The real jesus

smaneck

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Eloah is a name which refers to being the stone of Israel or the rock of salvation. Elohim is a name used even of the people - even of stone idols...
When YHWH says He is YHWH your Elohim, He is saying something along the lines of I am the word/life of your family of immovable force/stone.

El, Elohim, Eloh can mean god, gods, strength or power. But to my knowledge it never means rock.
 
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RevelationTestament

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RT wrote above:

"Then Baha'i do not believe Christ, and reject biblical scripture."

Well the thread topic appears to be the resurrection of Jesus and Baha'is don't believe bodies of people including Jesus are going to be ascending.
Then again, Baha'i do not believe the Bible.
  • John 20:17
    17 Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
  • Acts 1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judæa, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.

    9 And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight.

    10 And while they looked steadfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel;

    11 Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

  • Revelation 11:12
    12 And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Do we believe Christ? Yes indeed.. When Jesus was on the cross being martyred..with His body scourged and His hands/wrists and ankles/feet driven through..crucified He commended His Spirit to the Father:

Jesus called out with a loud voice, "Father, into your hands I commit my spirit." When he had said this, he breathed his last.

~ Luke 23:46

That's believable enough for me as a Baha'i. Jesus was martyred on the cross and it's pretty clear in scripture.
You cannot claim to believe Christ and reject what the scriptures say He says or what others said about Him.
He said He would die and in three days be raised again.
He said when He reappeared: "behold my hands and behold my feet." He asked His apostles to touch Him.
You believe the Quran over the Bible and the words of Jeshua. The two cannot be reconciled.
Sura 4:157
Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Yusuf Ali: That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-

And what's more the Quran doesn't agree with what you just said.
 
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RevelationTestament

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El, Elohim, Eloh can mean god, gods, strength or power. But to my knowledge it never means rock.
I didn't say it means rock but it refers to immovable force or power. Eloah in particular is used in the Tanakh in referring to the stone of Israel or the rock of our salvation. Look up the usage of Eloah, and you will find it connected to such usage.
And Elohim is the plural of Eloah - not El. Elim is the plural of El.
 
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cloudyday2

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We don't really know how either Christ's or Mary's body functions in heaven but presumably their bodies and spirits have been reunited.

Why would Mary's corpse have been transported to heaven separately from her soul if the goal was for Mary to be alive in her body in heaven? This was not the procedure with Jesus. His body was resurrected after 3 days in the tomb. Then Jesus walked out of the tomb in his resurrection body. Why wasn't Mary similarly resurrected in her tomb and then assumed into heaven? Why transport her dead corpse into heaven separately?

I'm sorry to be persistent, but I have never heard this idea. I was Orthodox a few years ago. I certainly wasn't an expert on Orthodox beliefs, but I tried to read what I could.
 
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smaneck

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You cannot claim to believe Christ and reject what the scriptures say He says or what others said about Him.

hey, you don't believe what others say about him yourself. Does that mean you don't believe in Christ? i rather doubt it. And as i understand it mormons don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture either. or am i wrong about this?

Certainly our interpretations are not nearly as wild as yours!

You believe the Quran over the Bible and the words of Jeshua. The two cannot be reconciled.
Sura 4:157
Pickthall: And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Actually Baha'is believe in the crucifixion. We think this Qur'anic verse needs to be read in the context of another one, namely; 'Say not of those that have died in the path of God, that they are dead. nay verily, they are alive.'
 
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smaneck

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Look up the usage of Eloah, and you will find it connected to such usage.
And Elohim is the plural of Eloah - not El. Elim is the plural of El.

it is up to you to prove your assertions, not up to us to chase phantoms. Elohim is actually the feminine plural in form but it always gets used with a singular male pronoun. Ditto with Allah, except Allah is definitely singular. The 'h' is a feminine ending. El and Eloah are pretty much the same.
 
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Arthra

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I was also going to suggest that the Qur'an compliments the verse in the Gospel of Luke:

Jesus Himself said in Luke 23:46 in a loud voice: "Father into your hands I commit my spirit!" And having said this He breathed His last.

The Quran in a compliment to this verse cited above has

"Allah raised Him up unto Himself..."

Surih 4: verse 158

Also consider the work of John Shelby Spong

Using approaches from the Hebrew interpretive tradition to discern the actual events surrounding Jesus’ death, Bishop Spong questions the historical validity of literal narrative concerned the Resurrection. He asserts that the resurrection story was born in an experience that opened the disciples’ eyes to the reality of God and the meaning of Jesus of Nazareth. Spong traces the Christian origins of anti–Semitism to the Church’s fabrication of the ultimate Jewish scapegoat, Judas Iscariot. He affirms the inclusiveness of the Christian message and emphasises the necessity of mutual integrity and respect among Christians and Jews.

http://johnshelbyspong.com/store/resurrection-myth-or-reality/

Recently I read Bishop Spong's position on the resurrection:

The first thing to note is that Matthew changes Mark’s story about the women at the tomb. First, the messenger in Mark becomes a supernatural angel in Matthew’s story. Next Matthew says the women do see Jesus in the garden. They grasp him by the feet and worship him. This is the first time in Christian history that the Resurrection is presented as physical resuscitation. It occurs in the 9th decade of the Christian era. It should be noted that it took more than 50 years to begin to interpret the Easter experience as the resuscitated body of the deceased Jesus. When Matthew presents the story of the risen Jesus to the disciples, it is on a mountaintop in Galilee where he appears out of the sky armed with heavenly power. Recall once again that when Matthew wrote this narrative the story of Jesus’ ascension had not yet entered the tradition.

( » The Resurrection) johnshelbyspong.com

So it would seem that even some Christians are questioning the historical validity of literal narrative concerned the Resurrection.
 
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RevelationTestament

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it is up to you to prove your assertions, not up to us to chase phantoms.
Um no it is not. I am merely pointing out the truth. They are not subject to proof other than what is shown in the scriptures concerning Him. I can cite the scriptures for you if you like...there really aren't that many scriptures which use Eloah. Elohim is used the most frequently. Elim is used in Daniel.
Elohim is actually the feminine plural in form but it always gets used with a singular male pronoun. Ditto with Allah, except Allah is definitely singular. The 'h' is a feminine ending. El and Eloah are pretty much the same.
I believe they are not the same. I realize the Jews have surely lost some of the meaning of these titles, so am pointing out these things so that people will see the truth about the difference, and what these words truly refer to. I realize the English Bibles all basically translate all these words as "God," which I believe loses the nuances of the different meanings.
The titles/names of God in the Bible refer to what He is being for the sake of His people - thus Father, or stone, etc.
Another place I differ from tradition is the meaning of El Shaddai. Jews believe that refers to the Father. El Elyon is the Father. Because of the Septuagint El Shaddai gets translated as Almighty God in English, but I believe that to be El Gibbor, which is a title the Son inherits per Isaiah 9:6. I believe El Shaddai is a name of the Son as He appeared to Abraham, and others in the Tanakh, mostly the Torah and refers to Him in his capacity to wean us from the breast or milk of the gospel.
 
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Albion

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Why would Mary's corpse have been transported to heaven separately from her soul if the goal was for Mary to be alive in her body in heaven?
Usually, these kinds of legends rest upon the premise that God favored the person in question by preventing the body from decaying in the grave in the usual way. There are other saints about whom the church says that God miraculously preserved the bodies from decay--or some part of them--while they are still here on Earth.

I'm sorry to be persistent, but I have never heard this idea. I was Orthodox a few years ago. I certainly wasn't an expert on Orthodox beliefs, but I tried to read what I could.
I can't answer that question. It (the Assumption) is a variation on the Orthodox belief of the Dormition of the Virgin, and it's celebrated on August 15, the same as the feast of the Dormition in Eastern Orthodox churches. It certainly is well-known among Roman Catholics and is a belief that was proclaimed 'infallibly' by Papal decree in 1950, one of only two such exercises in Papal Infallibility since that doctrine itself was announced by a famous, if controversial, church council (Vatican I) in the late 19th century.
 
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smaneck

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Um no it is not. I am merely pointing out the truth.

Why would we believe you are telling us the truth if you can't produce the evidence? Given what you did with Zachariah 5 i wouldn't be inclined to take much of anything you say about the Bible seriously.

I can cite the scriptures for you if you like...there really aren't that many scriptures which use Eloah. Elohim is used the most frequently. Elim is used in Daniel.

What you need is a good hebrew dictionary and some knowledge of semitic languages in general. Elim is probably written in the parts of Daniel that are in Aramaic rather than hebrew. But yes, Elohim is the term used most frequently.

I believe they are not the same.

on the basis of what?

I realize the Jews have surely lost some of the meaning of these titles, so am pointing out these things so that people will see the truth about the difference, and what these words truly refer to.

And what makes you think you know better than the jews and other hebrew scholars?

Another place I differ from tradition is the meaning of El Shaddai. Jews believe that refers to the Father.

let's check it out. loammi, what do you think El Shaddai means?

El Elyon is the Father.

El Elyon means God the Most high.

Because of the Septuagint El Shaddai gets translated as Almighty God in English, but I believe that to be El Gibbor, which is a title the Son inherits per Isaiah 9:6.

i'm afraid you are working with a mistranslation yourself. The passage should read;

''For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."

in other words it is El Gibbor who calls this child 'prince of peace'

I believe El Shaddai is a name of the Son as He appeared to Abraham

you remind me of those who read Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim in the Qur'an and imagined these to be references to different gods.
 
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RevelationTestament

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hey, you don't believe what others say about him yourself. Does that mean you don't believe in Christ? i rather doubt it. And as i understand it mormons don't believe in the inerrancy of scripture either. or am i wrong about this?
Are we giving up on my request?
As an LDS Christian I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible as handed down from the state church and Catholic church. I believe it included non-inspired books and errant chapters - the latter mainly being 2 extra chapters for Daniel. I believe the Catholic church committed errors in its translation as well.
Although some of this was corrected by Protestants, as an example, the Protestants mainly relied on the Masoretic text vs the Septuagint, and I believe the Masoretes did commit a few errors like accidentally omitting a verse of Psalms which therefore got carried over to the King James Bible.
However, in its teachings the Bible is mostly complete, and is meant to be relied upon.
Certainly our interpretations are not nearly as wild as yours!
Actually Baha'is believe in the crucifixion. We think this Qur'anic verse needs to be read in the context of another one, namely; 'Say not of those that have died in the path of God, that they are dead. nay verily, they are alive.'
As I have shown in several places the Baha'i directly conflict even with the very simplest words of Christ - LDS Christians do not. We believe He was crucified, and physically resurrected as He said, and as witnessed to by his apostles - Baha'i do not. We believe He physically ascended up into the heavens - Baha'i do not. We believe Jeshua is the only begotten Son of the Father - Baha'i do not. I can show scripturally that He is YHWH Elohim with the Father - Baha'i believe God does not "share His glory." Isaiah 42 says He will give His glory to none other than His servant. Therefore the Baha'i Faith denies the purpose of the atonement.
These are some of the most basic points of the gospel as taught by the apostles including Paul, which Baha'i deny, therefore becoming the proponents of "another gospel."
 
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Albion

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As I have shown in several places the Baha'i directly conflict even with the very simplest words of Christ - LDS Christians do not.

Mormonism probably is closer to conventional Christianity than Baha'i, but OTOH, neither is especially close.
 
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Albion

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So it would seem that even some Christians are questioning the historical validity of literal narrative concerned the Resurrection.

You mean Bishop Spong, I assume. :doh: That's a pretty slender reed on which to hang your argument since he's considered an apostate by most Christians.
 
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smaneck

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Are we giving up on my request?

What you made is a false statement that we don't believe in Christ. i submit that the Christ we believe in as Baha'is is much closer to the Biblical one than the Christ you believe in as a mormon.

As an LDS Christian I do not believe in the inerrancy of the Bible

Then don't criticize us if we don't take the Bible as inerrant.

However, in its teachings the Bible is mostly complete, and is meant to be relied upon.

And i also believe in the integrity of scripture.

As I have shown in several places the Baha'i directly conflict even with the very simplest words of Christ

uh, no. you had showed us disagreeing with what others had to say about Christ.

-
We believe He was crucified

So do we.

,
and physically resurrected as He said,

he didn't say anything about being physically resurrected.

We believe Jeshua is the only begotten Son of the Father

Really? i thought mormons believed the heavenly Father had lots of kids.

Baha'i believe God does not "share His glory."

huh? you do realize that Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God?

Therefore the Baha'i Faith denies the purpose of the atonement.

how do we get from there to atonement? That keeps popping up in the most irrelevant places. if you want to talk about what Baha'is believe about atonement feel free to start a new thread on the subject. i'm guessing you haven't the foggiest idea what we believe on this subject yet you keep insisting we deny it.
 
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smaneck

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You mean Bishop Spong, I assume. :doh: That's a pretty slender reed on which to hang your argument since he's considered an apostate by most Christians.

not most Christians, most evangelicals i suppose. he represents some pretty solid scholarship in any case.
 
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RevelationTestament

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Why would we believe you are telling us the truth if you can't produce the evidence? Given what you did with Zachariah 5 i wouldn't be inclined to take much of anything you say about the Bible seriously.
Evidence is not "proof" which is what you asked for. There is plenty of evidence.

What you need is a good hebrew dictionary and some knowledge of semitic languages in general. Elim is probably written in the parts of Daniel that are in Aramaic rather than hebrew. But yes, Elohim is the term used most frequently.
Why would I only rely upon a Hebrew dictionary when the Hebrews have lost even the meaning of YHWH, if they ever had it? And translate names like El Shaddai into "the Almighty God" in the Septuagint?
I rely first and foremost on the Lord and His scriptures.

And what makes you think you know better than the jews and other hebrew scholars?
See above.

let's check it out. loammi, what do you think El Shaddai means?
Should be interesting. This is quite the unsettled debate, but there is a minority who like me believe it refers somehow to breasts/sufficiency. I believe it to involve a somewhat incorrect verbal conjunction of shad(breast) and dai(enough). Thus, when Jesus appeared to Abram ("before Abraham I am" John), and tells Him to be perfect He is weaning him from the simple to a serious covenantal relationship.

El Elyon means God the Most high.
Yep, and Luke tells us that Jeshua was the Son of the Most high.

i'm afraid you are working with a mistranslation yourself. The passage should read;

''For a child has been born to us, a son given to us, and the authority is upon his shoulder, and the wondrous adviser, the mighty God, the everlasting Father, called his name, "the prince of peace."
in other words it is El Gibbor who calls this child 'prince of peace'
Per who? The vast majority of translators disagree.

you remind me of those who read Ar-Rahman and Ar-Rahim in the Qur'an and imagined these to be references to different gods.
YHWH is one as are Elohim. Can 2 or 3 persons be one? A family is one. Nevertheless only the Father is El Elyon, the Most High El, and none in this world share that title with Him.
 
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smaneck

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Why would I only rely upon a Hebrew dictionary when the Hebrews have lost even the meaning of YHWH, if they ever had it?

not really. We have a fairly good idea what the Tetragram stands for. it means something like i am that i am.

And translate names like El Shaddai into "the Almighty God" in the Septuagint?

All-Sufficing would have probably been a better translation. But i note you are not complaining about almah being mistranslated as virgin when in fact it means young lady. however, i wouldn't not take the Septuagint as representative of jewish scholarship as a whole in any case. And it certainly has nothing to do with current hebrew dictionaries.

I rely first and foremost on the Lord and His scriptures.

looks to me like you are relying a lot on your imagination. That is certainly what you did with Zechariah 5.
 
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single eye

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i believe gall in the new Testatment refers to a bitter drink containing opium or some other type of pain killer. in any case, jesus tasted it and refused to drink anymore.
In Mt. 27:34 Jesus was offered wine and gall which He fefused to drink. In Mk. 15:23 He was offered wine and myrrh and refused to drink. In Lk. 23:36 He was offered vinegar and we are not told if He drank or not. In Mt. 27:48, Mk. 15:36, and Jn. 19:28-30 we are told He was offered vinegar and He did drink. It is not possible to draw any significant conclusions regarding what Jesus drank and why from these passages alone. This is why scholars who have invested much time and effort to uncover the historical relevance on such activities is required. If Jesus were dead He would not have bled when pierced by the roman soldier in the side. Contrary to what the text says, the amount of aloe and myrrh brought to Jesus by Nicodemus was for reviving, not burying.
 
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RevelationTestament

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What you made is a false statement that we don't believe in Christ. i submit that the Christ we believe in as Baha'is is much closer to the Biblical one than the Christ you believe in as a mormon.
Ah, I see we are bringing out the boxing gloves.
That was not my statement. The claim was made that "we believe Christ," and I showed you do NOT. Baha'i reject His words, and therefore do not believe Him. Now you may "believe in Christ" in the sense that you believe He existed, but that is a different matter entirely. The devils believe He exists and flee from Him.

Then don't criticize us if we don't take the Bible as inerrant.
I am pointing out that Baha'i do not believe His words recorded for us. These appear only in the Bible. The Quran records none of His words but just mentions Jeshua. So no the Baha'i reject the most basic points of His gospel. It is one thing to not hold the Bible as inerrant, but another to reject all the most basic parts of the teachings of Jeshua and yet claim to believe Him....to do that one has to take a butcher knife to the New Testament, the very words of Jesus recorded therein and the testimony of all the apostles therein.

And i also believe in the integrity of scripture.
If it is the "Holy Quran." You are sounding like Pres Obama to me who criticizes the Bible and calls the Quran holy. I can go into the Quran's many faults, but that is not the point of this thread.

uh, no. you had showed us disagreeing with what others had to say about Christ.

Uh yes, also His own words - for example His words that He had hands and feet after His resurrection - not as a spirit. His own words that He is the Son of God, etc.

So do we.[but],

he didn't say anything about being physically resurrected.
While I do not wish to misrepresent your beliefs, this is simply untrue. He said several times in different ways He would rise again after dying. He said He had to raise up "this tabernacle" etc. He said he would be resurrected, and physically appeared to His disciples to prove He was physically resurrected.

Really? i thought mormons believed the heavenly Father had lots of kids.
While He is the "Father of spirits" and there were other "sons of God" Jesus was the only begotten Son - in other words the only one with the birth right of inheritance.

huh? you do realize that Baha'u'llah means the Glory of God?
But you rely upon the Quran, and it claims Allah does not share his glory and has no Son.

how do we get from there to atonement? That keeps popping up in the most irrelevant places. if you want to talk about what Baha'is believe about atonement feel free to start a new thread on the subject. i'm guessing you haven't the foggiest idea what we believe on this subject yet you keep insisting we deny it.
I don't believe I have talked about it much, but suffice it to say that Baha'is do not believe in the atonement as I understand it. The atonement is quite far reaching and gets into the oracles of God, which Baha'i clearly do not understand. However, I hold this to be true of "Christians" as well so try not to be offended. I will constantly talk about aspects of the atonement, so if you bear with me, you should eventually begin to understand my POV.
 
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Robban

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We all have a story, our own story.
The theme of the thread is "Resurrection"
Who,s ressurection does not give me any peace of mind,

What does it help me if hundreds, thousands, millions say they believe in a ressurection from te dead?

Question is, Do I Believe in a ressurection.

To take a leaf out of the NT so to say,
Somewhere it says,

Jesus asked his disciples, "Who do people say I am?"
They answered, "Some say this, some say that."
Jesus then asked them, "Who do you say I am?"
Could be it is not correct word for Word, but was not thinking so much about
who Jesus was/is but more about ressurection.

As far back as I can remember I felt I could not settle for less than there would be a ressurection of some sort.

When very young after the war I could lay down in the grass and look up into the sky and try to see where it all ended, I could not see any bounderies, then I would think, if there were boundaries, what was beyond them?
And on and on.
All the many many I have known have gone, Where?

My belief is, they have not gone anywhere, they are still here.

If sleep is one sixtieth of death,
What then what is death?

Someone once said, "The fear of death is worse than death itself."

In any case, it was solved one day, would like to think it was Divine inspiration,
 
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