Job, saint or sinner, hero or villain?

thankfulttt

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None of what you posted above addresses what i asked you. I asked you what you are basing this conclusion of Job on, and based on what God's own testimony of Job is, not man's:

your quote:

1. Was Job born again in the beginning of the book? This would mean he had a personally relationship with God. That he was clothed in God's righteousness.

My answer is no.


This is addressed in seekingsolace's post #95.

Did God lie?

Thank you kindly.

Of course God didn't lie. God never said Job was clothed in God's righteousness. God was pointing to Job's own self-righteousness, which never saves anyone.
 
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brinny

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Of course God didn't lie. God never said Job was clothed in God's righteousness. God was pointing to Job's own self-righteousness, which never saves anyone.

What you posted has nothing to do with the verses that seekingsolace posted, nor about God's own testimony about Job. In addition you stated i had posted something that i did not post, and mis-represented me.

I leave you to your thread.

Thank you kindly.
 
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I never said the second test was not indicated by incitement from Satan. My statement was that after the second test God never makes the statement that it was "without cause".

When God said Satan moved him against Job without cause it only pertained to the first test. You cannot apply that statement for the second test, or to the rest of the book.

Has your intent changed since the original message?
 
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I'm a little confused, the two quotes seem contradictory.

If God was incited against Job without cause for the two tests - in which Job passed, then his dialogue with the three friends is a continuation of his suffering. To lose all he has: children, wealth and health and not sin against God at this stage is pretty remarkable. Whether or not he sins against God while being bombarded with false accusations by 'friends' during his anguish is a side note. Which brings me back to questioning the purpose of the OP?
 
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thankfulttt

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Chapter 38
2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
This is really the only things God says About Job. That he was talking about things that he had no knowledge of.
Verses 3-41 is the list of things that God did/does that Job had no knowledge of.
Chapter 39
Verses 1-30 God is still telling Job about the things he had no knowledge of.
Chapter 40
2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
Job contended [grappled, wrangled, rather like Jacob with the angel of the Lord] with God. But Job says....good idea Job.
4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
Verses 6-13 God is still telling Job about Himself. Then v14 is a 'key verse' I believe.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
Verse 15-24 is all about Behemoth


Job knew more many men have from the beginning even until now.

Hank you have left out the most important verse in this chapter. That verse is---

Job 40:8 Will you also disannul my judgment? will you condemn me, that you may be righteous?

God is making the accusation that Job was exalting himself above God. This is what happened to the Prince of Tyrus.---

Ezekiel 28:2 Son of man, say unto the prince of Tyrus, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Because thine heart is lifted up, and thou hast said, I am a God, I sit in the seat of God, in the midst of the seas; yet thou art a man, and not God, though thou set thine heart as the heart of God:

This is what God was telling Job in chapters 38 and 39.

And again God speaks to the King of Tyrus who was in the garden of God, and says--

Ezekiel 28:12-14 Son of man, take up a lamentation upon the king of Tyrus, and say unto him, Thus saith the Lord GOD; Thou sealest up the sum, full of wisdom, and perfect in beauty. Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created. Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Almost like Job is presented as the perfect one. God had built a hedge about Job to protect him. But look what happened to the king of Tyrus in----

Ezekiel 28:15 Thou was perfect in thy ways from the day that thou was created, till iniquity was found in thee.

God sent the son of man to both the prince of Tyrus and the king of Tyrus. And God sent the son of man(or made of clay) to Job, and that man's name was Elihu.
 
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thankfulttt

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I'm a little confused, the two quotes seem contradictory.

If God was incited against Job without cause for the two tests - in which Job passed, then his dialogue with the three friends is a continuation of his suffering. To lose all he has: children, wealth and health and not sin against God at this stage is pretty remarkable. Whether or not he sins against God while being bombarded with false accusations by 'friends' during his anguish is a side note. Which brings me back to questioning the purpose of the OP?

Read Job 2:3 again. God says to Satan, after the first test, that Satan moved God against Job without cause. Satan says OK, but touch Job personally and it will not be without cause. While Satan did not utter these words, they are implied. Now look after the second test and you will not hear God refuting Satan in Job's defense.
 
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thankfulttt

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What you posted has nothing to do with the verses that seekingsolace posted, nor about God's own testimony about Job. In addition you stated i had posted something that i did not post, and mis-represented me.

I leave you to your thread.

Thank you kindly.
brinny I answered every question that you asked that I understood what you were asking. It seemed like you were asking me to guess what the question was instead of clearly stating the question. When you had a clear question that I could understand I did my best to answer.
 
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thankfulttt

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Chapter 38
2“Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
This is really the only things God says About Job. That he was talking about things that he had no knowledge of.
Verses 3-41 is the list of things that God did/does that Job had no knowledge of.
Chapter 39
Verses 1-30 God is still telling Job about the things he had no knowledge of.
Chapter 40
2“Will the one who contends with the Almighty correct him?
Let him who accuses God answer him!”
Job contended [grappled, wrangled, rather like Jacob with the angel of the Lord] with God. But Job says....good idea Job.
4“I am unworthy—how can I reply to you?
I put my hand over my mouth.
5I spoke once, but I have no answer—
twice, but I will say no more.”
Verses 6-13 God is still telling Job about Himself. Then v14 is a 'key verse' I believe.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.
Verse 15-24 is all about Behemoth
Chapter 41
All of this chapter God describes Leviathan whom He God created.

So what did Job repent of...
2“I know that you can do all things;
no purpose of yours can be thwarted.

3You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my plans without knowledge?’
Surely I spoke of things I did not understand,
things too wonderful for me to know.

4“You said, ‘Listen now, and I will speak;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.’

Verse 5 - key verse
5My ears had heard of you
but now my eyes have seen you.
6Therefore I despise myself
and repent in dust and ashes.”

Key verses....
23“Oh, that my words were recorded,
that they were written on a scroll,
24that they were inscribed with an iron tool on lead,
or engraved in rock forever!

25I know that my redeemer lives,
and that in the end he will stand on the earth.

26And after my skin has been destroyed,
yet in my flesh I will see God;
27I myself will see him
with my own eyes—I, and not another.
How my heart yearns within me!

Job knew more many men have from the beginning even until now.
 
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thankfulttt

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Then v14 is a 'key verse' I believe.
14Then I myself will admit to you
that your own right hand can save you.




I would agree with you that verse 14 of Job 40 is a key verse. Job was exalting himself and his own righteousness and God had been explaining to Job that unless he was equal to God he could not be his own saviour.
 
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thankfulttt

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Verse 15-24 is all about Behemoth

Chapter 41
All of this chapter God describes Leviathan whom He God created.



But who is Behemoth and Leviathan? Behemoth means large beast. Leviathan is described as a dragon in Isaiah 27:1. So we have a beast and a dragon. Where else do we see a beast and dragon? How about Revelation 13:2,4,11 and Revelation 16:13. In Revelation 16:13 we see the Trinity of Satan. The dragon, the beast, and the false prophet.

In Revelation 12:9 we see the great dragon, who is the old serpent who is called the devil and Satan. Also Revelation 20:2.

If Leviathan is Satan than we have to read Job 41 in that context. And then you have God asking Job if he is going to make a covenant with Satan, the king over all the children of pride.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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Job is a book full of pictures. A beautiful read, isn't it? It could be the story of a real person or it could be a prophetic allegory drawing out a historic timeline of humanity. I've heard it both ways. Whatever your conclusion Job is real, God is real and Satan is real; and it gives us a look into a different realm than the one we see every day.

Consider the story opens with Job, a man in the land of Uz who loves God and devotedly adheres to him.

Now the scene switches to the presence of God and we get a look behind the curtain of the natural world and see the unseen. God and Satan hold a conversation during which, Satan accuses Job before God. Now John's term for Satan as The Accuser of the Brethren is plainly seen; but it also gives us a view of God's assessment of Job. What do you think God's assessment of you would be?

Sorry, must Go. Will try to get back as soon as possible.
 
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mmksparbud

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When God said Satan moved him against Job without cause it only pertained to the first test. You cannot apply that statement for the second test, or to the rest of the book.


The first test came because of this:

(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

(Job 1:9) Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

(Job 1:10) Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

(Job 1:11) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 1:12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


And Satan did his best--and Job passed test and he did not curse God. the and the 2nd test came about from this:


(Job 2:3) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

(Job 2:4) And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

(Job 2:5) But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:6) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


and what happened???----Satan said Job would curse Him to His face---DID HE?-----NO!!!---he passed the second test (he may have erred in some thinking, but the bet was that Job would curse God---and he didn't, not even when urged to by his wife--- so he passed.
He repented of his error and was therefore greatly blessed.
 
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mmksparbud

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I never said the second test was not indicated by incitement from Satan. My statement was that after the second test God never makes the statement that it was "without cause".

Why should He say it again?-- The 2nd test was done and he passed--there were no more meetings for Satan to come to so God could gloat.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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Why should He say it again?-- The 2nd test was done and he passed--there were no more meetings for Satan to come to so God could gloat.

That is so true. Satan did not present himself to God again and there was no further conversation between the two. The last conversation we have is between God and Job, and God and Job's three friends.

In answer to the opening post neither Job or his friends should be regarded above the other. Job repented of justifying himself instead of God and the three friends repented of the things they said against Job. All is forgiven. God was right and Satan was wrong. End of the spiritual attack.
 
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Llewelyn Stevenson

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If I might make a comment, here. Something happened to me more than thirty years ago in my relationship with my wife. About four years ago I was overcome with grief and began to contend with God over the injustice of it all, reminding him of his word and promises to those who walk uprightly. Like Job I had done everything in my power to remain right with God, but it appeared help had not come to me. I grumbled to God about the injustice of it all.

Do you know what the amazing thing is? He did not judge me or correct me, though I was wrong to speak to him this way. He just said, "You're just going to have to get over it because I have called you."

I knew that was the end of the matter. I apologised to God for my childishness, forgave every injustice against me, and moved on. Today I'm over it.

To me this is not dissimilar to what happened to Job though I wouldn't compare myself to him. No revelations of conversations between God and Satan here.

But there was an inward battle that sometimes seemed to wrestle with my relationship with God. At times my thinking seemed not to care about it, which is shameful. I would not encourage doing what I did.
 
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mmksparbud

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If I might make a comment, here. Something happened to me more than thirty years ago in my relationship with my wife. About four years ago I was overcome with grief and began to contend with God over the injustice of it all, reminding him of his word and promises to those who walk uprightly. Like Job I had done everything in my power to remain right with God, but it appeared help had not come to me. I grumbled to God about the injustice of it all.

Do you know what the amazing thing is? He did not judge me or correct me, though I was wrong to speak to him this way. He just said, "You're just going to have to get over it because I have called you."

I knew that was the end of the matter. I apologised to God for my childishness, forgave every injustice against me, and moved on. Today I'm over it.

To me this is not dissimilar to what happened to Job though I wouldn't compare myself to him. No revelations of conversations between God and Satan here.

But there was an inward battle that sometimes seemed to wrestle with my relationship with God. At times my thinking seemed not to care about it, which is shameful. I would not encourage doing what I did.

You think you did wrong--kid stuff!! I verbally, out loud told Him to take a hike and leave me alone, that I was quite willing to go to hell and that I was going to live my life the way I wanted so go away!!!! I asked only one thing of Him---I have no problem with going to hell, I just do not want to be amongst those that come against Him and the city with Satan. That to me, was, and still is, incredibly stupid--I mean it's ridiculous to think you can win a battle against God, you don't raise your hand against God--dumb. I figured it was a good deal, send me to hell, I know I will deserve it, but don't let me be with those that raise their hand against you.---And that was my mistake!!! Because there is only one way to avoid being one of them, that is to be with Him---I didn't realize that at the time and so I didn't realize that I had given Him the invitation to go right ahead and save me!! He waited many years for it, but He finally---thank God---saved me!!
 
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thankfulttt

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The first test came because of this:

(Job 1:8) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?

(Job 1:9) Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, Doth Job fear God for nought?

(Job 1:10) Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house, and about all that he hath on every side? thou hast blessed the work of his hands, and his substance is increased in the land.

(Job 1:11) But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 1:12) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only upon himself put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the LORD.


And Satan did his best--and Job passed test and he did not curse God. the and the 2nd test came about from this:


(Job 2:3) And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? and still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.

(Job 2:4) And Satan answered the LORD, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.

(Job 2:5) But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.

(Job 2:6) And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thine hand; but save his life.


and what happened???----Satan said Job would curse Him to His face---DID HE?-----NO!!!---he passed the second test (he may have erred in some thinking, but the bet was that Job would curse God---and he didn't, not even when urged to by his wife--- so he passed.
He repented of his error and was therefore greatly blessed.


THE TWO TESTS OF JOB​

Job had two tests. Whenever you take a test, you get scored on that test. In the reading of the first and second chapters of Job we are caught up with the anguish and torment of Job, and in the process we are blinded to the actual results of the two tests.


The first thing that should come to your observation is the process of the presentation of these two tests. They are virtually word for word in the presentation between the first test, and the second test. What would one obvious reason be for the two presentations being almost identical? One obvious reason would be that we might take note of that which is different between the two tests.


PRSENTATION OF THE TWO TESTS​


The following will be a comparison of the presentations of the two tests with the differences highlighted in blue.


First Test Job 1:6 Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them.


Second Test Job 2:1 Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan came also among them, to present himself before the Lord.


In the first test Satan appears to have been a casual observer, while in the second test you might assume Satan was commanded to be there.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


Second Test Job 2:2 And the Lord said unto Satan, From whence comest thou? And Satan answered the Lord, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it.


They are identical.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Second Test Job 2:3 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil? And still he holdeth fast his integrity, although thou movedst me against him, to destroy him without cause.


The difference is the first test has already taken place, and Job has passed. Two other things should be noted here. 1. That God did the moving, or is responsible for Job’s tribulation. 2. That Satan’s cause was unjust, Job passed. It does not mention God’s cause for allowing the test.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:9-10 Then Satan answered the Lord, and said, doth Job fear God for nought? Hast not thou made an hedge about him, and about his house and about all that he hath on every side? Thou hast blessed the work of his hand, and his substance is increased in the land.


Second Test Job 2:4 And Satan answered the Lord, and said, Skin for skin, yea, all that a man hath will he give for his life.


The difference is that the first test has taken place, and God has removed(The hedge) Satan's first reason for Job blessing God.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:11 But put forth thine hand now, and touch all that he hath, and he will curse thee to thy face.


Second Test Job 2:5 But put forth thine hand now, and touch his bone and his flesh, and he will curse thee to thy face.


The difference here is that Satan gives his new reason why Job will fail.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

First Test Job 1:12 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power; only put not forth thine hand. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord.


Second Test Job 2:6-7 And the Lord said unto Satan, Behold, he is in thy hand; but save his life. So Satan went forth from the presence of the Lord,--.


God’s presentation of the two tests is unique in that every word that could be duplicated was, from one test compared to the other test. It is the results of the two tests that will be presented next, and the obvious differences stand out.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


RESULTS OF THE TWO TESTS​


First Test Job 1:20 Then Job arose, and rent his mantle, and shaved his head, and fell down upon the ground, and worshipped, and said, Naked came I out of my mother’s womb, and naked shall I return thither: the Lord gave, and the Lord hath taken away; blessed be the name of the Lord.


Second Test Job 2:8 And he took him a potsherd to scrape himself withal; and he sat down among the ashes.

(Notice that Job does not bless God. This was what Satan had said, that Job would "not bless" [lo-barak] God to his face.)
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


After the first test Job prostrated himself before God and worshipped God. Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, and then blessed the name of the Lord.


After the second test Job sat down and said nothing. The worshipping and blessing of God is missing. When Job finally said something it was in reply to his wife’s question, in which Job replied with a question, “shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? Notice after the first test Job mentioned his mother’s womb in a neutral manner, but after the second test we hear Job cursing the day he came out of his mother’s womb. (Job 3:1,10-12)



First Test Job 1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.


Second Test Job 2:10 ---In all this did not Job sin with his lips.


Herein lays the key to the two tests. Job is completely exonerated in the first test. Notice that Job did not sin in any manner. Examine that which is added, “nor charged God foolishly”. Job charged God foolishly time and time again after the second test, but after the first test Job did not charge God foolishly.


After the second test it is recorded that Job did not sin with his lips. Sinning with the lips, or as Satan said it, “cursing God to his face”, was the minimum standards for passing or failing in this test. Job passed Satan’s minimum standards, but ask your self, did Job pass God’s standards?


There is no meeting between God and Satan that is recorded after the second test. After the first test God said to Satan in regards to Job, “--There is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil, and still he holded fast his integrity,--” (Job 2:3)


After the second test we do not have God commending Job to Satan, why not?


Here is one other point. There are two ways of sinning as listed in the first two chapters. One is with the heart, as indicated by Job in reference to his sons in Job 1:5. The other is with the lips as mentioned in Job 2:10. Satan’s charge was that Job would curse God with his lips, for that is what is meant by “to God’s face”. The answer to the first test is that Job sinned not (That means Job didn’t sin either with his lips, or with his heart.), nor charged God foolishly.


The answer to the second test is that Job didn’t sin with his lips. That still leaves us with his heart, and with charging God foolishly. Notice that in the end Job says to God, “no thought can be withholden from thee”. Surely Job is speaking of the thoughts of his heart.


Isaiah 29:13 Wherefore the Lord said, Forasmuch as this people draw near me with their mouth, and with their lips do honour me, but have removed their heart far from me, and their fear toward me is taught by the precept of men:


You cannot deny Job charged God foolishly.
 
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thankfulttt

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Why should He say it again?-- The 2nd test was done and he passed--there were no more meetings for Satan to come to so God could gloat.

The fact still remains that God did not give Job a passing grade after the second test, nor did Job bless God. The Hebrew word for curse is "barak" and means to bless. In Job 1:11 we find these Hebrew words "barak lo" that means bless not, and are translated as curse in the English. The next time God speaks is to chastise Job. There should be no reason to have to chastise a perfect and upright man. The two tests were given to us word for word except for the differences, and God had a purpose for that.
 
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