Discussion on Revelation 12

Reply to Teresa,

I have not heard if I would qualify to post on this forum yet, but I don't want to miss this oppurtunity.

I see all of Rev 12 as being the nativity scene if you will, as told by an angel. I assume at this point John is still being told things by the angel that called him up to Heaven in chapter 4.

I had never thought of Mary as being the first christian, but she was definitely chosen by God and the first really deeply involved with what would be called christianity. Interesting.

Anyway, hi to my fellow Canadian.
Justme

27th February 2003 at 08:14 AM Justme said this in Post #41
I had never thought of Mary as being the first christian, but she was definitely chosen by God and the first really deeply involved with what would be called christianity. Interesting. 

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What amazes me is that the very blood that was shed by Christ, that removes our sin, also coursed through Mary's veins!

Deeply involved indeed!

Intersting discussion.

Specifically, anyone have any other ideas on the "wings of the eagle" passage and what it could be alluding to?

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First, I do believe that the woman is Israel. The Dragon (Satan) has a great hatred of the woman (Israel) and her child (Jesus). I think his full fury will be unleashed during the tribulation. The persecution suffered by the ones that Satan hates will be unparalleled. I think this is some of what Rev 12: 13-17 is describing.

One thing that I often think about when studying the book of Revelation is the fact that John was given a vision. He was seeing future events. He was seeing things that he may have been at a loss of words to describe. The “wings of the eagle”…it could be some type of aircraft carrying the persecuted to a protective place in the wilderness?

The woman is Israel and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes. The wilderness is probably the United states, where so many have come, as this is the melting pot and place of refuge for a long time. Ephraim, the lost warrior tribe has much to do in prophecy and I believe it to be the Church which will go and fight with it's brother Judah, against the beast, as scripture foretells. The two witnesses are Judah and Ephraim, just as where the two witnesses that spyed out the promised land and came back with a good report from among the 12 tribes.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

raphe said:

The woman is Israel and the 12 stars are the 12 tribes. The wilderness is probably the United states, where so many have come, as this is the melting pot and place of refuge for a long time. Ephraim, the lost warrior tribe has much to do in prophecy and I believe it to be the Church which will go and fight with it's brother Judah, against the beast, as scripture foretells. The two witnesses are Judah and Ephraim, just as where the two witnesses that spyed out the promised land and came back with a good report from among the 12 tribes.

Rev. 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

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All is fine & good, raphe; but I think if you reflect on it with the help of the Holy Spirit, you will have to admit that the 'wilderness' is not a physical location. Rather it represents the spiritual place of tribulation, a place of suffering and lack where God's people are taught to trust God for their provision and protection. Wasn't the wilderness where Israel learned such things after coming out of Egypt?

So also in the last days, God's people will go into the wilderness of the great tribulation to learn to trust God rather than take the mark of the Beast for their provision. It will last 42 month and they will have only God for their protection. He will carry us on eagle's wing just as it says He did in the first wilderness of Sinai. -- Just before entering the real promised land.

Faithful 1

Faithful1, I could start another thread on how the United States is the wilderness, but trying to explain how prophecy is unique in interpretation compared to actual wilderness experience of Israel before going into the promised land whould be kinda hard to tell you. There will be shadows and similarities, yet it is a hiding place where God protects His own. There are many unique features and similarities that Israel and the United States have.
I still have many questions myself, and by no means have all the answers yet, but do see some things I didn't see before, lining up with the scriptures. It's amazing really, as I've been looking into these things off and on since 1979.

Oh, and Jesus Servant, yes the scripture about the wings is mentioned as a reference to the US being identified in scripture. There is more than you think, and If I ever get up the nerve, I'll try and start a thread on some of it. I'm only half-way through this book by Ellis Skolfield and have tried to share much of what I have learned just from it. It has a chapter with many things about the US and Ephraim/Mannasseh. There is another web-site with information from a Rabbi that show that Ephraim is the US, and Mannaseh is the British Ilses. He does a pretty good job on it - very convincing, and when contacted and told htat his site was being used by Christians to prove points about Chrisitianity, he claimed to have nothing to do with Chrisitians. It's curious that these things are being revealed even from those unwilling. The site is about the Lost tribes of Israel and can be viewed here:
http://www.britam.org/index.html

hi

The Woman in Chapter 12 is the True Olive Tree she represents Those saved in the Lord old and new covenant.

Lets look at the symbols she is clothed in the sun and stands on the moon.

Ps:84:11: For the LORD God is a sun and shield: the LORD will give grace and glory: no good thing will he withhold from them that walk uprightly.

Eph 6: 13: Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. 14: Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; 15: And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16: Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

Rom:13:12: The night is far spent, the day is at hand: let us therefore cast off the works of darkness, and let us put on the armour of light.

So God is the sun. We are to wear God as the Woman wears the sun.

Ps 89:34: My covenant will I not break, nor alter the thing that is gone out of my lips. 35: Once have I sworn by my holiness that I will not lie unto David. 36: His seed shall endure forever, and his throne as the sun before me. 37: It shall be established for ever as the moon, and as a faithful witness in heaven

So the moon is seen as the promise

This is the True Olive Tree Clothed in God and Standing on the Promise.

JesusServant said:

If it was Mary then you must interpret the goings-on as literal.  Therefor, when did this flood come after Mary and the earth open up and swallowed it?  When interpreting scripture, we have to remember that we can't jump back and forth between literal interpretation and symbolic interpretation at a whim.  Satan never came after Mary, he came after Jesus.  But, satan does come after Israel time and time again.

Also, why did Mary trevail at birth and "pain to be delivered".  Mary wasn't in pain to be "delivered" in the physcial sense, but joined Israel in needing to be delivered as a whole from oppression and spiritual wickedness.

OT:  Mary was the first Christian?  That's odd.  The word Christian didn't even exist until many decades after Mary was deceased.

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God does not deal with our mere words like Christian etc... because

calling oneself a Christian is an easy thing to do, but getting things right

in His sight is another thing altogether. Mary's belief in Her son's words

is what counts and terms like Christian do not have any bearing regarding

someone like Mary who believed or a believer who died before Pentecost.

Believers are believers and this is what people typically overlook.

G-d deals with belief or no belief and the date of when the term

Christian existed amogst humans is irrelevant to G-d who

is judging irrespective of time. He does not need the existence

of that word to determine whether Mary was a believer

in what Her Son taught. Her belief is what counts and not mere human words

like Christian. Do not misunderstand this post, but G-d is above the dating or time of
existence of human words regarding prophecy since God's actions on prophecy are time independent.

Many believers who are in the Book of life lived before the term Christian

came into human timelines.

Hi Just the facts,

I have found that the quick way to find out what people are getting at on threads such as these is to ask this question:

What in your belief system would not work if chapter 12 is an angelic telling of the story of Jesus' birth and early years nd so on?

Justme

JesusServant said:

That's great, thanks for the reply, but you missed the entire point of the post. That last response to what someone else said that you responded to had nothing to do with the subject matter at hand, so your response here is way off topic.

God bless

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Please read my post very carefully. It addressed a very important point.

Many deceive themselves with terms and assume they are covered.

The one who used the excuse about the term Christian not existing etc

was in error.