undoubtedly be a better choice for us to use in our language when referring to the Hebrew word in the passage.

Speaking for myself - I would never use the word evil (even if it is a possible translation). Exactly because of the wrong implications one could naturally draw from it's use.

Now if the question before us was, did God predestine evil and did He ordain the sins of men and angels? - the answer is an emphatic, yes He did.

That answer is inescapable both from direct scripturs and any logical deductions stemming from considering what is taught therein.

There is a big difference between ordaining (or commanding) something to take place or predestining something to happen as if there was no other choice possible versus say... allowing something to happen by free will agents and having future foreknowledge of such said free will agents.

If God were to ordain sinful actions it would make him the author of evil and we could no longer call God as good. For the sinful actions of men like Cain, Judas, and others are not compatible with the goodness of God and His loving nature. Yes, the Lord can use evil for His ultimate divine plan of good like in Genesis 50:20, but God did not decree or desire Joseph's brothers to do evil. That would make God immoral (Which is impossible because God is good).
 
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Define Evil

Evil is anything that is really bad. If you ever watched the news or a movie, you would know that people can do evil things that defines that person as being evil.

For example: We know it is evil if somebody were to rape another person and we know it is evil if a person abuses a child. We also know it would be evil if a person removed another person's spine just because they were irritated by their behavior. We also know it would be evil if a person stole something that belong to somebody else, too. For knowing about good and evil helps us distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.

If you were to spell the word "evil" backwards, it says "live." Also, add the letter "d" to the word "evil" and you got the word "devil." We know "evil" is anything that is a part of the devil's kingdom and that it is anything that is sinful. For the Scriptures say that he that sins is of of the devil (1 John 3:8). Scripture also says that everyone who does evil hates the light in John 3:20. This is clearly in reference to sin; And the Scriptures say that sin is trangression of the Law (1 John 3:4). For the Law was not made for a righteous man but it was made for the lawless and disobedient.
 
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For example: Satanists are evil, and serial killers are evil, and child abusers are evil. In fact, anyone who is against the truth of Jesus Christ is technically evil, but they are not on the same level of pure evil as say Satanists, or serial killers, etc. There are different levels of evil that people partake in. However, once a person asks Jesus to forgive them of their sins and accepts them as their Savior for real and desires to turn from their evil and wicked (sinful) ways, then the LORD will transform them spiritually so as to walk in His good ways (With the LORD doing the "good work" in them). For Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil.
 
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rnmomof7

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Evil is anything that is really bad. If you ever watched the news or a movie, you would know that people can do evil things that defines that person as being evil.

For example: We know it is evil if somebody were to rape another person and we know it is evil if a person abuses a child. We also know it would be evil if a person removed another person's spine just because they were irritated by their behavior. We also know it would be evil if a person stole something that belong to somebody else, too. For knowing about good and evil helps us distinguish the good guys from the bad guys.

If you were to spell the word "evil" backwards, it says "live." Also, add the letter "d" to the word "evil" and you got the word "devil." We know "evil" is anything that is a part of the devil's kingdom and that it is anything that is sinful. For the Scriptures say that he that sins is of of the devil (1 John 3:8). Scripture also says that everyone who does evil hates the light in John 3:20. This is clearly in reference to sin; And the Scriptures say that sin is trangression of the Law (1 John 3:4). For the Law was not made for a righteous man but it was made for the lawless and disobedient.

Evil

Rah

The KJV translates Strongs H7451 in the following manner:evil (442x), wickedness (59x), wicked (25x), mischief (21x), hurt (20x), bad (13x), trouble (10x), sore (9x), affliction (6x), ill (5x), adversity (4x), favoured (3x), harm (3x), naught (3x), noisome (2x), grievous (2x), sad (2x), misc (34x).


Young's Literal Translation
Forming light, and preparing darkness, Making peace, and preparing evil, I am Jehovah, doing all these things.'

All of the things you list we would certainly see as sin or evil ....

But to deny God the sovereignty to create events, we would call evil ,makes Him a weak powerless God that must react to other forces.

Instead we need to look at the totality of scripture and see if God "prepares" for evil events to fulfill His purposes..

We would call the mass murder of millions (??) evil.. yet we know the flood was the justice of God on display as was the fire that fell on Sodom ... God ordered Israel to kill enemies, even their women, children and livestock ...

We saw God ordain the selling of Joseph ...certainly an evil event followed by a lie to his father about the "disappearance" of his favorite son.. in order to achieve His purpose to preserve Israel and the line that would "produce" His Son ....As Joseph put it "What you intended for evil, God intended for good"

We saw God order the slaughter of the Egyptian infants ....


The scriptures are full of events ordained by God, that we would call sin or evil


What more evil event could there be than the crucification of Christ ? The betrayal by a disciple, an illegal trial and a crucification of a guiltless man ? ...All ordained by God.

Amos asks
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble? When disaster comes to a city, has not the LORD caused it?(3:6)

When I see a natural disaster , it is always my assumption that the God that created this earth remains in charge of its nature ... and that His purpose for this will be good not evil ...



So much of this question depends on how one defines evil in Gods economy and not mans

We can not stand in judgement of God and His eternal plan... perhaps that baby born from a rape now pleads for unborn life, perhaps the thief will be sent to prison and find Christ..

The truth is we only see the bottom of the tapestry here.. with all the knots and twisted threads ...When we stand in His presents we will say with Joseph that what men intended for evil God intended for good ...
 
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Marvin Knox

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There is a big difference between ordaining (or commanding) something to take place or predestining something to happen as if there was no other choice possible versus say... allowing something to happen by free will agents and having future foreknowledge of such said free will agents.

If God were to ordain sinful actions it would make him the author of evil and we could no longer call God as good. For the sinful actions of men like Cain, Judas, and others are not compatible with the goodness of God and His loving nature. Yes, the Lord can use evil for His ultimate divine plan of good like in Genesis 50:20, but God did not decree or desire Joseph's brothers to do evil. That would make God immoral (Which is impossible because God is good).
God gave man free will when He created him.

Before He created him with that free will He knew exactly what the result was going to be right down to the smallest sin and it's consequence of evil throughout history.

He could have done things in literally an infinite number of ways that would have completely different immediate and later consequences.

He chose to do it the way He did it. He undoubtedly had good reasons for doing exactly what He did according to an overall righteous plan for the age.

In taking that first step - He was in so doing casting the known results "in stone".

He did not think that the things that have happened would happen.

He did not guess at the outcome.

Being omniscient, He knew beyond shadow of doubt all that would happen.

That being the case, there was not the slightest chance that the things that have happened would not have happened.

They were destined to happen from the moment God put His choice of action into play.

That act of giving free will to His creatureswhile knowing full well every consequence that would surely happen was the initial act of predestination.

What He knew for the future also included what He Himself planned to do throughout history via His omnipresence. Those acts of the Word of God far are too numerous and diverse to even discuss here - as John tells us at the end of his gospel.

When He sent forth His Word to carry these things to completion it was by way of what we usually call the "decree" of God. His ongoing actions in history to bring things to pass is what we usually call "ordaining" (ordering) them to happen.

Any evil that takes place - takes place through the free choices of His creatures and the consequences of those choices.

God is not the "author" of sin as the scripture tells us.

But He did predestine and ordain all that happens including sin and evil.

The reason that God's decrees for these things to happen is not evil is because He has done it all for good. We have numerous examples in scripture to illustrate his truth.

God's actions are always righteous even when they are brought to fruition through evil acts of others.

And I agree with the poster who pointed out the use of the word "moral" as being an odd choice of words. God's activities are moral by definition - even if we see through the glass rather darkly right now.

Sorry to be long winded. I know these things are not spiritual rocket surgery. They are rather basic really. I just get a little carried away sometimes even concerning the obvious.
 
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The word in question from Isa. 45:7 often translated as "evil" (רַע) is common in the OT , with something over half the uses being synonymous with "calamity" (such as earthquakes, a death in the family and so on) and something under half the uses meaning moral evil or sin. Isaiah at his commissioning did not seem to object to the angel's declaration that the LORD is "holy, holy, holy" and the Scriptures do seem fairly clear in saying God is not the author (or "approv-er") of sin, though His ordination of all things (cf. e.g., Rom. 11:36 and Eph. 1:11) involves a causality we do not fully understand. Also ubiquitous in Scripture is holding humans accountable for sin. With such a theological framework one could so far as I know to date still argue for either use of the word "evil" in Isa. 45:7.

Related verses to consider on one side (other than as at least alluded to in above posts) each in its individual context include Ps. 105:25 "He [the LORD] turned their [the Egyptians's] hearts to hate His people, Zech. 8:10 " ... for I [the LORD] set every man against his neighbor," Josh. 11:20 "For it was the LORD's doing to harden their [Canaanite] hearts that they should come against Israel in battle, in order that they should be devoted to destruction and should receive no mercy but be destroyed just as the LORD commanded Moses," 2 Samuel 12:11 "... I will raise up evil against you [David] out of your own house. And I will take your wives before your eyes and give them to your neighbor ... ," and 2 Chronicles 15:6 "Nation was crushed by nation and city by city, for God troubled them with every sort of distress." Again divine causality regarding human sinning does not imply divine sin (which is impossible).

Various judgments in Scripture are claimed as of divine origin too (on the "evil = calamity" side), but for the present I will assume these as they are common enough (not to mention overlap with the above); in Isa. 45:7, "evil = calamity" is probably to be preferred. Of Job (declared upright by God), as a last illustration nonetheless, note that when his trials were over his family "showed him sympathy and comforted him for all the evil the LORD had brought upon him" (42:11).
 
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Is it morally correct? That's an odd turn of phrase. Can mortals in their limited consciousness fashion a polemic arguing what God is capable of?

John 1:3

Morals are not in conflict with God. God is not immoral. God is Holy and righteous and perfect in everything that He does. God is love. God is good. In fact, morals come from the Bible (As well as some of them being built into man's conscience, too).
 
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He did not guess at the outcome.

There is a difference between knowing something is going to happen by free will agents that He created versus say decreeing and or causing such evil to take place because you made it happen. God did not make evil to happen. That would make God immoral and that is not possible.

Being omniscient, He knew beyond shadow of doubt all that would happen.

That being the case, there was not the slightest chance that the things that have happened would not have happened.

Do you know who the Watchers are in the Marvel Comics Universe? They are fictional alien beings that merely observe and they do not interfere.

http://marvel.com/universe/Watchers

Granted, God is real and God is not anything like them, but the point I am getting at is that God did not force a situation or outcome that He desired to take place. God made a test for Adam and Eve. But God did not interfere by the giving of such a test, though. For God did not force Adam and Eve to eat of the wrong tree and God did not prevent them from eating from it, either. Adam and Eve had the free will choice to do either the right thing or the wrong thing.

They were destined to happen from the moment God put His choice of action into play.

That act of giving free will to His creatures while knowing full well every consequence that would surely happen was the initial act of predestination.

Again, there is a difference between fate and destiny (Where no other outcome or choice was never possible) versus say God knowing what Adam and Eve were going to do once He set the ball of creation into motion. God did not want Adam and Eve to sin. It was not God's will that they sinned. God would have preferred that they did not sin, but He simply was aware that they would sin whereby they would need a Savior to save them and the rest of their offspring.

When He sent forth His Word to carry these things to completion it was by way of what we usually call the "decree" of God. His ongoing actions in history to bring things to pass is what we usually call "ordaining" (ordering) them to happen.

God predicting or knowing about the future (By telling us about it) does not equate with God desiring for those certain things to come to pass. God's ultimate goal is to have a relationship with free will beings who chose Him willingly whereby He will spend all eternity with them. God is going to bring an end to all evil and sin and darkness in time. It will not last forever. This lets us know that the evil things were only temporary things created only by the choice of the free will agents that He formed. God did not desire that they sinned. If God in any way declared that He was going to bring forth evil in some way (As if that was the only outcome), then God would be unrighteous. But like I said before, that is not possible because God is good and God is love.

God is not the "author" of sin as the scripture tells us.

But He did predestine and ordain all that happens including sin and evil.

This statement is a contradiction. On one hand you are saying God did not create evil and yet the other hand you are saying He set the ball in motion to let evil take place as if there was no other choice (Thereby making Him the author of evil).

God's actions are always righteous even when they are brought to fruition through evil acts of others.

Let's understand something here. The evil that Joseph's brothers did upon Joseph was not somehow good all of a sudden just because God decided to use their evil for a greater purpose of good. The evil that his brothers did was still wrong and sinful and God did not in any way condone or approve of their actions. God is merely able to take a bad situation and simply turn it around for His greater glory like with Christ (Who was 100% innocent) dying upon the cross.
 
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^j^RaspberryAngel

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The question isn't about God's morality. It is asking if God created evil.

Morals are not in conflict with God. God is not immoral. God is Holy and righteous and perfect in everything that He does. God is love. God is good. In fact, morals come from the Bible (As well as some of them being built into man's conscience, too).
 
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The question isn't about God's morality. It is asking if God created evil.

If God created evil then it is a moral issue that would speak of His character then. For if I created a robot to kill people, then I would be guilty for creating a robot that was programmed to do bad. I would then be held responsible for such a thing. God did not create beings whose sole purpose was to do evil and evil alone. God created beings who had a free will choice to do either good or bad and THEY would be held accountable to HIM for any good or bad that they do. Therein lies the difference.
 
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Remember that scripture that tells us God's thoughts are not as ours and vice versa?

What you're attempting to argue here is your perspective of what evil is and what God is.

If God created evil then it is a moral issue that would speak of His character then. For if I created a robot to kill people, then I would be guilty for creating a robot that was programmed to do bad. I would then be held responsible for such a thing. God did not create beings whose sole purpose was to do evil and evil alone. God created beings who had a free will choice to do either good or bad and THEY would be held accountable to HIM for any good or bad that they do. Therein lies the difference.
 
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Remember that scripture that tells us God's thoughts are not as ours and vice versa?

What you're attempting to argue here is your perspective of what evil is and what God is.

So you do not think it is evil if one makes another to stumble into evil? How exactly does that work if God is supposed to be good, righteous, and loving? How can someone create something that is specifically set out for purpose of evil not be evil themselves?

The LORD our God is logical, orderly, and good. He does not directly create evil. To suggest otherwise is to fall into the dangerous territory of Isaiah 5:20.
 
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So you do not think it is evil if one makes another to stumble into evil? How exactly does that work if God is supposed to be good, righteous, and loving? How can someone create something that is specifically set out for purpose of evil not be evil themselves?

The LORD our God is logical, orderly, and good. He does not directly create evil. To suggest otherwise is to fall into the dangerous territory of Isaiah 5:20.
God is equipoise.
 
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God is equipoise.

God is not a balance or scale when it comes to morals or righteousness (If that is what you are implying). The Scriptures say God is love and God is good. The Scriptures also say that there is no darkness in God, either. This means God can in no way partake of anything sinful or unrighteous. God is Holy, pure, and just in everything He does; And God's good ways and Judgments are knowable and teachable to others. They are not a mystery. God's good ways are clear to see in the Bible.
 
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This statement is a contradiction. On one hand you are saying God did not create evil and yet the other hand you are saying He set the ball in motion to let evil take place as if there was no other choice (Thereby making Him the author of evil).

The "this statement" of Marvin Knox's to which your above quote is a response reads, "God is not the "author" of sin as the scripture tells us. But He did predestine and ordain all that happens including sin and evil."

Without necessarily implying I agree or disagree with the assorted related discussions between the two of you to the time of this writing and more particularly rejecting your characterization of Knox's two statements as fairly representing my own argument (or I think Knox's, but he had best speak for himself), I suggest perusing my post # 11 above, which would seem to speak to the above Knox quote and your own here--I mean especially the Scriptures I cite in my post, each in their respective contexts.

Regarding some possible definitions of terms like "predestine" or "ordain," the Scriptures themselves (see my illustrations) seem to imply Knox's two statements are not necessarily a contradiction, again in part I think because divine causality is not well understood in many cases. But this point may best be made by relying on various relevant Scripture texts in tension and the belief that a harmonization between them is possible rather than in coming to a definition of terms like "predestine" and "ordain" that fully resolve--or perhaps seem to--the relevant issues in tension. While the model that best explains all the data may be preferred, it is better to accept all the data despite unresolved tensions than come to an explanatory model which down-plays or distorts the difficult. It is too easy to put God in a box of our own making even if God has truly revealed Himself to us in part.
 
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