What were British Royal ties with the Nazi regime? | The Guardian

NightHawkeye said:

You are very close to the point, Keith.

To continue the discussion about how a huge number of people shared "his" views ... how did that happen? Dietrich Bonhoeffer didn't share der Fuehrer's views. Dietrich Bonhoeffer spoke out against the Nazis and was denounced as an enemy of the state in 1936. Why is it that the Royals didn't act similarly? Was it because of fear? Was it because they didn't want to ruffle feathers? Did they have a vested interest in der Fuehrer's success?

Or were they simply as utterly stupid as you suggest them to be? If so, then doesn't that strengthen the argument for doing away with the monarchy altogether since it apparently serves no useful purpose at all.

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Wasn't Bonhoeffer actually living in Germany at the time?

If so, then he'd have been in a position to actually know first-hand what was going on behind the scenes.

NightHawkeye said:

I know he traveled some, but yes he stayed in Germany and eventually paid the ultimate price.

Perhaps. He led a church ... but he certainly wasn't the only one who knew what the Nazis were up to.

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There's still the whole issue of proximity.

Often, the first clues that something major is about to happen come in the minor details that are easily overlooked. For example, I recall hearing that some of the first people outside of the Pentagon to figure out that Desert Storm was imminent were the folks at a DC pizza parlor. As the officials at the Pentagon began to work longer in order to plan everything out, they'd begin ordering more and more pizzas to compensate for not being able to leave the building to get dinner. Past a certain point, the pizzeria staff realized that something major had to be going on because of all the orders they were getting.

In this case, as Bonhoeffer was living in Germany he could well have seen the subtle and not-so-subtle clues first-hand. Folks outside of Germany, however, might be forgiven for not seeing the entire puzzle.

That's a cute story, but the run up to Desert Storm wasn't the least bit secret. The Kuwaiti government hired the public relations firm Hill & Knowlton to sell the war to the American people.

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King George V changed his German family name to Windsor.

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FreeSpirit74 said:

And I bet no one on this board, including our resident denier in this thread, even knows the name of the man in your avatar, and why he is of any significance.

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Nah. I know a few do. Artemis97 for one. I'll give 2 to one odds that Blue Wren does also.

Also there are a few who know now because they asked, a couple were even smart enough to say they were pretty sure he was WW II era Germany Military and they doubted I'd pick a Nazi so who was he.

But since you brought up people not knowing much here is a 2 part question. Who is Ernst Rohm and why did his death open the eyes or harden the resolve of those who opposed Hitler?

If one thinks and reads between the lines the answer is there in any short biography.

Hank said:

The laws only explicitly forbid denying holocaust facts to promote anti antisemitism. And it has to be proven in court that your opinion against the holocaust is willfully anti Semitic. Thus I think freedom of speech exists, even in Germany, for as long as your speech, right or wrong is not designed to promote hate against Jews.

Look at it from the government side, they paid (still pay) billions of Deutsch Marks and now Euros to Israel for the damage the Nazis inflicted, only to cater to those that ignore history and say the Nazis did no such thing. I am all for free speech, but keep hate to yourself.

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In the context of other laws on the books in Germany I think your point may be grossly misleading (though not intended to be such).

Any Nazi paraphernalia is illegal in Germany. In a way reasonably so, by the end the Nazis came close to causing the destruction of Germany forever. Most Germans think of Nazis as a cancer and one that could return and cause the death of their country and many of the German people. It is a chance they are not willing to take.

The laws in question do not exist to protect the Jews, they exist to protect Germany form the cancer of Nazism.

FreeSpirit74 said:

how the USA was in the war long before Pearl Harbor, because we were supplying England and Russia with what they needed to fight the Germans. They didn't teach us about that in high school history class! Just that "the USA was neutral until after Pearl Harbor."

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That's not at all what I was taught in school.

trunks2k said:

That's not at all what I was taught in school.

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You need to be more specific about what you weren't taught.

I never even heard of Lend-Lease until the first time I watched The Winds of War, based on Herman Wouk's book of the same name, which I finally got around to actually reading earlier this year (goes by fast considering it is over 1,000 pages long). I am 300 pages away from finishing the sequel.

keith99 said:

In the context of other laws on the books in Germany I think your point may be grossly misleading (though not intended to be such).

Any Nazi paraphernalia is illegal in Germany. In a way reasonably so, by the end the Nazis came close to causing the destruction of Germany forever. Most Germans think of Nazis as a cancer and one that could return and cause the death of their country and many of the German people. It is a chance they are not willing to take.

The laws in question do not exist to protect the Jews, they exist to protect Germany form the cancer of Nazism.

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That is certainly true. I still think the laws in Germany are too restrictive on free speech, but the historical context of the nation at least gives them justification.

They are not even allowed school assemblies in Germany, which were a daily occurrence for me at school.

FreeSpirit74 said:

You need to be more specific about what you weren't taught.

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We weren't taught that the US was neutral until Pearl Harbor. We were taught all about the arms agreements with England and Russia, the convoys, etc. I'm actually really surprised you were not taught it. I clearly remember being taught it in 8th grade. At worst, we didn't really cover anything going on in the Pacific in the lead up to Pearl Harbor. But we really didn't spend much time on WWII in general until I went to a private high school.

Supreme said:

That is certainly true. I still think the laws in Germany are too restrictive on free speech, but the historical context of the nation at least gives them justification.

They are not even allowed school assemblies in Germany, which were a daily occurrence for me at school.

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Daily assemblies? As in everyone leaves the classroom and gathers out on the lawn or in the gym?

Seems a huge waste of time to me.

Remember that assemblies were used for Nazi indoctrination and that actual physical assemblies work best for a tyranny and/or to stir up hate against something. Sometimes when something has gone really bad it is time to do away with it entirely.

That said, eventually there will be a clean slate and it may now be time to consider relaxing that ban.

keith99 said:

Daily assemblies? As in everyone leaves the classroom and gathers out on the lawn or in the gym?

Seems a huge waste of time to me.

Remember that assemblies were used for Nazi indoctrination and that actual physical assemblies work best for a tyranny and/or to stir up hate against something. Sometimes when something has gone really bad it is time to do away with it entirely.

That said, eventually there will be a clean slate and it may now be time to consider relaxing that ban.

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No, school assemblies. You come together as a year or as a school and listen to a teacher/guest speak, or it could be a class providing the assembly.

Ironhold said:

Wasn't Bonhoeffer actually living in Germany at the time?

If so, then he'd have been in a position to actually know first-hand what was going on behind the scenes.

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In 1936 Bonhoeffer was at Finkenwalde engaged in a major fight regarding the direction of the Christian Church in Germany. After a trip to Sweden to gain support he was removed as a lecturer at the Berlin University. It seems the Confessing Church was already at war with German officialdom at that point.

keith99 said:

In the context of other laws on the books in Germany I think your point may be grossly misleading (though not intended to be such).

Any Nazi paraphernalia is illegal in Germany. In a way reasonably so, by the end the Nazis came close to causing the destruction of Germany forever. Most Germans think of Nazis as a cancer and one that could return and cause the death of their country and many of the German people. It is a chance they are not willing to take.

The laws in question do not exist to protect the Jews, they exist to protect Germany form the cancer of Nazism.

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Fair enough.
Here is the Law against willfully promoting hatred. Is does not matter which group.
Both, elevating Nazis and demoting Jews (or other groups), are fobidden
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__130.html

here are the laws against promoting forbidden groups, or your reference to Nazi paraphernalia
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86.html
http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/stgb/__86a.html

So, how about, your point well taken, and cleared up?
If not, I am tempted to make a new thread about Free Speech in modern Germany.

trunks2k said:

We weren't taught that the US was neutral until Pearl Harbor. We were taught all about the arms agreements with England and Russia, the convoys, etc. I'm actually really surprised you were not taught it. I clearly remember being taught it in 8th grade. At worst, we didn't really cover anything going on in the Pacific in the lead up to Pearl Harbor. But we really didn't spend much time on WWII in general until I went to a private high school.

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I want to say that I was well aware of the Flying Tigers (a group of American fighter pilots working with the Chinese military against the Japanese occupation) by the time I got out of high school, but I don't remember where I learned it (in school or on my own time).

Ironhold said:

I want to say that I was well aware of the Flying Tigers (a group of American fighter pilots working with the Chinese military against the Japanese occupation) by the time I got out of high school, but I don't remember where I learned it (in school or on my own time).

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I knew about them by the time I was in high school, but that was because I was interested in wwii arial warfare and had read a book or two about it.

Patrick Bateman said:

Indeed. There's no denying he was an incredible leader. It's just tragic his motives and subsequent actions were so sinister.

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Here's another view I heard some 15 years ago on Christian radio -- it was speculated that Hitler was indwelt by Satan as a way of accounting for his behavior. I understood that to mean Satan entered Hitler just as he is reported to have entered Judas in the Gospels. I know it is unverifiable but I am personally satisfied with that explanation.