Being Messianic in the Christian Churches
- Thread starter Open Heart
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"Do you think a scientologist can keep Torah with the blessings of the superiors in Scientology? NO."
I am saying a scientologist is physically and / or hypothetically able, and that doing so would, like I said about Catholicism, take him out of Scientology ultimately.
" a priest who is a Jew can keep Torah with the blessings of Rome."
Doubt it. Not that the blessing of Rome means anything.
The pont is this: Catholicism does not PROMOTE Torah, and in fact Catholicism counter-acts Torah-observance in practice, as well as in theory.
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James Is Back
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Umm....wait a minute....people are demoted to "just asking questions" based on the judgement of who? And who here is the "authentic" teacher of Messianic Judaism that all must sit at the feet of to be counted among their talmidim? People have asked questions here and got some of the most ridiculous and theologically clumsy answers on the planet from those self-identifying as Messianic.
Secondly...I have NEVER seen OH preach Catholicism here. She has defended Catholicism from the male cow manure spouted about it by the very poorly informed campaigners who seem to never shut up about it and who drive the rest of us crazy with their incessant Church-bashing whining which is really just a rebellious spirit cloaked in sanctimonious, haughty and arrogant rhetoric. The Church bashers need to start showing some respect and love. Seriously, if it wasn't for the Churches, those same campaigners wouldn't even have a Bible to mis-quote to the forum.
I'll say it again- and I'll keep saying it- bashing actual halachically Jewish Christians for making an informed choice to enter into mainstream Christianity (that includes proper MJ denominations as well as other Bible believing Churches) is merely anti-semitic- full stop (or "period" as you say). No one has the right to say tell anyone they are not behaving or believing "Jewish enough" and thus should form their faith according to another person's mere opinion about what "Torah observance" should look like. Like a Jewish person is going to take their opinion as valid anyway! Trust me when I say we really don't care what others think we should do, believe or look.
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Who is a Jew?
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
Rom 9:6 And it is not possible that the word of God hath failed; for not all who are of Israel are these Israel;
Rom 9:7 nor because they are seed of Abraham are all children, but--`in Isaac shall a seed be called to thee;'
Rom 9:8 that is, the children of the flesh--these are not children of God; but the children of the promise are reckoned for seed;
Gal 3:15 Brethren, as a man I say it , even of man a confirmed covenant no one doth make void or doth add to,
Gal 3:16 and to Abraham were the promises spoken, and to his seed; He doth not say, `And to seeds,' as of many, but as of one, `And to thy seed,' which is Christ;
Gal 3:17 and this I say, A covenant confirmed before by God to Christ, the law, that came four hundred and thirty years after, doth not set aside, to make void the promise,
Gal 3:18 for if by law be the inheritance, it is no more by promise, but to Abraham through promise did God grant it .
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Faith indicators dictates who can preach and the rest must be guests asking questions.
Do not teach or debate in any Congregational Forum unless you are truly a member and share its core beliefs and teachings. Questions and fellowship are allowed, proselytizing is not.
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Torah - Is the Law of Moses the same thing as the Law of Christ?
Is the old covenant, who's mediator was Moses, the same thing as the new covenant, who mediator is Christ?
This is what I think is the Law of Christ.....
Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes having come near, having heard them disputing, knowing that he answered them well, questioned him, `Which is the first command of all?'
Mar 12:29 and Jesus answered him--`The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;
Mar 12:30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of thy soul, and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength--this is the first command;
Mar 12:31 and the second is like it , this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; --greater than these there is no other command.'
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;
Mar 12:33 and to love Him out of all the heart, and out of all the understanding, and out of all the soul, and out of all the strength, and to love one's neighbour as one's self, is more than all the whole burnt-offerings and the sacrifices.'
Mar 12:34 And Jesus, having seen him that he answered with understanding, said to him, `Thou art not far from the reign of God;' and no one any more durst question him.
Is the old covenant, who's mediator was Moses, the same thing as the new covenant, who mediator is Christ?
This is what I think is the Law of Christ.....
Mar 12:28 And one of the scribes having come near, having heard them disputing, knowing that he answered them well, questioned him, `Which is the first command of all?'
Mar 12:29 and Jesus answered him--`The first of all the commands is , Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is one;
Mar 12:30 and thou shalt love the Lord thy God out of all thy heart, and out of thy soul, and out of all thine understanding, and out of all thy strength--this is the first command;
Mar 12:31 and the second is like it , this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself; --greater than these there is no other command.'
Mar 12:32 And the scribe said to him, `Well, Teacher, in truth thou hast spoken that there is one God, and there is none other but He;
Mar 12:33 and to love Him out of all the heart, and out of all the understanding, and out of all the soul, and out of all the strength, and to love one's neighbour as one's self, is more than all the whole burnt-offerings and the sacrifices.'
Mar 12:34 And Jesus, having seen him that he answered with understanding, said to him, `Thou art not far from the reign of God;' and no one any more durst question him.
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Act 7:30
And when forty years were expired, there appeared to him in the wilderness of mount Sina an angel of the Lord in a flame of fire in a bush.
Act 7:38
This is he, that was in the church in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us:
Do you believe that Yeshua lead the people, was there on Mount Sinai, when the transfer of the lively oracles was gives to Moses? When Moses went back up the Mount Sinai to "atone" for the people, who did He go to and who "atoned"? Do you think it was anyone other than Yeshua? He has always been and always will be our Mediator.
1 Timothy 2:5 For there is one God and one mediator between God and mankind, the man Christ Jesus,
Moses was the visible mediator between God and man at Mount Sinai, but was more of a messenger than the actual mediator before God the Father. Yeshua was there at Mount Sinai.... "This is He"
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Who was leading the people of Israel through the wilderness of sin? “And God went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day ..." "This is He"
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The Hebrew word for angel is malak/מלאך and simply means “a heavenly or a human messenger.”
Prophetically this word can refer to human messengers such as the one coming in the spirit of Elijah prior to Messiah’s coming, as well as to the Messiah himself as in “the Messenger/Malak of the covenant” in Malachi 3:1.
In Genesis 32:22–30 Jacob wrestles with a man Scripture identifies as the Malak of God (Hosea 12:3–5) and whom Jacob called Elohim (verse 30). This same Individual redeemed Jacob (Gen 48:18) and is identified with the Malak of Elohim … the Elohim of Bethel (31:11 and 13) and appeared to Moses at the burning bush (Exod 3:2). Now he is leading Israel in the wilderness. Again who is he? Stephen in Acts 7:37–39 identifies the Messiah (i.e. “that Prophet” Moses mentioned in Deut 18:15) with the “Angel” or Heavenly Messenger that spoke to the children of Israel from Mount Sinai and who gave them the “living oracles,” who the Israelites later rejected for pagan gods.
Paul said of that same Personage that the Israelites did “all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah” (1 Cor 10:4).
Prophetically this word can refer to human messengers such as the one coming in the spirit of Elijah prior to Messiah’s coming, as well as to the Messiah himself as in “the Messenger/Malak of the covenant” in Malachi 3:1.
In Genesis 32:22–30 Jacob wrestles with a man Scripture identifies as the Malak of God (Hosea 12:3–5) and whom Jacob called Elohim (verse 30). This same Individual redeemed Jacob (Gen 48:18) and is identified with the Malak of Elohim … the Elohim of Bethel (31:11 and 13) and appeared to Moses at the burning bush (Exod 3:2). Now he is leading Israel in the wilderness. Again who is he? Stephen in Acts 7:37–39 identifies the Messiah (i.e. “that Prophet” Moses mentioned in Deut 18:15) with the “Angel” or Heavenly Messenger that spoke to the children of Israel from Mount Sinai and who gave them the “living oracles,” who the Israelites later rejected for pagan gods.
Paul said of that same Personage that the Israelites did “all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Messiah” (1 Cor 10:4).
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Paul is not speaking literally but figuratively. Elsewhere in the NT we have LOTS of talk about Jews and Greeks. Paul here is building up the self esteem of the Gentiles, showing them that they have the heart of Jews.
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Yes
No
Yesha
This is the scripture I was going to quote for what I believe and understand.Thank you, for you response. I have no reservations about anything you have said.
There is one thing, Moses did mediate for the people when the Father was going to remove them from the Book. Exodus 32. He was like Yeshua in that he was willing to give his life for theirs.
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Rom 2:17 Lo, thou art named a Jew, and dost rest upon the law, and dost boast in God,
Rom 2:18 and dost know the will, and dost approve the distinctions, being instructed out of the law,
........he continues
Rom 2:25 For circumcision, indeed, doth profit, if law thou mayest practise, but if a transgressor of law thou mayest be, thy circumcision hath become uncircumcision.
.....
Rom 2:27 and the uncircumcision, by nature, fulfilling the law, shall judge thee who, through letter and circumcision, art a transgressor of law.
Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew who is so outwardly, neither is circumcision that which is outward in flesh;
Rom 2:29 but a Jew is he who is so inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in spirit, not in letter, of which the praise is not of men, but of God.
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Irrelevant. I have a friend in a live chat forum who is about to be ordained, and he knows a Jewish priest who is Torah observant. I met a priest back in May who was partially observant. I love it! I can't understand why you don't just rejoice that these people are obeying Torah.
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Lulav
Y'shua is His Name
We must also remember what comes after that as well
Members who share beliefs between other denominations and MJ( practice MJ but also attend another church or congregation) can post with in the tenents of MJ doctrines and beliefs (careful to not teach about your other churches doctrine in MJ) by showing the MJ icon or if using the other Church's icon stating in their Siggy or Title that they are indeed MJ as well.
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