Why so Many Angry Christians today ?

anonymouswho said:

Hello jaxxi, it's nice to meet you. I was hoping we could discuss this, and perhaps we can figure out how the Sovereign God "repents".

"And it repented (וַיִּנָּ֣חֶם) the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart." Genesis 6:6

The Hebrew translated repented is from the Hebrew נָחַם nacham, and it means: comfort, be sorry, moved to pity, have compassion. This doesn't mean God made a mistake, it means that God felt sorrow and compassion when He looked at the inhabitants if the earth. Every man (save Noah and his family) was exceedingly wicked in their hearts. God does indeed log-suffer, but He has no reason to feel regret or change His mind, because He knows that His plan is perfect:

"God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent: hath he said, and shall he not do it? or hath he spoken, and shall he not make it good?" Numbers 23:19

Moses wrote both of these verses, and He understood God well. However, there is another part where Moses thought God repented, but He was wrong:

"And the LORD said unto Moses, I have seen this people, and, behold, it is a stiffnecked people:
Now therefore let me alone, that my wrath may wax hot against them, and that I may consume them: and I will make of thee a great nation." Exodus 32:9

Here, we have God telling Moses that He is going to destroy the Israelites. But notice what He says at the end. God had determined that He was going to destroy them, but He still promises Moses that He will make him into a great nation. Moses pleads with God not to do this:

"Remember Abraham, Isaac, and Israel, thy servants, to whom thou swarest by thine own self, and saidst unto them, I will multiply your seed as the stars of heaven, and all this land that I have spoken of will I give unto your seed, and they shall inherit it for ever.
And the LORD repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people." Exodus 32:13

Moses was wrong. God did not repent of the evil He thought to do to the Israelites:

"For the children of Israel walked forty years in the wilderness, till all the people that were men of war, which came out of Egypt, were consumed, because they obeyed not the voice of the LORD: unto whom the LORD sware that he would not shew them the land, which the LORD sware unto their fathers that he would give us, a land that floweth with milk and honey." Joshua 5:6

"For the LORD had said of them, They shall surely die in the wilderness. And there was not left a man of them, save Caleb the son of Jephunneh, and Joshua the son of Nun." Numbers 26:25

You see my friend, everything happened exactly as God said it would. I hope this clears things up for you. Thank you and God bless you my friend.

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Well if He knew man was going to be so evil and wicked, then why did He create him only to wipe them all out? Was He not aware maybe that Satan would be capable of interbreeding with man since that had never been done before so He was unaware of the effect that would have on His creation? I just don't see how the flood is not the solution to His mistake and the way the Sovereign God repented was Gen 9:11 " I establish my covenant with you and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." 11:13 " I set my bow in the cloud and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and the earth." Hence the rainbow...

chaela said:

If I see a Christian who upholds the bible to the extent you do
proclaim beliefs contrary to what the bible says, it's only logical
that I would use the bible to point out where the bible and
their beliefs differ. This is how our whole exchange started.

Beyond that, I'm not the one who places the bible on par with God
Himself, here. It contains wisdom, for sure, but so do other sacred
texts. It also contains contradictions, like other sacred texts.

Those parts which speak to God's ways being *higher* than our ways are
those I take more seriously. Those that make God sound like a spoiled
child throwing a cosmic tantrum I will more likely question, because, as
I said, His ways are *higher* (not lower) than our ways. Those sorts
of passages come across to me like projections of the all-too-human
writers.

Speaking of which, since the bible you (claim to) value so highly
doesn't question God's perfection, why do you do so? You still haven't
adequately addressed that concern, one which essentially puts you
in the same boat.






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Amos 7:3 " The Lord changed His mind about this." 7:6 " The Lord changed His mind about this. " Its statements like these that make me wonder if He was winging it sometimes! Dont get me wrong... God is the closest thing to perfect Ive ever loved, and I love Him with every ounce of my being, essence and soul. I thought this was a healthy debate where we all come out winners with a better understanding of what we have to work with! Sometimes I struggle relating to a book that portrays a time 3500 years ago Samuel 30:14 " We made the raid on the Negev of the Cherethnites and on that which belongs to Judah, and the Negev of Caleb, and we burned Ziklag with fire." Some of it is weird to me so....Im sorry if I offended you. There should be no right or wrong outcome...only further understanding through patience and love for Our God.

ScottA said:

Jude 1:7 "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

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Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

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These focus more on the existence of the fire, rather than on
what, exactly, gets burned up in it.

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of ungodly men.

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Now this is a good one; it does mention the destruction of
ungodly *people*. Good catch, Scott!

It got me thinking of a somewhat similar instance:

"I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the
destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the
day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

So the part of the person that's actually getting destroyed
is their flesh, which can mean the part of them (ego) that
generates worthless works.

Then there's these:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so
that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that
we should no longer be slaves to sin--" (Romans 6:6)

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but
Christ lives in me." (Galatians 2:20)

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh
with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus
Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me,
and I to the world." (Galatians 6:14)

If anything speaks destruction of a person, crucifixion sure
does... and yet, here we are. What gets destroyed appears
to be the flesh (and the works attached to it—see
1 Corinthians 3:15). More precisely, the ego, basically, or,
in Christian-speak, "The Carnal Mind".

I see the Lake of Fire as the Refiner's Fire, the purpose of it
being the purging of the old self to make way for the new...
baptism by fire, if you will (which is, apparently, a 'thing', as it's
mentioned in scripture). Some have speculated that the Lake
of Fire is God Himself (which, actually, lines up well with the
Eastern Orthodox view of eternity, where heaven and hell are
the same place). Given that one can't be separated from an
omnipresent God, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that
scenario is, indeed, the correct one.

Mark 3:29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”

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Interestingly enough, right before that verse, in Mark 3:28, it says:

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be
forgiven them." This narrows down drastically the number of
people who would be eligible for the eternal BBQ pit, because
if the only kind of sin that won't be forgiven is blaspheming
the Holy Spirit, then there's only a small handful of people
who qualify, since that kind of blaspheming could only be done if
one were a first-hand eyewitness to the miracles of Jesus while
doing so, which would've been limited to just those who
walked the earth the same time he did and actually saw him
in action.

But even then, we have the following, in Matthew 12:32:

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be
forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be
forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." The thing is, Paul
mentions ages (plural) to come after that (see Ephesians 2:7),
therefore, unforgiveness for blaspheming the Spirit could be only
temporary.



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Am responding to angry Christians post. Wow, there sure are! Maybe just over zealous. Debate is fine. Opinions r welcome, but personal attacks and condescension I don't believe r pleasing to God. It grieves
me. II'm sure I've been guilty of this myself but honestly try to avoid it. As brothers and sisters in Christ a little more patients and understanding of heart would be welcome. Love one another is proof we r Christ's

Jaxxi said:

Amos 7:3 " The Lord changed His mind about this." 7:6 " The Lord changed His mind about this. " Its statements like these that make me wonder if He was winging it sometimes!

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I hear ya; I can completely understand why such verses would
raise a few eyebrows.

Another explanation for what might be happening in those
instances is that He was planning on doing what He ultimately
did all along, so where it seems like He’s changing His mind
from Plan A to Plan B, He was fixing on doing Plan B all along
but didn’t want to show His hand, so to speak, until the right
moment.

Dont get me wrong... God is the closest thing to perfect Ive ever loved, and I love Him with every ounce of my being, essence and soul. I thought this was a healthy debate where we all come out winners with a better understanding of what we have to work with! Sometimes I struggle relating to a book that portrays a time 3500 years ago Samuel 30:14 " We made the raid on the Negev of the Cherethnites and on that which belongs to Judah, and the Negev of Caleb, and we burned Ziklag with fire." Some of it is weird to me so....Im sorry if I offended you. There should be no right or wrong outcome...only further understanding through patience and love for Our God.

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I think it’s great that you have that loving relationship
with the Lord—that, imo, is the most important thing in life.
I like the saying, “Let your religion be less of a theory and
more of a love affair”. This is something I try to remember.

And you haven’t offended me at all—hopefully, I haven’t
offended you! There's always something new I learn in these
exchanges, so it’s all good.

My issue is that I’m so wedded to the idea that God is
perfect that to think otherwise gets me a bit antsy, not unlike
finding out that the designated driver of the vehicle I’m in is just
as drunk as everyone else. *Eeeek*! ⊙﹏⊙ God simply *has* to
be The Completely Sober Designated Driver in this party called
‘life’. If He’s schnockered too, we’re in big trouble, lol!


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ScottA said:

Jude 1:7 "as Sodom and Gomorrah, and the cities around them in a similar manner to these, having given themselves over to sexual immorality and gone after strange flesh, are set forth as an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire."

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Hello my friend I have a few questions about the Scriptures you quoted:

"And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.
Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire." Jude 1:6

First, how is the fire that Sodom and Gomorrah suffered an "eternal fire"? There is no fire where these cities were located. And Yeshua tells us:

"Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city." Matthew 10:15

Which leads me to another question. How can eternal fire be more tolerable for one person over another?

ScottA said:

Mark 3:29 "but he who blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is subject to eternal condemnation”

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"But he that shall blaspheme against the Holy Ghost hath never forgiveness (οκ ἔχει ἄφεσιν ες τὸν αἰνα), but is in danger of eternal damnation (μάρτημα)" Mark 3:29

The Greek translated "never forgiveness" is "not have forgiveness unto the age". That's a lot of words that were not translated. The word translated "damnation" is hamartéma, and this is the word for "sin". This verse literally says:

"Whoever moreover anyhow blaspheme against the spirit the holy not has forgiveness to the age but bound is concerning the age sin"

This has nothing to do with

ScottA said:

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that whoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of hell fire.

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This verse is about Gehenna fire, and this is a very long subject. I'd love to discuss it with you. I'll start with a few verses:

"And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell." Matthew 5:30

Does Yeshua literally want us to cut our hand off? If we do, will it literally be sent to a fire, while the rest of the body is saved? If this is true, then is there another way to avoid this fire besides Yeshua, as long as we cut off all of our offending body parts?

Paul yells us to compare Spiritual to Spiritual, not carnal to carnal nor spiritual to carnal. This is not a literal fire in a literal place called Gehenna. Gehenna still exists to this day, and it is a park in the outskirts of Israel. In Hebrew, it is called the Valley of Hinnom. God something very interesting about this Valley of Hinnom:

"And they have built the high places of Tophet, which is in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to burn their sons and their daughters in the fire; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my heart." Jeremiah 7:31

Are we to believe that this idea of burning children in Gehenna never came into God's heart, and yet that is exactly what He is going to 98% of the world? Are humans smarter than God? Is this verse saying that humans gave God a good idea that He had not previously thought of?

This is the fire that God sends the entire world through, including believers:

"For every one shall be salted with fire" Mark 9:49

"Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire." 1 Corinthians 3:12

ScottA said:

2 Peter 3:7 But the heavens and the earth which are now preserved by the same word, are reserved for fire until the day of judgment and perdition [destruction] of ungodly men.

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Again, this verse says "until the day of judgment"

"But the heavens and the earth, which are now, by the same word are kept in store, reserved unto fire against (εἰς eis: unto, until, towards) the day of judgment and perdition of ungodly men." 2 Peter 3:7

There is coming a day when God will judge the world in Righteousness. Nobody is in heaven or hell because this day has not come. The Resurrection has not occurred yet. This day is when God will judge the world in Righteousness:

"Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead." Acts 17:31

God's Judgment has nothing to do with going to heaven or hell. Something amazing is going to happen when He judges the world:

"With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness." Isaiah 26:9

If you are a believer, you are going through this fire right now:

"I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire" Matthew 3:11

"Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:
But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy." 1 Peter 4:12

Judgment has began at the House of God. When the Great Day of Judgment comes, the entire world will be tried through this Fire, and God will refine them as gold and silver.

"Behold, I have refined thee, but not with silver; I have chosen thee in the furnace of affliction." Isaiah 48:9

"2But who may abide the day of his coming? and who shall stand when he appeareth? for he is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap:
And he shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and he shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the LORD an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2

"For the LORD thy God is a consuming fire, even a jealous God." Deuteronomy 4:24

"For our God is a consuming fire." Hebrews 12:29

This is no mystery my friend:

"Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:8

Thank you my Brother and God bless you.

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chaela said:

These focus more on the existence of the fire, rather than on
what, exactly, gets burned up in it.

Now this is a good one; it does mention the destruction of
ungodly *people*. Good catch, Scott!

It got me thinking of a somewhat similar instance:

"I have decided to deliver such a one to Satan for the
destruction of his flesh, so that his spirit may be saved in the
day of the Lord Jesus." (1 Corinthians 5:5)

So the part of the person that's actually getting destroyed
is their flesh, which can mean the part of them (ego) that
generates worthless works.

Then there's these:

"For we know that our old self was crucified with him so
that the body ruled by sin might be done away with, that
we should no longer be slaves to sin--" (Romans 6:6)

"I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live, but
Christ lives in me." (Galatians 2:20)

"Those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh
with its passions and desires." (Galatians 5:24)

"May I never boast except in the cross of our Lord Jesus
Christ, through which the world has been crucified to me,
and I to the world." (Galatians 6:14)

If anything speaks destruction of a person, crucifixion sure
does... and yet, here we are. What gets destroyed appears
to be the flesh (and the works attached to it—see
1 Corinthians 3:15). More precisely, the ego, basically, or,
in Christian-speak, "The Carnal Mind".

I see the Lake of Fire as the Refiner's Fire, the purpose of it
being the purging of the old self to make way for the new...
baptism by fire, if you will (which is, apparently, a 'thing', as it's
mentioned in scripture). Some have speculated that the Lake
of Fire is God Himself (which, actually, lines up well with the
Eastern Orthodox view of eternity, where heaven and hell are
the same place). Given that one can't be separated from an
omnipresent God, it wouldn't surprise me in the least if that
scenario is, indeed, the correct one.

Interestingly enough, right before that verse, in Mark 3:28, it says:

"I tell you the truth, all the sins and blasphemies of men will be
forgiven them." This narrows down drastically the number of
people who would be eligible for the eternal BBQ pit, because
if the only kind of sin that won't be forgiven is blaspheming
the Holy Spirit, then there's only a small handful of people
who qualify, since that kind of blaspheming could only be done if
one were a first-hand eyewitness to the miracles of Jesus while
doing so, which would've been limited to just those who
walked the earth the same time he did and actually saw him
in action.

But even then, we have the following, in Matthew 12:32:

"Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man will be
forgiven, but anyone who speaks against the Holy Spirit will not be
forgiven, either in this age or in the age to come." The thing is, Paul
mentions ages (plural) to come after that (see Ephesians 2:7),
therefore, unforgiveness for blaspheming the Spirit could be only
temporary.



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You cannot use those scriptures that refer to the saved, to mean the same for the unsaved. The scriptures I gave you clearly indicate that they refer to "who" (multiple times) and to "men." Obviously, you do not want to see it.

But the point you are not considering, is "why" creation and salvation exist in the first place. It is because God's plan is to save the lost, but also to destroy Satan, evil, and his followers. God wants "all" to come to repentance...but "all" do not (and are destroyed), and are condemned to eternal damnation. It is not/was not an idle threat.

Right?!...thats true! I think its hard for me also because God created Lucifer who sat in heaven as Gods right hand. He made him to be the smartest, most loved and most beautiful angel in heaven. Then when he turned on God he was cast out..yet he still has access to Gods throne. We see this in Job 2:1 through 2:13.This disturbs me and it doesnt seem right.

Jaxxi said:

Well if He knew man was going to be so evil and wicked, then why did He create him only to wipe them all out? Was He not aware maybe that Satan would be capable of interbreeding with man since that had never been done before so He was unaware of the effect that would have on His creation? I just don't see how the flood is not the solution to His mistake and the way the Sovereign God repented was Gen 9:11 " I establish my covenant with you and all flesh shall never again be cut off by the water of the flood, neither shall there again be a flood to destroy the earth." 11:13 " I set my bow in the cloud and it shall be a sign of the covenant between Me and the earth." Hence the rainbow...

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Amen indeed! I'm not so sure that Satan interbred with man, as the Scriptures do not say. They say the Nephilim were men, and the identity of the sons of God is highly debatable. Regardless, I do not believe God was or ever is unaware of anything. He knows all things. If Satan could interbreed with man, then God gave him the required materials to do so. Besides, this appears to be a side note, and it doesn't seem to have anything to do with the whole human race being wicked.

God destroyed the world in water (baptism) to indicate a new eon. This is a shadow of what was to come. Before the flood, man lived long lives and spoke one language. After the flood, God shortened man's life and confused the languages. Water cleanses, and that is exactly what happened to the world. But cleaning with water cannot completely remove the filth. After so long, the filth comes back. That is why Yeshua has not come to baptize with water, but through fire:

"John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to unloose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire" Luke 3:16

Fire does much more than cleanse. It refines and purifies. You can soak wood, hay, and stubble in water, but it's still going to be wood, hay, and stubble. You can wash gold, silver, and precious metals with water, but you can't scrub the stains out. Fire burns away the stubble and refines the precious metals. Do you understand my friend?

Thank you and God bless you.

Jaxxi said:

Right?!...thats true! I think its hard for me also because God created Lucifer who sat in heaven as Gods right hand. He made him to be the smartest, most loved and most beautiful angel in heaven. Then when he turned on God he was cast out..yet he still has access to Gods throne. We see this in Job 2:1 through 2:13.This disturbs me and it doesnt seem right.

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Don't be afraid my friend. I assure you there is no character named Lucifer that was perfect and then became imperfect. This was Prometheus, and he is a false pagan god. The Scriptures do not teach this. The king of Babylon and the king of Tyre are not Lucifer, they are men. Believe me when I say that I studied this for a long time and became way too involved with Luciferianism. It is a giant hoax. So have no fear, God is Good and Yeshua has saved the world!

Jaxxi said:

Right?!...thats true! I think its hard for me also because God created Lucifer who sat in heaven as Gods right hand. He made him to be the smartest, most loved and most beautiful angel in heaven. Then when he turned on God he was cast out..yet he still has access to Gods throne. We see this in Job 2:1 through 2:13.This disturbs me and it doesnt seem right.

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anonymouswho said:

Don't be afraid my friend. I assure you there is no character named Lucifer that was perfect and then became imperfect. This was Prometheus, and he is a false pagan god. The Scriptures do not teach this. The king of Babylon and the king of Tyre are not Lucifer, they are men. Believe me when I say that I studied this for a long time and became way too involved with Luciferianism. It is a giant hoax. So have no fear, God is Good and Yeshua has saved the world!

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I prefer to take God at his word regarding the serpent, and to know that in spite of what it may appear, he works ALL things together for good for those who love him.

ScottA said:

I prefer to take God at his word regarding the serpent, and to know that in spite of what it may appear, he works ALL things together for good for those who love him.

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I agree my friend. I also believe God works all things after the council of His own will. Do you agree? Thank you.

anonymouswho said:

I agree my friend. I also believe God works all things after the council of His own will. Do you agree? Thank you.

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No. If you read further after each indication of His will, you will usually find a "but."

But your line of questioning, begs the question: If God was just going to fix everything according to his will, why then fight it out to the death, when he's God and doesn't have to make all the mess? [rhetorical]

...I will answer for you: Because Light without removing ("destroying") darkness, is monotone. There's no "glory" in it. His plan, on the other hand...is ALL about glory.

ScottA said:

No. If you read further after each indication of His will, you will usually find a "but."

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"Wherein he hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence;
Having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he hath purposed in himself:
That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will" Ephesians 1:8

There is no "but" after this. The next "but" is in a whole other chapter:

"But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us" Ephesians 2:4

"Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." Isaiah 46:9

I checked chapter 47 as well, and the only "but" in the whole chapter is:

"But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments." Isaiah 47:9

Which has nothing to do with God working all things after the council of His own will.

Do you have another example?

ScottA said:

But your line of questioning, begs the question: If God was just going to fix everything according to his will, why then fight it out to the death, when he's God and doesn't have to make all the mess? [rhetorical]

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ScottA said:

...I will answer for you: Because Light without removing ("destroying") darkness, is monotone. There's no "glory" in it. His plan, on the other hand...is ALL about glory.

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Thank you my friend, but I'll let the Scriptures answer this:

"Vanity of vanities, saith the Preacher, vanity of vanities; all is vanity." Ecclesiastes 2:1

"For the earnest expectation of the creature waiteth for the manifestation of the sons of God.
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God." Romans 8:19

We are pottery, grass, and a vapor in the wind. All is vanity, but God will deliver us from this vanity. Then the creation will be brought into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

The next "but" after this passage is:

"And not only they, but ourselves also, (what does this mean?) which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body." Romans 8:23

And a few verses down we read this:

"For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.
Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified." Romans 8:29

You're correct that this is about glory. But who is God giving this glory too?

"When I consider thy heavens, the work of thy fingers, the moon and the stars, which thou hast ordained;
What is man, that thou art mindful of him? and the son of man, that thou visitest him?
For thou hast made him a little lower than the angels, and hast crowned him with glory and honour.
Thou madest him to have dominion over the works of thy hands; thou hast put all things under his feet:" Psalm 8:3

If you have any verses that you think contradict with any of this, I'd love to hear them. Paul tells us:

"Holding fast the faithful word as he hath been taught, that he may be able by sound doctrine both to exhort and to convince the gainsayers (those that contradict)." Titus 1:9

But please provide Scripture. Everyone wants to talk about some character named Lucifer, something called "the fall", infinite possibilities, and "God trying". I am only interested in Scripture.

Thank you my friend and God bless.

Im so sorry....

Don't be afraid my friend. I assure you there is no character named Lucifer that was perfect and then became imperfect. This was Prometheus, and he is a false pagan god. The Scriptures do not teach this. The king of Babylon and the king of Tyre are not Lucifer, they are men. Believe me when I say that I studied this for a long time and became way too involved withLuciferianism. It is a giant hoax. So have no fear, God is Good and Yeshua has saved the world!

The King of Tyre is indicating Satan because they were both charged with the same crimes. Oh morning star is a reference to Satan as well. Ive studied it also and these are alternative reference. Isaiah 14:12 " How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, ' I will ascend to heaven. I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mountain of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; i will make myself like the Most High. Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit."

Thats about the devil my friend.

O...kay...

anonymouswho said:

Ephesians 1:8

There is no "but" after this. The next "but" is in a whole other chapter:

Click to expand...

My bad...some of them come by defining the context and are stated before rather than after. In either case, none of what you have been considering, is all-inclusive. Context:

Ephesians
1 Paul, an apostle of Jesus Christ by the will of God,

To the saints who are in Ephesus, and faithful in Christ Jesus:

2 Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.
3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, 4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love, 5 having predestined us to adoption as sons by Jesus Christ to Himself, according to the good pleasure of His will, 6 to the praise of the glory of His grace, by which He made us accepted in the Beloved.

anonymouswho said:

Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory." Isaiah 46:9

I checked chapter 47 as well, and the only "but" in the whole chapter is:

"But these two things shall come to thee in a moment in one day, the loss of children, and widowhood: they shall come upon thee in their perfection for the multitude of thy sorceries, and for the great abundance of thine enchantments." Isaiah 47:9

Click to expand...

Wrong again. Context:
Isaiah 46
46 Bel bows down, Nebo stoops;
Their idols were on the beasts and on the cattle.
Your carriages were heavily loaded,
A burden to the weary beast.
2 They stoop, they bow down together;
They could not deliver the burden,
But have themselves gone into captivity.

3 “Listen to Me, O house of Jacob,
And all the remnant of the house of Israel,

Jaxxi said:

The King of Tyre is indicating Satan because they were both charged with the same crimes. Oh morning star is a reference to Satan as well. Ive studied it also and these are alternative reference. Isaiah 14:12 " How you have fallen from heaven, O star of the morning, son of the dawn! You have been cut down to the earth, you who have weakened the nations! But you said in your heart, ' I will ascend to heaven. I will raise my throne above the stars of God, and I will sit on the mountain of assembly in the recesses of the north. I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; i will make myself like the Most High. Nevertheless you will be thrust down to Sheol, to the recesses of the pit."

Thats about the devil my friend.

Click to expand...

Thank you. I wasn't saying that I studied it to boast about how I know it's not the devil. What I meant by studying is, I went to websites like these:

Vigilantcitizen.com

Jesus-is-savior.com

I believed this stuff with all my heart. I still recognize it is happening, but I now understand that the wisdom of this world is foolishness to God.

I saw so many connections, and the whole world seemed to be going straight down to the gates of hell. Governments and the media were perfectly in sync with this wickedness, and I was beginning to think that Satan does all things after the council of his will. I thought God was trying desperately to get the truth out there, but people refused to listen because of their own "free will" decision. I boasted and called people crazy and stupid for not accepting the Gospel. I thought that I was just smart enough to make the right decision. Then I saw these two verses together:

"Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:" Isaiah 46:10

And:

"For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour;
Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.
For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;
Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time." 1 Timothy 2:3

Of course I could not believe it immediately. I was very confused, but I kept asking myself "is the first verse true? Yes" but "is the second verse true? Surely?" Since then, God has brought me very low, and He has shown me things in His word that I used to shake off like it was nothing. He has pulled me out of Babylon, led me out of Egypt through the Wilderness, and finally He has allowed me to enter His rest.

"For therefore we both labour and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Saviour of all men, specially of those that believe." 1 Timothy 4:10

As far as Satan being a perfect fallen angel. This was very hard for me to let go of because I had developed this massive conspiracy about how Satan was secretly running things from behind the scenes. Then I saw these verses:

"Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it." John 8:44

This is Yeshua speaking, and I have to trust him more than my own imagination.

"And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light." 2 Corinthians 2:14

I always viewed this verse as meaning Satan was the "light bringer", but now I realize I never even thought about it. This says he masquerades as an angel of light, which means he is an angel of darkness. If the Orthodox position is true, Satan would be an angel of light, masquerading as an angel of darkness.

I began questioning everything. How did Satan thwart God's will? Is Satan stronger than God? Why didn't God want us to have knowledge? Why did Satan?

Satan does indeed deceive. But remember, he has decided the whole world. Many are called, thus why Christianity is the largest religion in the world. But few are chosen. I assure you my friend, there is no better news than the Gospel. There is nothing greater than what God has accomplished through Messiah Yeshua.

"How beautiful upon the mountains are the feet of him that bringeth good tidings, that publisheth peace; that bringeth good tidings of good, that publisheth salvation; tha" Isaiah 52:7

Thank you my friend and God bless you.