Jerusalem Council.. was it a wise move..

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
At that time there was only one body of believers in each city. And if you look closely at the text you can often tell when Paul was addressing the Jews in Rome and when he was addressing the gentiles. Sometimes it changes from verse to verse.

Please give me the verses where Paul speaks extensively to Jews in Rome. I think he may have adresses a small minority in a couple of verses, but that there was no significant minority for him to speak at length to.

In 49 AD there was a Roman edict expelling all Jews from Rome, including those who followed "Chrestus" (Christus). Aquila and Priscilla were expelled at this time, and it was from them that Paul learned the state of the Roman church.

Again, the Roman empire was only 10 % Jewish at the height of Jewish proselytization. A much much smaller minority of that converted to Christianity due to God putting a veil over their eyes. With the exception of the church at Jerusalem, ALL churches were majority Gentile.

As to Corinthians, you have not kept up on Messianic research on that. The church met next door to the synagogue, and the first "converts" [if you want to call them that] were from Paul's preaching in the synagogue. They were the oldest New Covenant believers and they already knew Torah well. So they would clearly be the early leaders of the congregation.

So they were Gentile "God fearers." So what?

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

DaveW-Ohev said:
I don't think so. While he wrote to an enigmatic Greek named "Theophilis" or "God lover;" both his writing style and certain knowledge of customs and the temple say he was Jewish.

Sounds about right. Do you know the story behind why others believe Luke was not Jewish?

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

ErezY said:
Sounds about right. Do you know the story behind why others believe Luke was not Jewish?

It's because of Colossians 4:7-14. Paul introduces a bunch of men. The first few he introduces as the only Jews of the bunch. Then he introduces a few more, including Luke. Since Luke is not included as among the only Jews of the bunch, he must be a Gentile.

visionary · Aug 12, 2015

If "begin with the Jews first" was the protocol, then in every city that Paul, Peter, etc went, they sought out synagogues, Jews etc first to proclaim the message, after that the "god fearers" and then to all nations.. so in its infancy, it was Jews who became believers first. They would be the majority until the nations took interest and swell in ...
Act 13:42

And when the Jews were gone out of the synagogue, the Gentiles besought that these words might be preached to them the next sabbath.
Act 13:44

And the next sabbath day came almost the whole city together to hear the word of God.

visionary · Aug 12, 2015

ErezY said:
Sounds about right. Do you know the story behind why others believe Luke was not Jewish?

This might answer your question. http://www.christianforums.com/threads/was-luke-a-gentile-or-a-jew.7554134/

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
It's because of Colossians 4:7-14. Paul introduces a bunch of men. The first few he introduces as the only Jews of the bunch. Then he introduces a few more, including Luke. Since Luke is not included as among the only Jews of the bunch, he must be a Gentile.

But another logical consideration is that Luke wasn't working for the kingdom "with" Paul, so as to be included among the Jews Paul was talking about.

Hank77 · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
Gentiles weren't looking for anyone at all. Not a King OR a Redeemer.

Was Job a Jew? What does this verse say to you?

Job 19:25 For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
Job 19:26 And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Job 19:27 Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

Lulav said:
That doesn't wash.

Around the 1st century ad, an estimated 5,000,000 Jews lived outside Palestine, about four-fifths of them within the Roman Empire, but they looked to Palestine as the centre of their religious and cultural life. Diaspora Jews thus far outnumbered the Jews in Palestine even before the destruction of Jerusalem in ad 70.

It is my understanding that it was the same after Cyrus let the them go free from the 70 yrs. of captivity in Babylon. Not all of them chose to leave and return to Jerusalem. Do you have information about this?

ErezY said:
But another logical consideration is that Luke wasn't working for the kingdom "with" Paul, so as to be included among the Jews Paul was talking about.

Could it be that this is not the same Luke who wrote the Gospel and Acts? I ask because Paul added the description of this Luke as being the beloved physician.

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

ErezY said:
But another logical consideration is that Luke wasn't working for the kingdom "with" Paul, so as to be included among the Jews Paul was talking about.

Journaling the book of Acts and writing a gospel isn't working for the kingdom?

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
Journaling the book of Acts and writing a gospel isn't working for the kingdom?

No no that's not what I meant. Paul listed all the Jews working with him. Luke was working for the Kingdom but he wasn't working with Paul, that's what I meant.

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

Hank77 said:
Was Job a Jew? What does this verse say to you?

Job was a rare sort of Gentile that lived during a period time before Noah when some Gentiles still knew and worshiped the One God. By the time of the Apostles, this was simply no longer true, unless Gentiles were TAUGHT about God by Jews or Christians.

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

ErezY said:
No no that's not what I meant. Paul listed all the Jews working with him. Luke was working for the Kingdom but he wasn't working with Paul, that's what I meant.

I think the context isthat all the men Paul introduced were those who worked with him. They were all on equal footing except some were in the Jewish group and others were in the Gentile group.

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
Job was a rare sort of Gentile that lived during a period time before Noah when some Gentiles still knew and worshiped the One God. By the time of the Apostles, this was simply no longer true, unless Gentiles were TAUGHT about God by Jews or Christians.

I always thought Nebuchadnezzar learned from God himself.

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
I think the context isthat all the men Paul introduced were those who worked with him. They were all on equal footing except some were in the Jewish group and others were in the Gentile group.

Yes and then he decides to mention others. Luke included.

Open Heart · Aug 12, 2015

ErezY said:
I always thought Nebuchadnezzar learned from God himself.

I always thought that Nebuchadnezzar learned about God from Daniel.

ErezY · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
I always thought that Nebachudnezzar learned about God from Daniel.

I always thought he learned about God when He tested him by taking away all of his sanity.

Hank77 · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
Job was a rare sort of Gentile that lived during a period time before Noah when some Gentiles still knew and worshiped the One God. By the time of the Apostles, this was simply no longer true, unless Gentiles were TAUGHT about God by Jews or Christians.

I wonder how many there were between Noah (after the flood) and Abram? Like you said about before Noah's time, they must have been rare.

Lulav · Aug 12, 2015

Open Heart said:
Journaling the book of Acts and writing a gospel isn't working for the kingdom?

I think he means that both 'books' were written to one person or for one person as the address at the beginning shows.

Luke 1:1-4
Many have undertaken to draw up an account of the things that have been fulfilled among us, just as they were handed down to us by those who from the first were eyewitnesses and servants of the word. With this in mind, since I myself have carefully investigated everything from the beginning, I too decided to write an orderly account for you, most excellent Theophilus, so that you may know the certainty of the things you have been taught.

Acts 1:1-3
In my former book, Theophilus, I wrote about all that Jesus began to do and to teach until the day he was taken up to heaven, after giving instructions through the Holy Spirit to the apostles he had chosen. After his suffering, he presented himself to them and gave many convincing proofs that he was alive. He appeared to them over a period of forty days and spoke about the kingdom of God.

visionary · Aug 12, 2015

Soyeong said:
Paul kept God's Feasts a number of times throughout Acts and encourage the Colossians not to let anyone judge them for keeping them.

Paul was three years in the desert and didn't go to Jerusalem for the feasts... not one of the three a year he was suppose to attend.
Gal 1:15 But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by His grace, to reveal His Son in me, that I might preach Him among the heathen, immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood; neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then, after three years I went up to Jerusalem.

I agree that Paul was no perfect, but when your interpretation maligns him, you should pause to consider whether it is correct. The Jerusalem Council did not compromise, but upheld God's law. Very consistently man's laws are overruled while God's laws are upheld.

One of the greatest arguments for Noahide is found in the Jerusalem council. Paul and Peter were both instructed by God to minister to the gentiles. Nowhere were they instructed to treat them like second class citizens of the kingdom. Gentiles are not incapable of following God's laws any more than the Jews are incapable. The Laws are not a burden, but a delight. This ideology that gentiles are not equal to the task of obedience is not from God.

Paul never compromised with keeping Jewish traditions that were contrary to the law, but always upheld the law. The traditions that Paul taught were in accordance with the law.

The tradition of treating gentiles like some incapable of Godliness creature is not of God. The Jerusalem Counsel is a reflection of Pharisee traditional attitude and not of God.

visionary · Aug 12, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
"the wall of partition, the "emnity", between Jew and Gentile had been broken down by Yeshua both by His death and His conversations with both Peter and Paul."

What wall of partition are you referring to ?
Is this something specific or generic ?

Both Peter and Paul were given insights in how wrong it is to consider Gentiles unclean or uncommon... this emnity was a wall of partition that kept Gentiles from being fully accepted as heirs to the kingdom.

visionary · Aug 12, 2015

ContraMundum said:
Well, if we all decide that we don't like the Jerusalem Council, we should write a letter to someone to have it expunged from the scriptures as teaching error (most likely as a forgery) or perhaps an indictment on the idiocy and lack of foresight on the part of those Yeshua promised to lead. I'm confident that such a letter would have enormous impact on the world, and would change the face of religion forever. Then we can turn the blowtorch on the other bits of the Bible we find tough or disagreeable to our personal theologies and get them turfed out as well.

Yeah, that's a good idea..............right?

(On a serious note) Why oh why do people think it's spiritually useful to second guess and re-interpret everything as if to expect that a new "idea" about something in scripture will somehow produce more personal holiness or spiritual fruit??? Aren't we here on this planet in this transitory life to grow in faith and holiness rather than to constantly call into question the source of that faith and holiness? Just thinking aloud here....

There is one thing about scripture that doesn't do and that is to blot out the sins, the errors, the inconsistencies, and other fallacies .. but records it as it is in all its blunders of human effort.

It is understandable for the Jews who were raised in this tradition to think that it is ok to continue in the same routine of how to handle gentiles. But Paul and Peter were both given instructions that this was not to be. They bow down to the wisdom of the Jerusalem Counsel thinking this was a good compromise for both parties to start. It was done. It has had its repercussions.

Today, 2000 years later, the ill effects of this decision is still felt among the believers. Most Christians don't obey even the four, and declare it an excuse to ignore the rest.

Jerusalem Council.. was it a wise move..

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