The ten commandments Old covenant, and the law "done away" and "abolished" as paul said

bugkiller said:

Where on either?

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Matthew 23:2-3 Jesus states that the Pharisees sit on the seat of Moses, meaning they have the authority to teach the law, and that "therefore do and observe EVERYTHING they teach." Well they teach both Torah AND Oral Torah. So Jesus is advocating following the Oral Torah.

Later on in Matthew 23 Jesus deals with the spice tax, an Oral Torah law. Jesus tells the Pharisees to get their priorities straight and pursue justice and mercy, and then *ALSO* pay the spice tax. So again, Jesus is advocating following the Oral Torah.

bugkiller said:

How?

bugkiller

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Let's try again. Here is the question, broken down into smaller questions to make it really easy for you. Take it one question at a time, and see if you can't answer me.

The question is how do you know which of the 613 you are to obey? How do you know that you are to follow the commandment against gay sex, but don't need to follow the commandment against mixing wool and linen? What about lighting a fire on sabbath? Are we to follow that? How about not having sex with a menstruating woman? Are we to follow that?

bugkiller said:

You're doing nothing except trying to cause trouble.

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Personal attack. You are lucky I chose not to report this.

bugkiller said:

On what? All Christians are Jews? hogwash!!!!!!!

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Of course not all christians are jews. Somehow my point got lost in its complexity.

bugkiller said:

OK then to believe a false teaching. What's the difference?

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One is being mistaken. The other is being evil. My goodness don't you see that?

nomadictheist said:

For anybody who wants to know, I'm not a 7th Day Adventist (nor am I of the KJV only party). However, I do believe that there is value in setting apart a day of the week to be devoted to the service of the Lord and not to our own interests/business. - or, as our Lord and Savior put it, to "do good on the Sabbath."

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Welcome!

ok... nice to know.

Help us understand how you view the details in the 4th commandment as you quote and explain what God is saying there.

nomadictheist said:

How can the commandments be written on our hearts if they're null and void?

I'm aware that Jesus said all the Law and the prophets hang on those two commandments. I made that point before. That means all the law and the prophets show us how to love each other, because honestly, we're too stupid to figure it out on our own.

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Excellent point.

Also Christ claims that Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor" and Deut 6:5 "Love God" are not that which "deletes all the Law and the Prophets" but rather -that which serves as everlasting foundation for them.

LoveofTruth said:

The OT saints were saved but are referred to as being baptized unto Moses. The New testament sants are saved the same way but are referred to as the body of Christ. Both are in Christ and born again but the OT saints were hidden in mystery in Christ they had Christ in them the hope pf glory. All believers in the NT also have Christ in them the hope of glory, but we have a full assurance of hope and a clean conscience, they could not be made perfect as pertaining to the conscience by the law and carnal ordinances etc.

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Speaking of OT saints "They all drank from the same Spiritual Rock and that Rock (Petra) was Christ" 1 Cor 10:4-5.

Gal 1:6-9 -- only ONE Gospel
Gal 3:7 -- and that ONE Gospel - was "preached to Abraham"

nomadictheist said:

As I've said time and again, I'm not putting anybody under the law.

Saying that the law of God remains as just, good, holy, and righteous as it was when He first commanded it is not putting myself (or anyone else) under the law.

Acknowledging that I cannot keep the law, but agreeing with God's command that we aim for perfection even though we'll never achieve it in this life, is likewise not putting myself back "under the law."

Declaring that the old covenant (that we must keep the law for salvation, sacrifice animals for our transgressions, and undergo purification rites) is replaced by the new covenant (that we are found righteous through faith in Jesus Christ, and by this given the power to obey God's holy, just, good, and righteous commandments, though we are no longer bound by them) is also not putting myself "back under the law."

But as Hebrews says, it is the covenant of the law and not the law itself with which fault was found.

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The New Covenant of Heb 8 - points to Jer 31:31-33 as "still valid" and says the Gospel - the New Covenant "Writes the LAW of God on the mind and on the heart" --

Rom 8:4-9 says only the lost "do not submit to God's Law - neither indeed CAN they"

BTW --- Have you ever read the teaching of C.H. Spurgeon or D.L. Moody?

nomadictheist said:

Funny, neither can I. And we both know that true faith produces good works.

Of course there is work in my view. The work comes after salvation, it doesn't lead up to it. There isn't just some magical change once we receive salvation where we're no longer tempted to sin. We have to work at it. Paul says we must "put to death" the deeds of the flesh. He says that he "buffets his body" to bring it into submission. That's hard work.

Is that what we trust in for salvation? No. But it is evidence of salvation. Just like Abraham's work of bringing Isaac to the altar was evidence of his faith. Faith without works is dead.

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This is how Paul buffeted his body, showed evidence of his faith:

2 Corinthians 12:8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

Doesn't look like flagellation. Looks more like confession.

Make the tree good. By the Spirit.

People who put believers under the covenant of the law are people who teach that we are still obliged not to kill, not to steal etc. The gospel is that the promise made to Abraham is finally available, through the giving of the Spirit, through which the tree is made good. Good trees only produce God fruit. If you try to do good works without making the tree good, you are bearing false fruit, fruit not of the Spirit, but of Sinai, of Hagar, son of the slave woman, of Sarah's disbelief, human effort, works of the law, not of belief in the promise of the Word of God. Did you receive the Spirit by hearing with faith or by works of the law? That is if you have indeed received the Spirit, are IN Christ.

These people are as bad as the people who hear without faith, hear without believing, that we must receive the Holy Spirit by confession to make the tree good so that we can produce good works that God prepared for us to do, share Christ's afflictions as sin bearers and do what remains of His work.

2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to besin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Ephesians 2:10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

Wordkeeper said:

This is how Paul buffeted his body, showed evidence of his faith:

2 Corinthians 12:8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

Doesn't look like flagellation. Looks more like confession.

Make the tree good. By the Spirit.

People who put believers under the covenant of the law are people who teach that we are still obliged not to kill, not to steal etc. The gospel is that the promise made to Abraham is finally available, through the giving of the Spirit, through which the tree is made good. Good trees only produce God fruit. If you try to do good works without making the tree good, you are bearing false fruit, fruit not of the Spirit, but of Sinai, of Hagar, son of the slave woman, of Sarah's disbelief, human effort, works of the law, not of belief in the promise of the Word of God. Did you receive the Spirit by hearing with faith or by works of the law? That is if you have indeed received the Spirit, are IN Christ.

These people are as bad as the people who hear without faith, hear without believing, that we must receive the Holy Spirit by confession to make the tree good so that we can produce good works that God prepared for us to do, share Christ's afflictions as sin bearers and do what remains of His work.

2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to besin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Ephesians 2:10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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That is your interpretation of how Paul buffets his body. That's not at all what he says.

"But [like a boxer] I buffet my body [handle it roughly, discipline it by hardships] and subdue it, for fear that after proclaiming to others the Gospel and things pertaining to it, I myself should become unfit [not stand the test, be unapproved and rejected as a counterfeit]."

Or in full context, in another translation:
"24 Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one receives the prize? So run that you may obtain it.25 Every athlete exercises self-control in all things. They do it to receive a perishable wreath, but we an imperishable.26 So I do not run aimlessly; I do not box as one beating the air.27 But I discipline my body and keep it under control, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified."

Confession is a part of what we as obedient children must do, yes. But only a part. We must also discipline ourselves. If we know and love God we keep His commandments. Confession allows us to be forgiven and cleansed of our sin, but it doesn't give us free reign to break the just, holy, good, and righteous commandments of God and chase after our flesh.

We are saved by the blood of Jesus. There's nothing we can do to be saved. But after we're saved we're being conformed into His image. But the latter part doesn't just happen. We have to put effort into it. We can't even do that much without the Spirit, but in the Spirit we are able to draw closer to God every day.

Wordkeeper said:

This is how Paul buffeted his body, showed evidence of his faith:

2 Corinthians 12:8Concerning this I implored the Lord three times that it might leave me.

Doesn't look like flagellation. Looks more like confession.

Make the tree good. By the Spirit.

People who put believers under the covenant of the law are people who teach that we are still obliged not to kill, not to steal etc. The gospel is that the promise made to Abraham is finally available, through the giving of the Spirit, through which the tree is made good. Good trees only produce God fruit. If you try to do good works without making the tree good, you are bearing false fruit, fruit not of the Spirit, but of Sinai, of Hagar, son of the slave woman, of Sarah's disbelief, human effort, works of the law, not of belief in the promise of the Word of God. Did you receive the Spirit by hearing with faith or by works of the law? That is if you have indeed received the Spirit, are IN Christ.

These people are as bad as the people who hear without faith, hear without believing, that we must receive the Holy Spirit by confession to make the tree good so that we can produce good works that God prepared for us to do, share Christ's afflictions as sin bearers and do what remains of His work.

2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no sin to besin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.

Colossians 1:24Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ's afflictions.

Ephesians 2:10For we are God’s handiwork, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

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And I repeat (again) that I do not believe that believers are under the covenant of the law, but they are under the covenant of the lamb.

LoveofTruth said:

No, there is no getting around it, it is clear in the text. Just let the text speak clearly as it does.

"And he wrote on the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments."

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The NEW covenant and the Old Covenant deal with the same in-stone moral law of God - but in the case of one they are external and on stone - and in the case of the New Covenant 2Cor 3 - they are written on tablets of the human heart - as Jer 31:31-33 states.

LoveofTruth said:

If some just want to have one day above another or not eat cewrtain things etc. then paul says to that

"1 Him that is weak in the faith receive ye, but not to doubtful disputations.2 For one believeth that he may eat all things: another, who is weak, eateth herbs.3 Let not him that eateth despise him that eateth not; and let not him which eateth not judge him that eateth: for God hath received him.4 Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.6 He that regardeth the day, regardeth it unto the Lord; and he that regardeth not the day, to the Lord he doth not regard it..."(Romans 14:1-8 KJV)

If it was just a matter of this then the weak ones can eat herbs and have one day above another.

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The text does not deal with the 7th day Sabbath. Rather it deals with the Lev 23 list of annual holy days - one man regards/observes one above the others while another man regards them all.

No reference at all to the weekly Sabbath and there is no practice among NT Christians of refraining from work 7 days a week.

The "eats vegetables only" was not a Jewish practice because their religion required eating meat as part of their feast days. It was 1Cor 8 gentiles who were "accustomed to idols until now" that were being vegetarian so as to avoid eating meat offered to idols.

LoveofTruth said:

The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus makes me FREE FROM the law of sin and death. By the law is the knowledge of sin

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The Law of God - the Commandments of God -- define what sin is. "sin IS transgression of the LAW" 1 John 3:4 who also writes "these things I write to you that you SIN NOT" 1 John 2:1

The NT writers do not abolish the moral law of God - rather they claim it shows all the world to be sinners -- still to this day it works that way.

That is its role for the lost.

, after the faith has come I am no longer under the law.

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God's Law - God's Commandments have this role - for the born-again saints --

NT saints still show that they Love God - when they "Keep God's commandments".

"Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God" Rom 3:31

"what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

"the saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12[/QUOTE]

1 John 5
Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and whoever loves the Father loves the child born of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and observe His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

"If you Love Me KEEP My Commandments" John 14:15
"Love Me and KEEP My Commandments" Ex 20:6

According to the bible the "saints KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

According to the Bible that "cannot keep God's Law" scenario is the case for the lost

Romans 8
3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5 For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.[/QUOTE]


Rom 13
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this,
Thou shalt not commit adultery,
Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal,
Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Thou shalt not covet;

and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.


James 2
8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, ou shall love your neighbor as yourself, (Lev 19:18) you are doing well.
9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. 10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.
11 For He who said, [/FONT]
Do not commit adultery
also said,
Do not commit murder.
Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.
12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty[/QUOTE]