Should Ministers get paid???

Open Heart said:

So you are saying Paul only ministered on Shabbat?

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Just what...what..are you saying? Talk about abstract thinking...wow...

Open Heart said:

gain is not speaking of money, but advantages in general. fame, power, riches are just part of it. Like a Televangelist. Not like a normal pastor.

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Gain in that verse was about money...


2 Cor 2:17For we are not like many, peddling the word of God, but as from sincerity, but as from God, we speak in Christ in the sight of God.

Open Heart said:

Like I said, I don't know that the exact 10% applies, but the principal of supporting your Church and the poor carries over. Thank you for your post.

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what about the principle of working Paul and his fellow workers, who in acts 20 told ELDERS.. about that principle?

yeshuasavedme said:

Nope.
Not for Gentiles. Gentile believers are in the same category as Abraham and Jacob and Job and so on and so forth, who tithed, and gave, and blessed....

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so like Abraham, the next time I slaughter some kings, I will use that money, not my money, and tithe one time. And it will be when, Mel appears to me.

RDKirk said:

I don't believe any pastor in America today would preach 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 without heavily qualifying it. I've heard one radio preacher reading 2 Corinthians actually skip right over it. There is no way to honestly interpret that passage except as a redistribution of income.

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Ho bro, well..i mean we can use the redistribution of income phrase almost for any kind of giving, but in 2 cor 8-9, it was a gracious act of giving. Usually that phrase as noted typically speaks of controlled taking, like when the Gov takes and gives, not by the will of those who had it taken.

Open Heart said:

I never said that at that time in history that home churches weren't the main thing. I simply said that they had already begun to meet in public places as well as homes.

You say that they were meeting in the temple to evangelize, but you don't have a lick of evidence to prove it.

Jews are not meant to leave the law. Remember that Jesus spent time with them teaching them. Had he meant them to leave the law, I'm sure he would have told them.

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red above, of course the law was still going on, Jesus did not go to the cross yet, see the death of a testator verses in Heb 9. But now Jews are not under the law, if they come to Christ, just like how Paul was not under law, especially not tithing ordinances..lol

RDKirk said:

Paul: "I robbed other churches by taking pay from them to minister to you." -- 2 Corinthians 11

I think he was speaking primarily of the Ephesians and particularly the Philippians (whose gift he explicitly mentioned in his letter to them), but with no doubt whatsoever, Paul did receive assistance from congregations and did not subsist solely by holding down his own full-time job.

It's more likely he refused donations from congregations that had immature attitudes about such things, or in locations where there were other "apostles" preaching for cash that he specifically did not want to be confused with, while accepting donations from more mature congregations.

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well..tell ya, the Philippians could not even help out at times, and the vast teaching from Paul is, not taking money.

10 I rejoiced in the Lord greatly that now at length you have revived your concern for me. You were indeed concerned for me, but you had no opportunity.

Then paul says he does not make his needs known.


11 Not that I am speaking of being in need, for I have learned in whatever situation I am to be content.


Seems like he is obviously saying he would go hungry first.


12 I know how to be brought low, and I know how to abound. In any and every circumstance, I have learned the secret of facing plenty and hunger, abundance and need.


Then he calls it a gift, that he did not seek, or ask for, which mean just that, not a tithe, not a forced collection, a gift.


16 Even in Thessalonica you sent me help for my needs once and again. 17 Not that I seek the gift, but I seek the fruit that increases to your credit.

So bottom line, Paul was very thoughtful about the whole money thing.

RDKirk said:

If Paul was residing with the Corinthians and received support from the Philippians, that was not "food and a place to stay." It would have been cash.

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But Corinth needed tent makers for their olympic type of games they had, so Paul also worked in Corinth, like hie fellows.....Aquila and Priscilla in Corinth.

And the reason he uses the "robbery" word, is Paul's way of saying he really did not even want to take the money.

Paul saw too many glory boys out there, that fed their egos by getting paid.

1 Thess 2: Nor did we seek glory from people, whether from you or from others, though we could have made demands as apostles of Christ.

Instead he wanted to love them.

2:7 But we were gentle among you, like a nursing mother taking care of her own children.

And not burden them, so they (our) worked.

9 For you remember, brothers, our labor and toil: we worked night and day, that we might not be a burden to any of you, while we proclaimed to you the gospel of God.

Open Heart said:

give respect and honor to those who are in authority. Romans 13:7

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Paul was talking about the government there, not pastors..

7 Pay to all what is owed to them: taxes to whom taxes are owed, revenue to whom revenue is owed, respect to whom respect is owed, honor to whom honor is owed.

MarkRohfrietsch said:

A Pastor who starves to death, serves no one.

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well...he can at least, work, and be.......11 To the present hour we hunger and thirst, we are poorly dressed and buffeted and homeless, 12 and we labor, working with our own hands. When reviled, we bless; when persecuted, we endure;

TheBarrd said:

Once again, I think we need to remember that the pastor is not the lord of the manor...he is the servant.

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yep, Paul called himself a servant.

Open Heart said:

Are you actually saying that James is contradicting Paul? I think you misunderstand James. James is simply pointing out the dignity of all human beings.

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oooooh, but you say james contradicts Paul on faith alone. Which way ya goin? Hmmmmmmm

Open Heart said:

No, it is not necessarily serving mammon. What don't you get about this? Serving mammon means you are letting money control you, instead of you controlling your money.

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If your view is right then it reduces the idea found here and elsewhere to a nullity:

Matthew 6:31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Salvation is from the drives of the body:

If I don't serve da man, I'll starve to death.

The drives of a criminal are the same, it's only a matter of degree.

God is reclaiming His children, freeing them from Egypt, restoring them to Eden. Any clinging to worldly shelters is only a return to Egypt.

Numbers 14:1Then all the congregation lifted up their voices and cried, and the people wept that night. 2All the sons of Israel grumbled against Moses and Aaron; and the whole congregation said to them, “Would that we had died in the land of Egypt! Or would that we had died in this wilderness! 3“Why is the LORD bringing us into this land, to fall by the sword? Our wives and our little ones will become plunder; would it not be better for us to return to Egypt?” 4So they said to one another, “Let us appoint a leader and return to Egypt.”

What do you think the deprivation of water and food were?

To test their oath to turn from Egypt to God:

Deuteronomy 8:3And he humbled you and let you hunger and fed you with manna, which you did not know, nor did your fathers know, that he might make you know that man does not live by bread alone, but man lives by every word that comes from the mouth of the LORD.

Yup, Christ was tested too.

And so would you be, if you went to a real church:

1 Peter 4:12Dear friends, don't be surprised at the fiery trials you are going
through, as if something strange were happening to you.

Israel was tested and failed. You are not even in the running.

LoveofTruth said:

I am not speaking about all men who get money. But about those who do it for money and dont naturally care for the believers,

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If there are people who go into the ministry ONLY for the money - more fool them. On a practical note, if they are unable to care for the sheep, don't visit, help, teach and counsel their flock, they are bad Ministers, are not doing their jobs properly, will likely attract complaints and may well be disciplined/sacked by the church.

Ministry is a vocation; no doubt about it. But that doesn't mean it should be done for free, or the Minister stress themselves out working a second job so they can do God's work for free. If the clergy give themselves 100% to a second job because they need to make some cash, they are not giving themselves 100% to the work to which God has called them.

Wordkeeper said:

If your view is right then it reduces the idea found here and elsewhere to a nullity:

Matthew 6:31“Do not worry then, saying, ‘What will we eat?’ or ‘What will we drink?’ or ‘What will we wear for clothing?’ 32“For the Gentiles eagerly seek all these things; for your heavenly Father knows that you need all these things. 33“But seek first His kingdom and His righteousness, and all these things will be added to you.

Salvation is from the drives of the body:
If I don't serve da man, I'll starve to death.

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But it's all academic, isn't it? I mean, you're not including yourself.

Albion said:

But it's all academic, isn't it? I mean, you're not including yourself.

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I've already stated I'm not claiming to be a disciple.

It seems that many here feel that their Clergy do not have a called vocation from God; those that do seem to be able to commit to a "full time" vocation; and the only way that they can do this is by not having to worry about where their next meal is coming from, or where the clothing their children need can be found.

Frogster said:

Ho bro, well..i mean we can use the redistribution of income phrase almost for any kind of giving, but in 2 cor 8-9, it was a gracious act of giving. Usually that phrase as noted typically speaks of controlled taking, like when the Gov takes and gives, not by the will of those who had it taken.

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And see, that's always the deflection people use to ignore that verse. Rather, that's always the deflection that Americans use to ignore that verse.

Americans always pull in the straw man of "da gov'ment," when of course Paul is not talking about the government at all. Paul is talking about redistributing resources in the Body of Christ, and when Jesus looks into the character of your heart, this is no more optional than baptism or any other instruction given in scripture. Luke 12 is fully applicable here--the alternative is being cut to pieces and cast into the outer darkness.

Frogster said:

So bottom line, Paul was very thoughtful about the whole money thing.

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And yet, Paul did take money, which was my point. Others are arguing here that Paul took nothing at all.

And for that matter, let's not quibble about cash versus "in kind" contributions. As I've already mentioned, even the US military considers "in kind" compensations--benefits and such--to be part of a total compensation package along with cash income. When my grandfather began pastoring, he frequently got paid "in kind" with chickens and such. When his stint as an itinerant pastor ended, he was put in a church-owned parsonage, and that was considered part of his pay.

Frogster said:

But Corinth needed tent makers for their olympic type of games they had, so Paul also worked in Corinth, like hie fellows.....Aquila and Priscilla in Corinth.

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Paul knew he had to distinguish himself fully from the charlatans who were preaching for money to the Corinthians. Are you saying this is instruction for all the Body of Christ that persons who work full-time for the congregation should not receive any compensation for it?