What would it take for non-RC Christians to join the RCC?

Open Heart · Jul 18, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
4. The eucharist. The understanding of the eucharist has vacillated over time. It was not all that long ago that Catholics believed in genuine transubstantiation where the bread was transformed into actual, physical flesh and the wing was transformed into actual, physical blood. At present, the doctrine eliminates the physical aspect of the transformation, but retains the belief in the spiritual transformation.

You are QUITE mistaken if you think Catholic teaching no longer supports transubstantion as the literal body and blood of Christ. It is not "spiritual."

concretecamper · Jul 18, 2015

Open Heart said:
You are QUITE mistaken if you think Catholic teaching no longer supports transubstantion as the literal body and blood of Christ. It is not "spiritual."

Unfortunately he lies about the RCC. Seems to me he and our Anglican friend have a competition on who can lie about the RCC more. Awesome reputation to have, isn't it.

pdudgeon · Jul 18, 2015

What would it take for non-RCC Christians to join the RCC?

Courage.

Open Heart · Jul 18, 2015

pdudgeon said:
What would it take for non-RCC Christians to join the RCC?

Courage.

Pray for it.

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2015

concretecamper said:
Unfortunately he lies about the RCC. Seems to me he and our Anglican friend have a competition on who can lie about the RCC more. Awesome reputation to have, isn't it.

That is rather strong language isn't it? Calling me a liar. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Now, if you would kindly provide evidence that the bread and wine used in the last mass you attended became physically verifiable flesh and blood I will agree that the traditional doctrine of Catholic transubstantiation is true. I have been extremely curious for a very long time to know how the DNA of the Son of God differs from our own. A lab test authenticating the physical makeup of the flesh and blood would seal the deal, as it were.

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2015

Open Heart said:
You are QUITE mistaken if you think Catholic teaching no longer supports transubstantion as the literal body and blood of Christ. It is not "spiritual."

Please quote all of the passages in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which state unquivocally that the bread becomes physical flesh and the wine becomes physical blood in the mass and I will gladly repent in dust and ashes.

Open Heart · Jul 18, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
Now, if you would kindly provide evidence that the bread and wine used in the last mass you attended became physically verifiable flesh and blood I will agree that the traditional doctrine of Catholic transubstantiation is true.

John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

bbbbbbb · Jul 18, 2015

Open Heart said:
John 6:55 For my flesh is real food and my blood is real drink.

I know that your reading comprehension leaves much to be desired, but I suggest that you go back and actually read my post and respond to it rather than throwing an out-of-context Bible verse at me. Please note that I did not request a Bible verse.

From you I requested all of the passages in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which state unquivocally that the bread becomes physical flesh and the wine becomes physical blood in the mass.

Thank you.

BobRyan · Jul 18, 2015

LittleLambofJesus said:
Thanks for any responses to the thread title.

What are the "Distinctives" of the RCC?

That would be a starter list.

1. Purgatory
2. Claim to power to confect the body, soul and divinity of Christ
3. Marology - prayers to Mary
4. Prayers to the dead
5. The use of images in prayer
6. infant baptism (not necessarily unique to the RCC)
7. Declaring ecumenical councils to be infallible - such as the extermination decrees in Lateran IV. Treatment of so-called heretics
8. Papal infallibility - given that even the RCC has its own published list of "wicked popes".
9. Apostolic succession - given that multiple papal lines with successors for each - were all active at the same time - and there is no Apostolic succession in the NT - except for the case of Judas.
10. Editing the Ten Commandments. Changing the Lord's Day to week day 1
11. Use of Apocrypha as a Bible
12. Belief in evolutionism (Not a distinctive)
13. Rejection of Sola Scriptura testing of all doctrine and practice
14. Celebate priesthood
15. Earthly sacred Priesthood - vs profane laity idea
16. immortal soul (not a distinctive)
17. infinite torture - infinite hell (not a distinctive)
18. Doctrine of Discovery
19. Promotion of Church-State unions.

However there are somethings I like about the RCC as well -- but these are not distinctives.
1. Free will
2. rejection of OSAS
3. Acceptance of the TEN Commandments as included in the moral law of God

Open Heart · Jul 18, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
Please quote all of the passages in the Catechism of the Catholic Church which state unquivocally that the bread becomes physical flesh and the wine becomes physical blood in the mass and I will gladly repent in dust and ashes.

1374 The mode of Christ's presence under the Eucharistic species is unique. It raises the Eucharist above all the sacraments as "the perfection of the spiritual life and the end to which all the sacraments tend."201In the most blessed sacrament of the Eucharist "the body and blood, together with the soul and divinity, of our Lord Jesus Christ and, therefore, the whole Christ is truly, really, and substantially contained."202 "This presence is called 'real' - by which is not intended to exclude the other types of presence as if they could not be 'real' too, but because it is presence in the fullest sense: that is to say, it is a substantial presence by which Christ, God and man, makes himself wholly and entirely present."203

1375 It is by the conversion of the bread and wine into Christ's body and blood that Christ becomes present in this sacrament. The Church Fathers strongly affirmed the faith of the Church in the efficacy of the Word of Christ and of the action of the Holy Spirit to bring about this conversion. Thus St. John Chrysostom declares:It is not man that causes the things offered to become the Body and Blood of Christ, but he who was crucified for us, Christ himself. The priest, in the role of Christ, pronounces these words, but their power and grace are God's. This is my body, he says. This word transforms the things offered.204 And St. Ambrose says about this conversion:
Be convinced that this is not what nature has formed, but what the blessing has consecrated. The power of the blessing prevails over that of nature, because by the blessing nature itself is changed. . . . Could not Christ's word, which can make from nothing what did not exist, change existing things into what they were not before? It is no less a feat to give things their original nature than to change their nature.205

1376 The Council of Trent summarizes the Catholic faith by declaring: "Because Christ our Redeemer said that it was truly his body that he was offering under the species of bread, it has always been the conviction of the Church of God, and this holy Council now declares again, that by the consecration of the bread and wine there takes place a change of the whole substance of the bread into the substance of the body of Christ our Lord and of the whole substance of the wine into the substance of his blood. This change the holy Catholic Church has fittingly and properly called transubstantiation."206

1381 "That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that 'cannot be apprehended by the senses,' says St. Thomas, 'but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.' For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 ('This is my body which is given for you.'), St. Cyril says: 'Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'"212

Open Heart · Jul 18, 2015

Further testimony from the Vatican that Catholics STILL believe the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ: http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium.html
MYSTERIUM FIDEI

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE HOLY EUCHARIST

SEPTEMBER 3, 1965

To these words of St. Ignatius, we may well add those which Theodore of Mopsuestia, who is a faithful witness to the faith of the Church on this point, addressed to the people: "The Lord did not say: This is symbol of my body, and this is a symbol of my blood, but rather: This is my body and my blood. He teaches us not to look to the nature of what lies before us and is perceived by the senses, because the giving of thanks and the words spoken over it have changed it into flesh and blood."

To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51) As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new "reality" which we can rightly call ontological. For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His physical "reality," corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.

"I believe in my heart and openly profess that the bread and wine that are placed on the altar are, through the mystery of the sacred prayer and the words of the Redeemer, substantially changed into the true and proper and lifegiving flesh and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, and that after the consecration they are the true body of Christ

St. Augustine says: "It was in His flesh that Christ walked among us and it is His flesh that He has given us to eat for our salvation

concretecamper · Jul 19, 2015

bbbbbbb said:
That is rather strong language isn't it? Calling me a liar. Tsk, tsk, tsk.

Now, if you would kindly provide evidence that the bread and wine used in the last mass you attended became physically verifiable flesh and blood I will agree that the traditional doctrine of Catholic transubstantiation is true. I have been extremely curious for a very long time to know how the DNA of the Son of God differs from our own. A lab test authenticating the physical makeup of the flesh and blood would seal the deal, as it were.

Just calling a spade a spade.

Your lie is not that you do not believe transubstantion. Your lie is that you knowingly falsely claim the RCC has changed its teaching about the eucharist along with other doctrines you listed. You can now feel free to offer evidence to clear you reputation.....I'll wait and wait and wait.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

samcarternx · Jul 19, 2015

The real question is not what it would take for the saints to join the rcc, but rather what would it take for the rcc to join the saints.

concretecamper · Jul 19, 2015

samcarternx said:
The real question is not what it would take for the saints to join the rcc, but rather what would it take for the rcc to join the saints.

They already are.

samcarternx · Jul 19, 2015

concretecamper said:
They already are.

No, apparently one is not born a saint, but must come up with two miracles ??? and be voted a saint???

concretecamper · Jul 19, 2015

samcarternx said:
No, apparently one is not born a saint, but must come up with two miracles ??? and be voted a saint???

That wasn't your first question, was it now. If you meant to ask about canonization you should have.

Albion · Jul 19, 2015

samcarternx said:
No, apparently one is not born a saint, but must come up with two miracles ??? and be voted a saint???

Unless you're already pretty popular--like John Paul II. Then you'll be deemed a saint almost from the moment of your death, in the absence of any of those miracles that are supposedly required, and the miracles will be reduced in number and hurried up.

Rick Otto · Jul 19, 2015

Open Heart said:
Further testimony from the Vatican that Catholics STILL believe the Eucharist is the literal body and blood of Christ: http://w2.vatican.va/content/paul-vi/en/encyclicals/documents/hf_p-vi_enc_03091965_mysterium.html
MYSTERIUM FIDEI

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE PAUL VI
ON THE HOLY EUCHARIST

SEPTEMBER 3, 1965

To these words of St. Ignatius, we may well add those which Theodore of Mopsuestia, who is a faithful witness to the faith of the Church on this point, addressed to the people: "The Lord did not say: This is symbol of my body, and this is a symbol of my blood, but rather: This is my body and my blood. He teaches us not to look to the nature of what lies before us and is perceived by the senses, because the giving of thanks and the words spoken over it have changed it into flesh and blood."

To avoid any misunderstanding of this type of presence, which goes beyond the laws of nature and constitutes the greatest miracle of its kind, (50) we have to listen with docility to the voice of the teaching and praying Church. Her voice, which constantly echoes the voice of Christ, assures us that the way in which Christ becomes present in this Sacrament is through the conversion of the whole substance of the bread into His body and of the whole substance of the wine into His blood, a unique and truly wonderful conversion that the Catholic Church fittingly and properly calls transubstantiation. (51) As a result of transubstantiation, the species of bread and wine undoubtedly take on a new signification and a new finality, for they are no longer ordinary bread and wine but instead a sign of something sacred and a sign of spiritual food; but they take on this new signification, this new finality, precisely because they contain a new "reality" which we can rightly call ontological. For what now lies beneath the aforementioned species is not what was there before, but something completely different; and not just in the estimation of Church belief but in reality, since once the substance or nature of the bread and wine has been changed into the body and blood of Christ, nothing remains of the bread and the wine except for the species—beneath which Christ is present whole and entire in His physical "reality," corporeally present, although not in the manner in which bodies are in a place.

"I believe in my heart and openly profess that the bread and wine that are placed on the altar are, through the mystery of the sacred prayer and the words of the Redeemer, substantially changed into the true and proper and lifegiving flesh and blood of Jesus Christ our Lord, and that after the consecration they are the true body of Christ

St. Augustine says: "It was in His flesh that Christ walked among us and it is His flesh that He has given us to eat for our salvation

It never ceases to amaze me how otherwise perfectly sane people remain incapable of discerning between the literal and the figurative in this one instance.
"Mystery" at this point sounds like a euphemism for willfull ignorance to protect group cohesion.

concretecamper · Jul 19, 2015

Rick Otto said:
"Mystery" at this point sounds like a euphemism for willfull ignorance to protect group cohesion.

Then leave....oh wait, you did! So much for "to protect group cohesion". Too funny

What would it take for non-RC Christians to join the RCC?

Well-Known Member

Member of His Church

Traditional Catholic

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Junior Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Member of His Church

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

saint

Member of His Church

saint

Member of His Church

Facilitator

The Dude Abides

Member of His Church

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