White lives matter too......

Michael

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http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...ll-about-black-black-crime-heather-mac-donald

A “white” homicide victim is over twice as likely to be killed by a black than a black homicide victim is to be killed by a “white.” Sixteen percent of “white” victims in homicide incidents involving a single victim and single offender were killed by blacks, compared with only 7 percent of black victims who are killed by “whites.” Given the fact that blacks are less than 13 percent of the national population, their homicide rate against whites and Hispanics combined is vastly disproportionate to their share of the population. There were 431 black killers of “whites,” compared to 193 “white” killers of blacks.

Am I the only one that finds the whole "Black lives matter" movement to be a tad hypocritical, and somewhat misdirected? According to the statistics, the sad fact is that blacks kill whites far more often than the reverse is true.

Furthermore, there seems to be a danger in oversimplifying the whole police brutality problem in this country, to a racial problem when it seems instead to be related to a militarization of our police force, not simply a problem with racial inequality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-police-his-family-asks-where-is-the-outrage/

Now don't get me wrong, I realize that blacks are disproportionately affected by police brutality, but there's also a problem with the fact that we've spend a huge amount of money and effort militarizing our police departments over the past couple of decades, and blacks aren't the only one's that are being affected by that policy.
 

Maynard Keenan

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When a criminal homicide occurs, it is expected that the perpetrator will be sought, arrested if found, and convicted if sufficient evidence exists. When a police officer kills someone, it is expected that he or she will be given the benefit of the doubt, that the police department will support their officer, and that even where evidence exists it will be difficult to obtain an indictment and a conviction. This isn't some matter of raw numbers. We don't NEED to protest in support of justice for the victims of criminal homicide - we already expect justice. We do need to protest in support of justice for victims of police brutality - we don't currently expect justice for them.

As for the "black lives matter," vs a race-neutral police brutality issue, it's both. Police brutality is a problem. It's a problem that can affect anyone but one that affects the poor more than the wealthy, and that at the same social stratus affects minorities more than white people. It's common to see a black victim of police violence tried in the court of public opinion and labeled a dangerous thug, moreso than with white victims (at least this is perception, both of BLM activists and my own perception). Yes, we need to address police procedures and oversight in the abstract, but we also have ongoing disparities in how people of different races experience life in America, and that needs to be addressed as well.
 
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Belk

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http://www.nationalreview.com/corne...ll-about-black-black-crime-heather-mac-donald



Am I the only one that finds the whole "Black lives matter" movement to be a tad hypocritical, and somewhat misdirected?
According to the statistics, the sad fact is that blacks kill whites far more often than the reverse is true.

Furthermore, there seems to be a danger in oversimplifying the whole police brutality problem in this country, to a racial problem when it seems instead to be related to a militarization of our police force, not simply a problem with racial inequality.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...-police-his-family-asks-where-is-the-outrage/

Now don't get me wrong, I realize that blacks are disproportionately affected by police brutality, but there's also a problem with the fact that we've spend a huge amount of money and effort militarizing our police departments over the past couple of decades, and blacks aren't the only one's that are being affected by that policy.


No, there seem to be quite a number of people who apparently have a hard time allowing blacks to have a voice when it comes to the fact that they are killed by police in wildly disproportionate numbers. Unlike the others however you seem to realize what the movement is about so one wonders why you quote the national review article that attempts to make the argument about who kills who more?
 
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Maynard Keenan

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Michael

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No, there seem to be quite a number of people who apparently have a hard time allowing blacks to have a voice when it comes to the fact that they are killed by police in wildly disproportionate numbers. Unlike the others however you seem to realize what the movement is about so one wonders why you quote the national review article that attempts to make the argument about who kills who more?

Considering the fact that blacks are statistically involved in more crime goes a long way toward explaining why they are likely to have a disproportionate problem with the police too. It's not like unarmed white kids aren't also killed by police. When however you look at the raw numbers of murders, a white victim is *twice* a likely to be killed by a black assailant than the other way around. What about blacks gives them the right to ignore those statistics? Don't all lives matter, or just black lives?

The real problem with their racist slogan is that it ignores the real problem, namely police brutality, and tries to turn it into a racist cause. Meanwhile black racists like Louis Farrkhan are running around calling for the killing of whites and we do absolutely nothing about it. That makes no sense at all, and it's a complete turn off to the white community that otherwise might have some sympathy for the problem of police brutality and it's disproportionate effect on the black community.
 
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dgiharris

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Who's house is really on fire?

It should come as no surprise that the total stats on violence show more violence committed against whites by blacks than against blacks by whites for a few very simple reasons.

Blacks make up a much higher percentage of poor in this country. Blacks are also the minority while whites are economically better off and comprise the majority. So yes, blacks are going to commit more crimes against whites do to the simple math of being the minority poor surrounded by the majority affluent.

If you really want to talk race, a better to compare race vs crimes would be to normalize everything based on economics. Look at the income and education level of the criminal and I would "guess" that whites and blacks would be close to equal.

My point being that crimes of violence are more about economics than about race.

HOWEVER

Police brutality and police abuse disproportionately effect blacks more than whites specifically because of race. The statistics and math bear this out. Blacks with the same backgrounds and same criminal records as whites are sentenced disproportionately longer than whites. Whites who commit crimes against blacks receive lighter sentences. If you take the total justice system into account from start to finish, Whites enjoy a lot more privilege #crimingwhilewhite than blacks.

Obviously all lives matter, but please don't pretend that blacks aren't disproportionately treated unfairly by the system. And not just the system, the media and all things crime related.


There are many reasons for this, institutional and systemic racism is not something you can overturn with flowery "pick yourself up by your bootstrap" speeches or the passing of affirmative action programs. The Civil Rights movement was in the 60s and it took DECADES for that to permeate through the system. Now, things are a helluva better, absolutely, but you can't undo the entire socio-political-economic framework of the country in a few decades. Sure, you can generate some great poster boys for upwards social mobility... ooppss I'm starting to rant so I better stop.

I will end my post by saying, since Blacks are treated the worse by the system, it makes sense to focus on their treatment.

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Ghandi
 
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Belk

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Considering the fact that blacks are statistically involved in more crime goes a long way toward explaining why they are likely to have a disproportionate problem with the police too. It's not like unarmed white kids aren't also killed by police.

Feel free to substantiate said "fact". It has been shown that whites are more likely to deal drugs then blacks yet they are arrested at twice the rate.

When however you look at the raw numbers of murders, a white victim is *twice* a likely to be killed by a black assailant than the other way around. What about blacks gives them the right to ignore those statistics? Don't all lives matter, or just black lives?

What does that have to do with the fact that blacks are 3 times more likely to die from legal intervention than whites?

The real problem with their racist slogan is that it ignores the real problem, namely police brutality, and tries to turn it into a racist cause. Meanwhile black racists like Louis Farrkhan are running around calling for the killing of whites and we do absolutely nothing about it. That makes no sense at all, and it's a complete turn off to the white community that otherwise might have some sympathy for the problem of police brutality and it's disproportionate effect on the black community.

No, the real problem is those who demand that someone who is trying to draw attention to an issue needs to change their message for some unknown reason. Why should the blacks not call attention to this? It might be a turn off for you but you do not speak for "the white community".
 
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Michael

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It should come as no surprise that the total stats on violence show more violence committed against whites by blacks than against blacks by whites for a few very simple reasons.

Blacks make up a much higher percentage of poor in this country.

I'm sorry, but I just don't buy that argument as an *excuse* for murder, rape, and violent crime in general. Hispanics are also lower on the socioeconomic ladder, but you don't see them disproportionately committing murder and violent crime.

IMO that's more of an *excuse* to justify unacceptable actions. I'm sure that there's truth in your statement mind you, it's just not a valid excuse for violence IMO. Martin Luther King demonstrated that non violence is the best way to change a corrupt system.

Police brutality and police abuse disproportionately effect blacks more than whites specifically because of race. The statistics and math bear this out.

I'll definitely give you the sentencing argument. You're absolutely right about that issue, but it's a problem within the court system, not a problem with police. On the other hand, let's take a cold hard look at the statistics as it relates to police brutality and race:

http://blogs.channel4.com/factcheck/factcheck-black-americans-killed-police/19423

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white. Now let's look at the number of deaths at the hands of the police in terms of the statistics. Mind you that there's a problem here with comparing different year ranges, but this is a pretty good graph and it's more recent, so I'll use it to make my point:

25_fc_felix.jpg


If 52 percent of the homicides in the US are committed by black offenders, it's statistically likely that 52 percent of all police homicides are likely to be committed against black offenders because that's who the police are hired to arrest on a statistical basis. Instead we see a 32 percent arrest/homicide ratio against blacks, *far less than* 52 percent, in fact 20+ percent less. Meanwhile the white arrest/homicide ratio by police is only 3-4 percent less than the murder/race ratio. If anyone is getting a raw deal at the hands of the police, it's the Hispanic population, not blacks and not whites.

Blacks are also disproportionately represented among cop killers. In 2013 for instance, blacks made up 42 percent of all cop killers whose race was known. The arrest/homicide ratio of blacks is actually *less* than than the (police homicide)/race ratio, not just the homicide/race ratio. All things considered you'd have a really hard time statistically complaining about the numbers when you actually factor in the homicide rates of various races.

I will end my post by saying, since Blacks are treated the worse by the system, it makes sense to focus on their treatment.

"A nation's greatness is measured by how it treats its weakest members." ~ Mahatma Ghandi

I absolutely, positively agree with you in terms of the *court system* itself. In other words, I think you're right on the money with respect to the courts and the need to *change the system* as it relates to sentencing and the disproportional length of incarceration. That is a real problem. No doubt about it.

I'm not as convinced however that police brutality is actually disproportional when you factor in the disproportional rates of violent crime that is perpetrated by blacks and the disproportionate danger posed by black offender on the police departments. In terms of homicides by police, it's really a *police brutality* issue rather than a race issue IMO, and the statistics bear that out.
 
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Michael

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Feel free to substantiate said "fact". It has been shown that whites are more likely to deal drugs then blacks yet they are arrested at twice the rate.

I'm actually more concerned about violent crime, and the insinuation that police are racists with respect to who they shoot and who they don't shoot.

According to the Bureau of Justice Statistics, black offenders committed 52 per cent of homicides recorded in the data between 1980 and 2008. Only 45 per cent of the offenders were white. Blacks also made up 42 percent of all cop killers whose race was known. If blacks are disproportionately committing violent crime, and disproportionately committing violent crimes against the police, it should be no surprise that they are also disproportionately shot by the police.

What does that have to do with the fact that blacks are 3 times more likely to die from legal intervention than whites?

Now you're talking about a *court system* problem, not a problem with police. I'd grant you that there's a systemic problem within the larger court system. No doubt about it. That isn't however the same as claiming that police are the problem or claiming that police are racists.

No, the real problem is those who demand that someone who is trying to draw attention to an issue needs to change their message for some unknown reason. Why should the blacks not call attention to this? It might be a turn off for you but you do not speak for "the white community".

Er, if a few vocal black leaders can 'speak for the black community', why can't I speak for the white community again? Who doesn't believe that white lives matter too?

A simple Google search will demonstrate that I'm not alone in my frustration over this issue. Even Trump is talking about it.
 
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SoldierOfTheKing

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Blacks make up a much higher percentage of poor in this country. Blacks are also the minority while whites are economically better off and comprise the majority. So yes, blacks are going to commit more crimes against whites do to the simple math of being the minority poor surrounded by the majority affluent.

There is no evidence that poverty in itself causes crime.

If you really want to talk race, a better to compare race vs crimes would be to normalize everything based on economics. Look at the income and education level of the criminal and I would "guess" that whites and blacks would be close to equal.

Just a guess though. Considering that many crimes don't even have an economic motivation, it's not even an educaded guess.

My point being that crimes of violence are more about economics than about race.

Evidence?
 
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Belk

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There is no evidence that poverty in itself causes crime.



Just a guess though. Considering that many crimes don't even have an economic motivation, it's not even an educaded guess.



Evidence?

Except for that high level of correlation. Most would consider that evidence.
 
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Belk

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Correlation does not imply causation.

That fallacy is called cum hoc ergo propter hoc.


"Post hoc ergo propter hoc" is how I have always heard it.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Post_hoc_ergo_propter_hoc

However if you think that things being correlated with each other is not evidence then one questions your understanding of causality. That thunder always follows lightning is evidence that the two are linked. I made no claim that poverty must cause crime so your saying it is a fallacy would be incorrect in this case.
 
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