Are unborn babies 'sinners'

Albion

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Then show the scripture wherein God said unborn children are sinners. .
If you'd been following the thread, you wouldn't ask that. A number of such verses were cited by various posters when this thread was young. I especially recommend the first 50 or so posts.

This thread isn't about RCC doctrine. It has no place here.
I'm getting the impression that anything you don't want to hear "has no place here." But as I said, you don't have to agree to the doctrinal stance of the RCC. What its position shows us, however, is that it is not unthinkable that children could be born in sin and not be sent to hell as a result.

If the largest church in the world has held that position since the Middle Ages...it's thinkable. ;)
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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If you'd been following the thread, you wouldn't ask that. A number of such verses were cited by various posters when this thread was young. I especially recommend the first 50 or so posts.
You presume I've not read this thread.
Such verses afforded to support the member contention does not prove verbatim that God damned unborn babies as sinners in utero.
Man's interpretation of scripture to support the man made doctrine they defend isn't what's being discussed. It is what God said of unborns.
There is no scripture that outright states the unborn is a damned sinner. And before someone takes umbrage to that phrase out of ignorance, when sinners are damned until they are regenerate as repentants, they are damned in their sins.

You presume a lot and then presume to speak for me. That's kind of funny really.


I'm getting the impression that anything you don't want to hear "has no place here." But as I said, you don't have to agree to the doctrinal stance of the RCC. What its position shows us, however, is that it is not unthinkable that children could be born in sin and not be sent to hell as a result.

If the largest church in the world has held that position since the Middle Ages...it's thinkable. ;)
Well you know what they say about false impressions.
I comport my faith around God. Not a church.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Paul said,

"9 For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died."(Romans 7:9)

Here we see that "sin revived". This implies that he had a sin nature but it was in a kind of dormant state, and when the law came to his understanding it was revived. So in that state of ignorance he was "alive" (spiritually) and when the commandment came and his sin nature was revived he died ( spiritually) and needed to be born again. The question we would ask there is why when the commandment comes do they die? Why right then is isn revived? This is because Paul is speaking of the sin nature and in Adam all die. But in Christ all are made alive. That all could extend to Cchildren also being in Christ and sabed by Gods grace until they hate the light and sin revives.


This would seem to be the case with all children. So they can be born in Adam and all die because of it,. But still have sin only revive in them when they understand the law or the Light that is given to them. When they hate the light then and only then are they condemned as Jesus said, They hate the light because their deeds are evil. But they have not done any good or evil yet until they know to do good or evil. To him that knoweth to do good and does t not to him it is is sin. Sin is not imputed where there is no law and where no law is there is no transgression and Paul said he was without the law once and alive.

"19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved."(John 3:19,20 KJV)


and there is a time when all children do not know good or evil as scripture says,

"Deuteronomy 1:39
Moreover your little ones, which ye said should be a prey, and your children, which in that day had no knowledge between good and evil, they shall go in thither, and unto them will I give it, and they shall possess it."
 
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LoveofTruth

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As the OP said, this discussion revolves around the unborn. Those babies in utero. I.E. Still in their mothers womb.


Ok

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."


Hosea 12:3
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:"
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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These scriptures do not state, per the OP topic, (are unborn babies sinners) , that yes, the unborn baby by God's decree is a sinner , a damned sinner, in the womb.

The scriptures, if we're going to go there and claim the unborn is a sinner while residing in mothers womb, then what chance does that unborn have of redemption while there? When they cannot become consciously aware of the gospel so as to repent and be redeemed and become sealed by the holy spirit at baptism.
Which means, all miscarried babies , per the fate scripture does tell us awaits the unrepentant sinner who are damned in their sins until they are regenerated in the spirit, are in Hell.

That of course is not the subject of this thread. This thread begins with the OP very clearly stating the question concerns unborn babies. And whether or not they are sinners.

But if one believes yes, they are, that what I shared is according to the scriptures that which awaits them as their fate. If they are sinners, they're not redeemed in utero, and so they're Hell bound should they die unregenerate in the womb.


Ok

Jeremiah 1:5
Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations."


Hosea 12:3
He took his brother by the heel in the womb, and by his strength he had power with God:"
 
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Albion

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You presume I've not read this thread.
Yes, I did make that presumption because you asked for information that had been given again and again, by different posters, earlier in the thread. That would seem a reasonable conclusion.

Such verses afforded to support the member contention does not prove verbatim that God damned unborn babies as sinners in utero.
Just so we don't misunderstand each other, is it your contention that a child can be guilty of sin at birth but not so ten minutes earlier??
 
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LoveofTruth

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These scriptures do not state, per the OP topic, (are unborn babies sinners) , that yes, the unborn baby by God's decree is a sinner , a damned sinner, in the womb.

The scriptures, if we're going to go there and claim the unborn is a sinner while residing in mothers womb, then what chance does that unborn have of redemption while there? When they cannot become consciously aware of the gospel so as to repent and be redeemed and become sealed by the holy spirit at baptism.
Which means, all miscarried babies , per the fate scripture does tell us awaits the unrepentant sinner who are damned in their sins until they are regenerated in the spirit, are in Hell.

That of course is not the subject of this thread. This thread begins with the OP very clearly stating the question concerns unborn babies. And whether or not they are sinners.

But if one believes yes, they are, that what I shared is according to the scriptures that which awaits them as their fate. If they are sinners, they're not redeemed in utero, and so they're Hell bound should they die unregenerate in the womb.


I believe all infants even in the womb need Christ and he died for them also and they are all saved by the grace of Christ

And Jesus said to allow the little infants to come unto him how much more would he allow the ones in the womb
 
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LoveofTruth

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Yes, I did make that presumption because you asked for information that had been given again and again, by different posters, earlier in the thread. That would seem a reasonable conclusion.


Just so we don't misunderstand each other, is it your contention that a child can be guilty of sin at birth but not so ten minutes earlier??

Scripture seems to say that the child is in a sin nature but not guilty of actual transgression until they do evil
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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Yes, I did make that presumption because you asked for information that had been given again and again, by different posters, earlier in the thread. That would seem a reasonable conclusion.
I recall your words earlier to me and share them now as a reminder to you.
"All of that is a rationalization. We cannot approach Biblical truth with a mind to accepting it only if it seems reasonable or appealing enough for us."

No scripture states in and of itself that the unborn are sinners in the womb. (again, this thread is discussing in utero babies and their state).
How could they be sinners in the womb?

When the Psalm 127 tells us that children are a heritage from the Lord, the fruit of the womb a reward. God rewards us with damned sinner babies in the womb? That's a heritage of our Lord? A reward?

And later in scriptures in the new testament born children are given as example in Jesus' parable relating entry into Heaven. Unless we become like little children we shall not see the kingdom of Heaven. How then as little babies in the womb are we sinners? And how then could little children be used as an example by our Lord as to what we must achieve in ourselves in order to see Heaven? If little babies are sinners in utero and, as some believe, little sinners the moment they're born.
Hearkening to Jesus parable, that would mean sinners enter Heaven. If we're to become like unto little children ourselves in order to get there.

Just so we don't misunderstand each other, is it your contention that a child can be guilty of sin at birth but not so ten minutes earlier??
I made no such contention. I stated this thread is about babies in utero.
 
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Albion

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I recall your words earlier to me and share them now as a reminder to you.
"All of that is a rationalization. We cannot approach Biblical truth with a mind to accepting it only if it seems reasonable or appealing enough for us."

No scripture states in and of itself that the unborn are sinners in the womb. (again, this thread is discussing in utero babies and their state).
How could they be sinners in the womb?
If they are human beings, they could be sinners just as they can be at birth. The distinction is pointless unless you are going to argue that a fetus is not human.
 
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Lazy_Proverb

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If they are human beings, they could be sinners just as they can be at birth. The distinction is pointless unless you are going to argue that a fetus is not human.
Now an auxiliary verb used in this case to express a possibility, they could be sinners, means what to that which is sought in the OP?
We can possibly work the scriptures so they tell us a mothers tragedy, her unimaginable heartbreak, is compounded if she thinks her miscarried baby could have been a sinner when they died in her womb? And unrepentant now be damned as sinners are, per the scriptures?
 
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Jesus did not have a human father he was fully God and fully man. Jesus had no sin yet fully human like the Second Adam. Apparently sin is through the bloodline of Adam. And Jesus did not have a Father on earth

I know God was Jesus' Father, but sin is not genetic and cannot be inherited; otherwise Jesus would have inherited it from Mary, unless you are holding to the view that Mary was perfect.
And if you are saying that sinful nature is inherited through men, then as soon as scientists find a way to create sperm, that will be the end of sin; hello perfect world, goodbye Saviour.

Jesus was 100% human, but did not sin.

All children have a sin nature

If that is so then Jesus had one as he was a child. And if having a sinful nature means that we sin - that it is our default position and we can't help it, then that would have been true for Jesus too.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Jesus was a sinner; I'm saying that babies aren't either, and are not condemned if they die inside the womb or shortly after birth.

Jesus came in the likeness of sinful flesh not sinful flesh and yet he was still in human flesh.

So therefore human flesh, human beings, are not sinful from the moment of birth.
Sin is wilful rebellion against God. Adam knew full well that God had commanded him not to do a certain thing, and he did it anyway. Jesus lived so close to God - doing the things God did, saying the things God told him to say and obeying his will. He did not want to disobey God; he loved him, and us, too much for that. The first Adam disobeyed his creator's commands, lured into sin by the look of some enticing fruit; the second Adam, Jesus, told the devil that man does not live by bread alone but by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God. He told his disciples in John 4 that he had food they did not know about - his food was doing God's will.
 
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If an infant in the womb did not have a sin nature or any sin then they would not die. Because the wages of sin is death and because of Adams sin death passed upon all men

Death and sickness came into the world when sin did. But Romans 6:23 is referring to spiritual death.

God told Adam that when he ate the fruit from the tree he would certainly die; but Adam lived for many years. Was God mistaken? No, Adam did die - spiritually - that very day. His sin separated him from God. There was a barrier between them; he was no longer in complete harmony and unity with his maker, as he had chosen to disobey him. From then onwards, people had to make sacrifices to God to atone for their sin.

None of this is true of babies and toddlers. They do not know God, or his word and do not deliberately choose to disobey and reject him.
Jesus said that God is a loving, perfect Father - would a perfect Father condemn, and completely reject, babies who had died before they had had a chance to get to know him - especially since he created them, and it is he who gives life to all?
 
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LoveofTruth

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I know God was Jesus' Father, but sin is not genetic and cannot be inherited;

When Adam and Eve sinned, they died spiritually as well as physical death set in. Thee was a change even in their nature death set into the very spirit and body. All who are born in Adam will die because of this change, even children. If a child had no sin they would not die then. But the wages of sin is death.

The verse I refer to is

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"(Romans 5:12)

"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation;..."(Romans 5:18)


and

"3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"(Romans 8:3)

Here we see that Jesus came in the "likeness of sinful flesh". He was not in "sinful flesh" but still fully human and he came in the flesh He is the second Adam. The angel called Jesus "this holy thing". He was somehow different because he did not have a Human father. But still fully man.

And what do you see the words "sin in the flesh" to mean?

otherwise Jesus would have inherited it from Mary, unless you are holding to the view that Mary was perfect.

No, Jesus did not have a human father and the blood apparently comes from the man. We see somewhat of this in verses where Adam as the head of woman is the one who is referred to.

"12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world"(Romans 5:12 KJV)

Notice sin: singular, not sins. This is not referring to actual transgressions and the multitudes of them. But "sin in the singular is referring to the sin nature of man.

"For if through the offence of one many be dead"(Romans 5:15 KJV)


"18 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation"( Romans 5:18)

"For as in Adam all die,"(1 Corinthians 15:22 KJV)

"19 For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous."(Romans 5:19 KJV)

We see here that sin entered into the world through Adam, not Eve, and this is clear from the above text. So, Adam as the Father of humanity so to speak, represents all who come from Him. We see a similar thing in hHebrews 7 when we read

"9 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham.10 For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him."(Hebrews 7:9,10 KJV)

This is a kind of headship, of the human family. If the first Adam represented all mankind in sin then the second Adam (Jesus Christ) can represent all mankind in righteousness. if all mankind did not fall in the first Adam and dead with him then all mankind could not be saved in the second Adam (Jesus Christ) This would give some weight that the sin nature was passed down through Adam or the man or the father. And since Jesus did not have a human biological father the sin nature was not passed own to him. Yet he came in the "LIKENESS of sinful flesh". The word Likeness is the key. Jesus had no sin. He had to be the spotless lamb in every way. Yet fully human and fully God.

We see in the verses I quoted above also that the first Adam failed and Jesus is the second Adam and he did not fail (1 Cor 15:45 KJV). All inherit this sinful or fallen nature from Adam. But the condemnation is by ONE man again Adam. And through that ONE man sin entered, and death and condemnation came upon all men and it is IN Adam that all die. What does to be in Adam mean?. By the ONE man Adam. So somehow through the man all die.Jesus did not have man as His father. Yet through Mary he connects to humanity.

Humans are by nature children of wrath.

"and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others."(Ephesians 2:3 KJV)

This was passed down somehow through Adam, and so all will have sin revive when they understand the law and Light in their being. And all will die one day because of it. If a child did not have a sin nature of a fallen corruptible flesh then they would not die. Paul says we are in a corruptible flesh in 1 Cor 15 I believe. This corruptible shall put on incorruptible. What does Paul mean by corruptable and where did all humans get this? From Adam is where we did.

When Adam sinned he was changed in his nature and physically, even inwardly in His spirit was dead. All human have this passed down to them as well. But it is in a kind of dormant state and only "revived" when the person knows to do good and when they have the commandment come to their mind and understanding (Romans 7:9, John 3).

It seems Adam was referred to as the reason for sin entering into the world. Adam did not sin merely as "a" man, but as "man" representing all mankind. And as far as Adam and Eve, the two become one flesh. So sin would have been passed upon all man by the one man Adam the father the male. But Jesus did not have a human father so he was not in the same sin nature.

And if you are saying that sinful nature is inherited through men, then as soon as scientists find a way to create sperm, that will be the end of sin; hello perfect world, goodbye Saviour.

Jesus was 100% human, but did not sin.

The expression, ""all have sinned") would appear to mean, not that all since Adam in their own persons committed sin ( and for this discussion we refer to children or infants or those in the womb), but that all sinned in him or in Adam by connection to their head Adam.all are implicated in the sin of Adam1 Corinthians 15:22, "in Adam all die;" and 2 Corinthians 5:14, where all are said to have died to sin in the death of Christ. So the contrary would be true to those in Christ.

This association with Adam is not only a "imputed" sin but an actual inheriting of a fallen nature and flesh and spiritual death also as well as physical. Sin infected all those who had not sinned after this similtude of Adams sin (Romans 5:14 KJV). It was worldwide and for all and all die because of The one mans sin even infants.

and another thought, (though I do not put strong weight on this as I need to examine the biology and facts )But If original sin is transmitted only through Adam and our fathers then this may be somehow connected to the blood. I would have to investigate if we have the blood of our mothers and if the ovum has that ability, or if it is through the sperm fertilising the egg that has the ability to produce blood. So Jesus could be sinless and not have a drop of blood from Adam in His veins. Yet still have the genetic material of man from the mother. So The angel says he is this holy thing. Otherwise why would Jesus not have a human father, why would God need to be His father. Couldn't God just come into a man and give him power and take over? No he had to be God manifest in the flesh fully God and fully man.

I read that "We also inherit our mitochondrial DNA, mtDNA, from our mother, and none from our father.". Again this is an interesting line of study. But I cannot speak of this with strength so it is just a thought.

Here are some other thoughts

"conception occurs when he female ovum is united with the male sperm. Only after fertilization does life and embryonic growth commence. Cardiovascular development occurs soon after fertilization. Without fertilization there could be no blood.Mary was unfertilized; meaning she didn't know a man in the biblical sense. She conceived the Son of God by the overshadowing of the Holy Spirit. The virgin birth produced a human being with sin-free blood that was not of Adamic origin.Yet, Christ did have blood, didn't He? Therefore some form of fertilization must have taken place. She was impregnated by the Word of God through the Holy Spirit!...As a baby develops in the womb, it is separated from the mother by the placenta. The mother's blood comes to the placenta, but stops there. It bathes the outside of the placenta, then through the process of osmosis, diffusion, and capillary attraction, the necessary nutrients and oxygen flow through the membrane that separates mother from child, and eventually pass into the baby's bloodstream through the umbilical cord. the infant's umbilical cord is attached to the placenta, not the mother. The mother's blood circulates on one side of the placenta. The baby's blood circulates on the other side.The baby's blood, which is a self-contained cardiovascular system, doesn't mingle with its mother's blood. It receives nutrition and oxygen indirectly from her blood, but does not receive her blood itself. In fact, the child's blood is often a completely different blood type than the mother's.

The significance of the virgin birth means that because Jesus was truly born of a virgin, there is only one place His blood could have come from, and it wasn't of this earth! He had His Father's blood!"


If that is so then Jesus had one as he was a child. And if having a sinful nature means that we sin - that it is our default position and we can't help it, then that would have been true for Jesus too.

No cloning would be sinful and against God anyway. Man should not tamper with creation or gentics such as that . And as I have been trying to show, Jesus did not have a sin nature he is unique he is the only begotten of the father.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying Jesus was a sinner; I'm saying that babies aren't either, and are not condemned if they die inside the womb or shortly after birth.

i am not saying babies are "sinners" in the sense that they actually transgress or commit actual sins. But i am saying that they inherited the sinful nature or sinful flesh and fall from Adam and death passed upon all men from Adam. But in the grace of Christ and the Light that lights every man ( and infant) that Light is the gift to man and the infants are in that Light and grace until they hate the light and until they have sin revive and they die. This will happen to all people, because of the fallen sin nature , They are by nature children of wrath. This fact that "sin will "revive", no matter what, shows that all are in a corruptible nature or flesh. This would mean as i have been saying that the sin nature is dormant until the law provokes it or until the law come s to their knowledge and understanding. Some have called this "the age of accountability", this is when they are now accountable to God. For to him that knoweth to do good and does it not to him it is sin

So therefore human flesh, human beings, are not sinful from the moment of birth.

I believe I have shown that they are in a sin nature, but have not actually sinned yet. So they have not transgressed a known law and there for sin is not imputed where there is no law, and where no law is there is no transgression and Paul said he was without the law once and alive ( spiritually) as all children are before sin revives. Notice the word "revives", you revive someone who was knocked out or in a passed out state etc. You cant revive a sin nature if it wasn't there already dormant.

Sin is wilful rebellion against God.

and sin is in the flesh as Romans 8 says and "sin", not "sins" willful or ignorant, entered into the world through one man Adam. This refers to the sin nature. And Christ died for the "sin" of the whole world. This is for the sin nature of all, and so when a child is born even in the womb they have sin in their nature and Christ died for them and so they are sin Christ and not condemned at this point.

I would say when a man sins or transgresses the truth and when he commits sins that is the willful part. But all have a sinful flesh and all were by NATURE children of wrath. Christ condemned "sin in the flesh" .

Adam knew full well that God had commanded him not to do a certain thing, and he did it anyway.

Yes, and so sin passed upon all men because of his act. And death came upon all men as well, physical and spiritual.
 
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LoveofTruth

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Death and sickness came into the world when sin did. But Romans 6:23 is referring to spiritual death.

No when Adam and Eve sinned spiritual and physical death happened spiritual immediately and physical eventually. We read,

12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:"( Romans 5:12)

we cannot say that this death is not physical.

14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression,"(Romans 5:14)

None of this is true of babies and toddlers. They do not know God, or his word and do not deliberately choose to disobey and reject him.
Jesus said that God is a loving, perfect Father - would a perfect Father condemn, and completely reject, babies who had died before they had had a chance to get to know him - especially since he created them, and it is he who gives life to all?

I believe that all infants and those on the womb are saved by the grace of Christ and he gave all the true Light that lighteth every man [and infant in the womb I believe]. This light is the light of life in Christ and all infants in the womb are in that light and not condemned until they hate the light (john 3) and they will hate the light one day and be condemned then, when as Paul said they have the commandment come to their knowledge and "sin revives" and they die.

But all who come into this world have fallen short of the glory of God. Even the infant has a fallen nature from Adam and needs Christ. Christ died for the "sin" (singular) of the whole world, "sin", refers to the sin nature. Did Christ die for the infants in the womb also?

The question was , why do children die in the womb? if they had no sin at all they should not die. God said the day you eat you shall surely die. But they eventually died physically as well as spiritually. Adam and Eve would not have died if they had continued to eat of the tree of life.
 
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No when Adam and Eve sinned spiritual and physical death happened spiritual immediately and physical eventually.

?? That's what I said. They died, spiritually, immediately they disobeyed God; they physically died many years later.

we cannot say that this death is not physical.

I didn't. I said that God said "when you eat it you will surely die", some Bibles say "on the day you eat it you will die". And that is what happened - they died, immediately, spiritually.
Death came into the world because the relationship with God and man had been spoiled. Not everything that God had created was now "very good". Human beings had chosen to rebel against their creator. God cursed the ground, said it would produce thorns and thistles and that Adam would have to work hard for his food "until you return to the ground since from it you were taken; for dust you are and to dust you will return." (Genesis 3:19)
Physical death is a consequence of Adam's sin, but sin does not always result in physical death.

I believe that all infants and those on the womb are saved by the grace of Christ and he gave all the true Light that lighteth every man [and infant in the womb I believe].

I believe they are saved because they haven't sinned - neither have new-borns, toddlers and young children.

But all who come into this world have fallen short of the glory of God. Even the infant has a fallen nature from Adam and needs Christ.

Even if it were true that a 2 year old is a sinner and needs Christ, they are not in a position to understand and repent of that sin and accept Christ. People with learning disabilities may never have that understanding or be in that position.

The question was , why do children die in the womb? if they had no sin at all they should not die.

They don't die because of their sin.
They die because sickness came into the world when Adam and Eve sinned and rebelled against God. We live in an imperfect world now because of their actions - people get sick, get genetic faults and so on. Some babies may die because the mother was sick, or maybe because she took drugs, got drunk or whatever.
You asked if Christ died for the infants in the womb also; He did. IF unborn foetuses are wicked sinners, then Christ took their sin upon himself. He doesn't punish them, or children, with death - he died for their sins. If God punished all sinners with physical death, then the world would be almost perfect - non Christians who don't know, or want to know, God, evil leaders and all who harm God's children would physically die, immediately.

God said the day you eat you shall surely die.

They did die on that day - spiritually. God was speaking the truth.
My theory is that Adam took that to mean physical death, and when he saw Eve eating the fruit, saw that she was still alive and did not die before his eyes, he reasoned it was ok to eat it too. That's only an idea and doesn't really change anything. They were spiritually dead - separated from God - the moment they chose to disobey what he, their Creator, had commanded them not to do.
 
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