Appeals court refuses to reconsider Pledge of Allegiance decision

ACougar

U.S. Army Retired
Feb 7, 2003
16,795
1,295
Arizona
Visit site
✟30,452.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I'm not sure if I really fit well into any camp. I think individuals should never be required to be politicly correct unless thier speaking for the government. Manditory activites like saying the Pledge of allegiance should also be Politicly Correct in my opinion. I know I'm not always PC, nor do I care to be, however I do think that a governement which seeks to be sensitive to everyones feelings (PC) is a good idea.
 
Upvote 0

Rae

Pro-Marriage. All marriage.
Aug 31, 2002
7,793
408
51
Somewhere out there...
Visit site
✟25,746.00
Faith
Pagan
Marital Status
Married
Bear:
All theistic believers of the world, from every different world religion, believes in a God/Supreme Being. Using the word 'God' in National documents, does not promote, endorse or establish any one of them.

Rae:
Yes, it does. It establishes monotheism over polytheism, an affront to American polytheists like Hindus. It establishes theism over non-theism, an affront to American atheists and agnostics. It interferes, like I said above, with parental rights to raise their kids as atheists or polytheists or agnostics. It is not acceptable and should be done away with ASAP.

But other than that, I agree with you. ;)
 
Upvote 0

Morat

Untitled One
Jun 6, 2002
2,725
4
48
Visit site
✟12,690.00
Faith
Atheist
It's been unconstitutional to require children to say the pledge for several decades now.

That one was the result of a lawsuit file by Jehovah's Witnesses, IIRC, upset at being require to pledge their allegience to something other than God.

Given the usual safeguards regarding "non-mandatory" prayer in school (IE, you can't have voluntary, teacher or administrator led prayer), the Pledge would probably fall that way.

The Supreme Court will most likely chicken out with the "ceremonial deism" route. Which is, frankly, pretty funny. Whenever the court allows something like this under "Ceremonial deism", what they're really saying is "Well, yeah, it's a violation, but it's not worth the hassle".

On the other hand, it's possible they can't go that route, preciesly because of the reactions of Senators and Congressmen over this ruling.

Think about it: It's really hard to claim that the phrase "Under God" is a meaningless bit of ceremony when removing it enrages people, all of who are screaming about how the courts are trying to remove God from their schools. It's obviously not ceremonial deism to most people.
 
Upvote 0
Yesterday at 10:42 PM TheBear said this in Post #29 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=682816#post682816)

All theistic believers of the world, from every different world religion, believes in a God/Supreme Being. Using the word 'God' in National documents, does not promote, endorse or establish any one of them.

LOL. You obviously haven't read the court descision, which shreads this argument to pieces.

Note to all: Before you complain about a court descision and offer "proofs" against it, you should read it. Argumentum ex ignoratia is a waste of time.

Newdow II
 
Upvote 0
Today at 02:05 PM TheBear said this in Post #60 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=683799#post683799)

The First Ammendment is invoked to condemn the use of the words "under God". The same camp invokes the First Ammendment to protect such things as grotesque, vulgar and blasphemous 'art', which mocks God.

How many times must this be said? The Newdow descision does not make it illegal to say "under God" or any version of the Pledge. What it does say is that the Government and the agents there of cannot sponcer a version of the pledge that violates first amendment rights. The same first amendment that protects me from government sponcership of "... under God..." protect you from government sponcership of "...under no gods...." The same first amendment that protects blasphemous art protects pious art. The bill of rights applies equally to all, not just to things that you like.
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟18,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
Today at 12:14 PM TheBear said this in Post #58

The Pledge of Allegiance is not a law, any more than the Flag is a law. Therefore, whatever the wording in the Pledge of Allegiance, it is not a law, and thus does not violate First Ammendment provisions.


TheBear. A law specifies what will be the official pledge of allegiance for US citizens.  That law creates an official pledge that takes a religious stand and says that we are all "under God". The government is making a religious statement that a God exists and that we are under it.  By what right does the government presume to make that decision for everyone? The law is the law that specifies the pledge and that makes that religious decision for everyone.

I'll ask you a question.  Suppose that congress passed another law that changed the pledge to say "one nation under no God".  Suppose then that public schools decided that they would have the kids say that every day, with the teacher leading the class.  Your kids would have to say that this nation is "under no God"? They could refuse but every dat there is the teacher telling your kid that we are not a nation under God.  Do you really think taht the government has the right to do that?
 
Upvote 0

Lacmeh

Well-Known Member
Aug 5, 2002
711
1
Visit site
✟1,156.00
TheBear, of course the flag and the pledge are no laws. The flag and the pledge can´t be a law, but do you deny, that the thesigns, that make the flag up are defined by law? If not, why does the US flag look the same in every state?
Do you deny, that the wording of the pledge is defined by some sort of law? If it wouldn´t, why is the pledge the same in every state?
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
2713godblessamerica.png
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

bigat

Active Member
Jan 10, 2003
371
21
48
Chicago - area
Visit site
✟616.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
[jumping up on my soap box]

So.........what's the point?  Are you going to tell me that your (whoever you are) feelings are hurt because of two words?  GROW UP!  Everyone wants it 'there way'!  Everyone doesn't want to be "forced" to do anything!  It's like we are on the playground again in the 4th grade. 

You want it taken out of the pledge?  Fine.  Does that make you happy?  I doubt it.  You will just go on your quest to find something else that makes you "uncomfortable", never finding the end, never being comfortable until the day you die. 

If you are a Christian, or not a Christian...WHAT DOES IT MATTER?  I contend that it doesn't matter.  By saying the pledge doesn't lead someone to Christ nor should it turn one away.  IF it does turn one away from Christ then there are larger issues then just saying a pledge.  If it DOES lead one to Christ then I question the true commitment of that follower. 

Come on people!! 

:mad:

 

[climbing off my soapbox]
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Pledge of Allegiance




From a speech made by Capt John S. McCain, USN, (ret) who represents Arizona in the U.S. Senate.

As you may know, I spent five and one half years as a prisoner of war during the Vietnam War. In the early years of our imprisonment, the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) kept us in solitary confinement or two or three to a cell. In 1971 the NVA moved us from these conditions of isolation into large rooms with as many as 30 to 40 men to a room. This was, as you can imagine, a wonderful change and was a direct result of the efforts of millions of Americans on behalf of a few hundred POWs 10,000 miles from home.
One of the men who moved into my room was a young man named Mike Christian. Mike came from a small town near Selma, Alabama. He didn't wear a pair of shoes 'til he was 13 years old. At 17, he enlisted in the US Navy. He later earned a commission by going to Officer Training School. Then he became a Naval Flight Officer and was shot down and captured in 1967. Mike had a keen and deep appreciation of the opportunities this country - and our military - provide for people who want to work and want to succeed. As part of the change in treatment, the Vietnamese allowed some prisoners to receive packages from home. In some of these packages were handkerchiefs, scarves and other items of clothing. Mike got himself a bamboo needle. Over a period of a couple of months, he created an American flag and sewed it on the inside of his shirt. Every afternoon, before we had a bowl of soup, we would hang Mike's shirt on the wall of the cell and say the Pledge of Allegiance. I know the Pledge of Allegiance may not seem the most important part of our day now. But I can assure you that in that stark cell it was indeed the most important and meaningful event.
One day the Vietnamese searched our cell, as they did periodically, and discovered Mike's shirt with the flag sewn inside, and removed it. That evening they returned, opened the door of the cell, and for the benefit of all of us, beat Mike Christian severely for the next couple of hours. Then, they opened the door of the cell and threw him in. We cleaned him up as well as we could. The cell in which we lived had a concrete slab in the middle on which we slept. Four naked light bulbs hung in each corner of the room. As I said, we tried to clean up Mike as well as we could. After the excitement died down, I looked in the corner of the room, and sitting there beneath that dim light bulb with a piece of red cloth, another shirt and his bamboo needle, was my friend, Mike Christian. He was sitting there with his eyes almost shut from the beating he had received, making another American flag. He was not making the flag because it made Mike Christian feel better. He was making that flag because he knew how important it was to us to be able to pledge our allegiance to our flag and country. So the next time you say the Pledge of Allegiance, you must never forget the sacrifice and courage that thousands of Americans have made to build our nation and promote freedom around the world. You must remember our duty, our honor, and our country.



'I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.’
 
Upvote 0

crazyfingers

Well-Known Member
May 17, 2002
8,733
329
Massachusetts
Visit site
✟18,923.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Democrat
I pledge allegiance to the flag of the United States of America and to the republic for which it stands, one nation, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all.

That's much more inclusive and does not involve the government telling people what to thing as regards to religion.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

HazyRigby

Bunny Infidel
Aug 4, 2002
2,008
6
Colorado
Visit site
✟10,048.00
Faith
Atheist
Marital Status
In Relationship
Politics
US-Others
Yes, Gunny, we all know how you feel. How about making some persuasive arguments instead of spouting endless rhetoric?

I think we are missing the most important part of all this Pledge nonsense. If America is such a great, amazing country (and if that fact is self-evident), why do we NEED our children to say any sort of pledge? Patriotism should be something that is earned by a country, not given as a result of some silly pledge.

Only nations that can't create patriotism any other way need to use a pledge of this sort. Are we so insecure about our children growing up to hate the U.S. that we believe that this sort of thing is necessary? If that's true, then we have much bigger problems that we need to solve. Pledges are for nations where patriotism is insisted upon. America should be able to earn her patriots, I should think.
 
Upvote 0

Gunny

Remnant
Supporter
May 18, 2002
6,133
105
United States of America
✟35,162.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
The Pledge of Allegiance

I pledge Allegiance to the flag,
of the United States of America,
and to the Republic, for which it stands,
one nation under God, indivisible,
with Liberty, and Justice for all.



GUIDELINES FOR DISPLAYING THE FLAG
1. The flag of the United States should be flown daily from sunrise to
sunset in good weather from public buildings, schools, permanent
staffs, and in or near polling places on election days. The flag
may be displayed 24 hours a day on patriotic holidays or if properly
illuminated.

2. The flag should not be displayed on days when the weather is bad,
except when an all-weather flag is used.

3. The flag should always be flown on national and state holidays and
on those occasions proclaimed by the President. On Memorial Day,
the flag should be half staffed until noon.

4. The flag should be hoisted briskly and lowered ceremoniously. It
should never be dipped to any person not should it ever be displayed
with the union down, except as a signal of dire distress.

5. The flag should never touch anything beneath it, nor should it ever
be carried flat or horizontally.

6. It should never be used as wearing apparel, bedding, drapery, or
decoration, nor for carrying or holding anything.

7. The flag should never be fastened, displayed, used, or stored
in such a manner as to be easily torn, soiled, or damaged. It should
never be used as a covering for a ceiling.

8. The flag should not be draped over the hood, top, sides, or back of
a vehicle. When a flag is displayed on a car, the flag's staff
should be fixed firmly to the chassis or clamped to the right
fender.

9. The flag or its staff should never be used for advertising purposes
in any manner whatsoever. Nor should any picture, drawing, insignia
or other decoration be placed on or attached to the flag, its staff,
or halyard.

10. The flag should not be embroidered on cushions, handkerchiefs, or
other personal items nor printed on anything designed for temporary
use and discarded. However, a flag patch may be affixed to the
uniform of military personnel, firemen, policemen, or members of
other patriotic organizations.

11. When the flag is so worn or soiled that it is no longer suitable
for display, it should be destroyed in a dignified manner,
preferably by burning.



FLAG-FLYING HOLIDAYS


New Year's Day Lincoln's Birthday Washington's Birthday
Armed Forces Day Memorial Day Flag Day
Independence Day V-J Day Labor Day
Thanksgiving Veterans' Day Pearl Harbor Day
Christmas State Admission Day
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums