Understanding salvation

oi_antz

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As a believer many years ago, I did step out in faith and landed flat on my nose (figuratively). It is something that has already happened, it was a very painful experience and I do not want it to happen again. That I why I am not going to be able to trust God again until I know that there is a real call. And when I have reasonable certainty that this time, God will respond.
Are you comfortable to describe this a bit more? I do not want to jump to conclusions, but I reckon I could be able to spot a mistake that maybe you had not seen.
Living water is needed before the seed can germinate. It means that perhaps the best I can do to nurture the possibility of growth is to put myself in a position where God can reach me, by interacting with believers, learning what I can, and trying to find out more about why I have never been aware of God or anything spiritual.
While it is good to maximise your exposure to His instruction, I see here plainly in doing so it is for your own sake. I think one thing to take from our discussion in this regard, as was raised as a concern very early, we cannot grow faith of our own accord, but it is a cooperative exercise. With God being the vinedresser, it is Him who has the vision of how to produce fruit in us, but we must allow Him to do it, by moving the rocks, cutting the thorns and so forth. The better approach for you would be rather than playing chicken with Him (so to speak), investigate whether you are the sort of person He wants you to be (since you will be carrying His name), and if not, then consider whether you want to be.
 
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losthope

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I began this thread with a specific purpose. From my own experience, and from conversations with many believers, I have some ideas about what it means to find real salvation. If I am right, it implies that many people will think they have found salvation and call themselves born again Christians, when in fact they are unwittingly deceiving themselves. That is why I used the example of the parable of the sower. I wanted to find out if my understanding of salvation was shared by Christians. So far, I have found several contributors to this thread who have confirmed my ideas, and indeed helped me to develop my ideas. Others have not agreed, of course. But enough have agreed to encourage me.

I will probably ask more questions in this forum in the future as my ideas develop.

Some contributors have tried to evangelise me. While I appreciate this, I would prefer not to share too many personal details in public in this thread. Instead I am very happy to receive and to send “conversation” messages with you.

Thank you
 
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oi_antz

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I began this thread with a specific purpose. From my own experience, and from conversations with many believers, I have some ideas about what it means to find real salvation. If I am right, it implies that many people will think they have found salvation and call themselves born again Christians, when in fact they are unwittingly deceiving themselves. That is why I used the example of the parable of the sower.
That sounds more like the ones who take a broad road, since it suggests that a seed did not grow at all.
 
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Psalm3704

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I began this thread with a specific purpose. From my own experience, and from conversations with many believers, I have some ideas about what it means to find real salvation. If I am right, it implies that many people will think they have found salvation and call themselves born again Christians, when in fact they are unwittingly deceiving themselves. That is why I used the example of the parable of the sower. I wanted to find out if my understanding of salvation was shared by Christians. So far, I have found several contributors to this thread who have confirmed my ideas, and indeed helped me to develop my ideas. Others have not agreed, of course. But enough have agreed to encourage me.

Oh man, you just nailed it on the head. So many Christians in the church are duped by the devil. They're not saved and not born again. If fact, most Christians don't truly understand when one is born again. Many think it's in Romans 10:9 when in fact this is just the first step and the farthest from being born again. One is not born again until after a complete transformation and renewal of the mind and heart, and this process can takes years to decades before a Christian is truly spiritual minded, being completely done away with the flesh.

Romans 12:1-2
1 So then, my friends, because of God's great mercy to us I appeal to you: Offer yourselves as a living sacrifice to God, dedicated to his service and pleasing to him. This is the true worship that you should offer. 2 Do not conform yourselves to the standards of this world, but let God transform you inwardly by a complete change of your mind. Then you will be able to know the will of God—what is good and is pleasing to him and is perfect.

Here's where Jesus said many will not be saved. And these are Christian are trying to enter the narrow path. These are the ones doing it wrong as mentioned in the parable of the sower and the parable of building on a solid foundation.

Luke 13:23-27 NKJV
23 Then one said to Him, “Lord, are there few who are saved?”

And He said to them, 24 “Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able. 25 When once the Master of the house has risen up and shut the door, and you begin to stand outside and knock at the door, saying, ‘Lord, Lord, open for us,’ and He will answer and say to you, ‘I do not know you, where you are from,’ 26 then you will begin to say, ‘We ate and drank in Your presence, and You taught in our streets.’ 27 But He will say, ‘I tell you I do not know you, where you are from. Depart from Me, all you workers of iniquity.’


 
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Psalm3704

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To Psalm3704

This involves Christ coming to be with me and leading me to God. I would love this to happen, but for me it has never happened. I was a believer but not in a relationship with God. No wonder I struggled with my faith. The question is, why did Christ not come to me? For many years I have been seeking the answer to that question, because until I know why Christ did not come back then, I cannot put it right and have Christ come to be with me.

If you wanna follow this footstep, this is what I would do if I was in your shoes.

Find a quiet place and say the sinner's prayer but this time cry out for Him, yell if you have to. Tell Him you want this relationship. Repent and be humble talking to Him.

Then from here on out, just focus solely on doing things to please Him. Persistently keep doing it without expectation to receive anything back. Here's the big key to success. Just as in every relationship, you have to know what the other person desires most to really make the relationship blossom. Christ gave us a new commandment: love others as I've loved you. This is what make Him happy. This is THE key. Go out and perform acts of kindness and good deeds to others regularly.

John 13:34
A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another: just as I have loved you, you also are to love one another.​

How do you show love to others? By filling a need. Give money to the poor. Buy food for the hungry. Comfort the lonely. Give shelter to the homeless. Everyone needs the gospel, so always evangelise. This is the good fruit He spoke of: loving others.

Christ even showed us how He'll judge everyone in Matthew 25.

Matthew 25:34-40 NKJV
34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’​

God and Christ will love you if you start loving others. Your relationship will go up. Christ will also reveal the truth to you, and best of all, you'll have eternal life (real life, the good life) right now.

John 14:21 Whoever has my commandments and keeps them loves me. Whoever loves me will be loved by my Father, and I will love them and reveal myself to them.”

Luke 10:25-37 NKJV
25 And behold, a certain lawyer stood up and tested Him, saying, “Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?”
26 He said to him, “What is written in the law? What is your reading of it?
27 So he answered and said, “ ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, with all your strength, and with all your mind,’ and‘your neighbor as yourself.’”
28 And He said to him, “You have answered rightly; do this and you will live.”
29 But he, wanting to justify himself, said to Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”
30 Then Jesus answered and said: “A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, who stripped him of his clothing, wounded him,and departed, leaving him half dead. 31 Now by chance a certain priest came down that road. And when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.32 Likewise a Levite, when he arrived at the place, came and looked, and passed by on the other side. 33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was. And when he saw him, he had compassion. 34 So he went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine; and he set him on his own animal, brought him to an inn, and took care of him. 35 On the next day, when he departed, he took out two denarii, gave them to the innkeeper, and said to him, ‘Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I come again, I will repay you.’ 36 So which of these three do you think was neighbor to him who fell among the thieves?”

37 And he said, “He who showed mercy on him.” Then Jesus said to him, “Go and do likewise.”

The deeds in John 3:21 is about helping others. Also noticed in verse 16 and 17 implies a condition? The condition is whoever follows His commandment by loving others will be saved a mentioned in verse 21.

John 3:16-21 NKJV
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.

18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

John 15:1-17 pretty much covers it all. This might be the best scripture in the entire bible.

John 15:1-17 NKJV
15 “I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser. 2 Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit He prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, neither can you, unless you abide in Me.

5 “I am the vine, you are the branches. He who abides in Me, and I in him, bears much fruit; for without Me you can do nothing. 6 If anyone does not abide in Me, he is cast out as a branch and is withered; and they gather them and throw them into the fire, and they are burned. 7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you. 8 By this My Father is glorified, that you bear much fruit; so you will be My disciples.

9 “As the Father loved Me, I also have loved you; abide in My love. 10 If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love, just as I have kept My Father’s commandments and abide in His love.

11 “These things I have spoken to you, that My joy may remain in you, and that your joy may be full. 12 This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you. 13 Greater love has no one than this, than to lay down one’s life for his friends. 14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.15 No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing; but I have called you friends, for all things that I heard from My Father I have made known to you. 16 You did not choose Me, but I chose you and appointed you that you should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should remain, that whatever you ask the Father in My name He may give you. 17 These things I command you, that you love one another.

Remember He said "I am the way, the truth and the life?" Here's the truth part He'll reveal to all He consider as His disciple.

John 8:31-32
31 Then Jesus said to those Jews who believed Him, “If you abide in My word, you are My disciples indeed. 32 And you shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free.”

John 16:13
When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all truth. He will not speak on his own but will tell you what he has heard. He will tell you about the future.
Pretty cool deal Jesus is offering us just by loving others huh?
 
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losthope

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Psalm3704 wrote this, between the quotations from the Bible:
If you wanna follow this footstep, this is what I would do if I was in your shoes.

Find a quiet place and say the sinner's prayer but this time cry out for Him, yell if you have to. Tell Him you want this relationship. Repent and be humble talking to Him.


This is something that I have done, especially during the time when I was struggling with my faith many years ago because God was not responding to me. It did not help and I still did not have any response from God. Perhaps this has worked for some people. Unfortunately not for me.

Then from here on out, just focus solely on doing things to please Him. Persistently keep doing it without expectation to receive anything back. Here's the big key to success. Just as in every relationship, you have to know what the other person desires most to really make the relationship blossom. Christ gave us a new commandment: love others as I've loved you. This is what make Him happy. This is THE key. Go out and perform acts of kindness and good deeds to others regularly.

How do you show love to others? By filling a need. Give money to the poor. Buy food for the hungry. Comfort the lonely. Give shelter to the homeless. Everyone needs the gospel, so always evangelise. This is the good fruit He spoke of: loving others.

God and Christ will love you if you start loving others. Your relationship will go up. Christ will also reveal the truth to you, and best of all, you'll have eternal life (real life, the good life) right now.


Pretty cool deal Jesus is offering us just by loving others huh?

I don’t think you are telling me that salvation is gained through a person’s works, but it seems very close to that. You are concentrating on what people should do after they find God, and suggesting that I should do this before finding God. This seems to me to be doing things the wrong way round. I do not think that I could come close to God by acting as if I was saved, or even pretending that I am saved. Indeed, I would regard that as living a lie. Being sinful. And I really do not think that being sinful is the way to find God. Sorry.

Jesus agreed that the two most important commandments were to love the Lord your God and to love your neighbour as yourself. I may be able to love my neighbour, but I cannot love God when I do not know God.

In case anyone else is tempted to quote lots of passages from the Bible, I will first quote two verses, using the same translation.

2 Timothy 3:16-17 NKJV
16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Unfortunately I am not a man of God. Scripture is not going to help me in the same way.
 
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losthope

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Troy Rambo wrote:
Why not just take a chance and get to know God? What do you have to lose? Take baby steps if you have to.

If only … I would love to get to know God. But how? I could read the Bible and go to church regularly and talk to Christians and try to live a good life. That might well help me to know about God. But would it help me to know God, to have a personal relationship? There is a huge difference.

If I knew how to get to know God I would take a chance as you suggest. But I do not know how to get to know God. Other people have told me how they get to know God, and I have tried all of these things, where it is appropriate. Without success. That is partly why I am posting on Christian Forums, trying to find someone with a word of knowledge from the Holy Spirit who can show me the way to God.

What do I have to lose if it goes wrong? I know the answer to that question, from my own experience. I would lose my hope for the future, my purpose in life, my fellowship in the church, most of my Christian friends, my social support system, my marriage and my sanity. It is because of that terrible experience that I dare not risk faith again without some kind of response from God to assure me that this time I really do know God.
 
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Troy Rambo

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<-----See this picture? Sometimes I think those movies were made just for me. When I start thinking this way I feel like I should just check myself into a hospital psyche ward. There are many other reasons I feel like I should do so. So I know what you mean by losing your sanity. But I cant help but believe God is working in our lives. I dont know how, but He does. Those minor coincidences are usually God.

How in the world would you lose your hope for the future and purpose in life by having a relationship with God. Its quite the opposite.
 
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losthope

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Troy Rambo wrote:
How in the world would you lose your hope for the future and purpose in life by having a relationship with God. Its quite the opposite.
I think you must have misunderstood. The problem was that I did not manage to have a relationship with God. It was when I realised that the relationship was not going to happen that I lost hope etc.
 
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Troy Rambo

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Your relationship with the Lord is the best part. He takes away the loneliness and insecurities and gives you purpose. Why are you having trouble with the easiest and best part?

Like I said before, I feel like calling the men in white coats when I start down this train of thought, but maybe its something you need to hear just like its been something I needed to hear. You need to seek the Lord. Im not just talking about reading the Bible and going to church. Im talking about keeping an eye and ear out for His guidance and blessings everywhere in life.

For instance, I turned my radio on to a Christian station and as soon as I turned it on, the dj said "He knows exactly when you are going to turn on your radio."

Now lets examine this situation. Sure I could blow this off as blind coincidence. But what if it was God doing this just to increase my faith?

Furthermore, you should pay a lot of attention to social cues! Social cues are signals people send through body language and expressions. This is something I had trouble with my whole life until now.

Im not an expert at this. Ive tried this "train of thought" before and it landed me in the hospital psyche ward more than once and was diagnosed with schizophrenia. But Im sure that it was all just a test to see if I would run right back to church or not as soon as they released me.

I dont have a lot of experience or knowledge with this kind of thinking, but why dont you try being obedient to His word, seek a relationship with Him, and see where it can you lead you. Thats what Im doing and so far Im feeling very positive Im on the right track.
 
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losthope

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Troy Rambo wrote:
Your relationship with the Lord is the best part. He takes away the loneliness and insecurities and gives you purpose. Why are you having trouble with the easiest and best part?

I was hoping that someone responding to this thread might tell me the answer to that question. And in fact some responses have helped me in my understanding.

It takes two to have a relationship. I reached out to God. As far as I am aware, God did not respond. That may not be what the Bible and the preachers tell you, but that is what happened – or rather what did not happen. For you it may have been the easiest part. For me it seems to have been impossible.

Of course over the years I have looked for signs of God acting in my life. But as far as I am aware God has not responded in any way.

I know that many Christians have trouble accepting that what I am saying is true, but there it is. I wanted a relationship. I prayed for a relationship. But, no relationship.
 
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Troy Rambo

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Troy Rambo wrote:
Your relationship with the Lord is the best part. He takes away the loneliness and insecurities and gives you purpose. Why are you having trouble with the easiest and best part?

I was hoping that someone responding to this thread might tell me the answer to that question. And in fact some responses have helped me in my understanding.

It takes two to have a relationship. I reached out to God. As far as I am aware, God did not respond. That may not be what the Bible and the preachers tell you, but that is what happened – or rather what did not happen. For you it may have been the easiest part. For me it seems to have been impossible.

Of course over the years I have looked for signs of God acting in my life. But as far as I am aware God has not responded in any way.

I know that many Christians have trouble accepting that what I am saying is true, but there it is. I wanted a relationship. I prayed for a relationship. But, no relationship.


Im not gonna lie. I used to have the same problem. Such as not being able to feel the Lord during worship at church or why He doesnt talk back when you pray. But Jesus did say:

"For where two or three gather in my name, there am I with them." Matthew 18:20

So you have to assume He is there you just cant detect Him. I dont know why. Maybe because of sin or some other reason. Maybe a test of your faith.

But like I said in my previous thread, you can try to detect Him through other ways. Why not try?
 
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