Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
No.
The Acts 1:11 "Like Manner" coming fulfilled in Acts 7 is wholly separate and distinct from the Thief's Judgement coming, which is not at all "in like manner" as the Ascension.
 
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
There is only one "coming of Christ as a thief" prophesied in Scripture, and the Glorified Jesus, from heaven PROMISED real air breathing blood pumping Christians alive at the First century Church of Sardis that it would befall THEM, at an Hour they would not expect.

You got the wrong century parousia70. In Hosea, 2 days = 2000 years.

2 Peter 3:8 NKJV
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 NLT
For you, a thousand years are as a passing day, as brief as a few night hours.

Hosea 6:1-3 NKJV
1 Come, and let us return to the Lord;
For He has torn, but He will heal us;
He has stricken, but He will bind us up.
2 After two days He will revive us;
On the third day He will raise us up,
That we may live in His sight.

3 Let us know,
Let us pursue the knowledge of the Lord.
His going forth is established as the morning;
He will come to us like the rain,
Like the latter and former rain to the earth.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
No.
The Acts 1:11 "Like Manner" coming fulfilled in Acts 7 is wholly separate and distinct from the Thief's Judgement coming, which is not at all "in like manner" as the Ascension.

So what do you think the symbol of the thief means?

Knowing that the author used to it specifically to mean something, so what is that something..........
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
A literal reading of Rev. 1:19 causes one to understand the text differently than you've expressed.

Notice the context of the Revealetion with regard to the timing of the events:
Revelation 1:1,3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

John was told to write of the past, present, and the near (not distant) future:
Revelation 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things(YLT)

He informed the church at Philadelphia of the following promises relevant to them:
Revelation 3:10,11 'Because thou [first century Philadelphians] didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee [first century Philadelphians] from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast that which thou [first century Philadelphians] hast, that no one may receive thy [first century Philadelphians] crown.(YLT)

We must keep the principle of Audience Relevance in mind while attempting to interpret the text.

I believe the context of the Revelation demands that John wrote prior to the judgment of the harlot, mystery Babylon/Old Covenant Israel, and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The context certainly does NOT fit the period of time shortly after AD 100! In my opinion, the late date theory is lacking based on the internal evidence within the insired text.

What must shortly take place that is contained in the letters to the seven churches?

The time is near, near for what?

I come quickly, in what context? Is this a figure of speech, like:
  • I came, I saw, I conquered - Julius Caesar

Does Jesus use a figure of speech to remind the believers to hold onto faith or else?

Rev 3:11
'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


The phrase I come quickly is a figure of speech alluding to the believers within that church to stay faithful to the cause, otherwise their election (crown) will be taken away from them. It therefore is a solemn indirect threat to hold fast to faith, failure to do so will mean loosing your salvation (crown). Therefore the one doing the taking is man who deceives man and not as a direct judgment from God as implied by Preterists.

It has absolutely nothing to do with an event in time like 70AD. The expression is the same as the way parents used to tell their children be good until Christmas so that Santa will see that you are good and will bring you gifts.

In relation to Christ coming quickly; this is a rallying call to the seven churches to stay faithful within the context of receiving good tidings, whereas those who have fallen away from the faith will NOT have any good tidings and therefore become a fruitless church/branch.

Time is near is also a figure of speech to allude to a sense of urgency for the church to change its ways otherwise it risks loosing its election (crown).

What must shortly take place written in the letters, is another formal way of saying to take this letter seriously, because after the recipient receives it, they are now obligated to immediately comply with its instructions, therefore ignorance will no longer be an excuse.

These letters were written because John saw the churches were back sliding and he needed to give them a wake up call, as the churchs regarded John as the patriarch of the Christian faith.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
What must shortly take place that is contained in the letters to the seven churches?

The time is near, near for what?

I come quickly, in what context? Is this a figure of speech, like:
  • I came, I saw, I conquered - Julius Caesar

Does Jesus use a figure of speech to remind the believers to hold onto faith or else?

Rev 3:11
'I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown.


The phrase I come quickly is a figure of speech alluding to the believers within that church to stay faithful to the cause, otherwise their election (crown) will be taken away from them. It therefore is a solemn indirect threat to hold fast to faith, failure to do so will mean loosing your salvation (crown). Therefore the one doing the taking is man who deceives man and not as a direct judgment from God as implied by Preterists.

It has absolutely nothing to do with an event in time like 70AD. The expression is the same as the way parents used to tell their children be good until Christmas so that Santa will see that you are good and will bring you gifts.

In relation to Christ coming quickly; this is a rallying call to the seven churches to stay faithful within the context of receiving good tidings, whereas those who have fallen away from the faith will NOT have any good tidings and therefore become a fruitless church/branch.

Time is near is also a figure of speech to allude to a sense of urgency for the church to change its ways otherwise it risks loosing its election (crown).

What must shortly take place written in the letters, is another formal way of saying to take this letter seriously, because after the recipient receives it, they are now obligated to immediately comply with its instructions, therefore ignorance will no longer be an excuse.

These letters were written because John saw the churches were back sliding and he needed to give them a wake up call, as the churchs regarded John as the patriarch of the Christian faith.

Since your opinion doesn't seem to come from the text it's simply speculation. We know from the text that John informed his first century audiences that the events of the Revelation MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE (Rev. 1:1; 22:6)...FOR THE TIME IS NEAR (v. 1:3; 22:10). And we know that God told him to write concerning things that were past, present, and in the near future...ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE (v. 1:19; 3:10). If we are pursuing truth we must rely on the text as our standard.
 
Upvote 0

A New World

Member
May 21, 2014
455
82
CA
✟8,451.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
"We must keep the principle of Audience Relevance in mind while attempting to interpret the text."


The Lord's prophets tell of far distant events that were not directed to the immediate audience for experience at all

So it looks like your theory of "audience relevance" is bogus

Explain

Please provide Scripture references from any of the New Testament writers that tell of far distant events not directed to their stated audiences.

Are there any statements like, "The end of all things will occur many years from now?"

Or, "Another generation of people will witness the end?"

Peter wrote: "The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (1 Pet. 4:7)

Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mt. 24:34)

I can list many time statements given to first century audiences that explicitly state that the time of the end was about to be, or that it was near, shortly, or soon.

I haven't come across ANY that state the time of the end was in their distant future.

The theory must be rejected that says the multiple time statements of the New Testament were completely irrelevant to the audiences identified by the writers.
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Since your opinion doesn't seem to come from the text it's simply speculation. We know from the text that John informed his first century audiences that the events of the Revelation MUST SHORTLY TAKE PLACE (Rev. 1:1; 22:6)...FOR THE TIME IS NEAR (v. 1:3; 22:10). And we know that God told him to write concerning things that were past, present, and in the near future...ABOUT TO TAKE PLACE (v. 1:19; 3:10). If we are pursuing truth we must rely on the text as our standard.

Is it not true that the context is contained within the same sentence.
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Please provide Scripture references from any of the New Testament writers that tell of far distant events not directed to their stated audiences.

Are there any statements like, "The end of all things will occur many years from now?"

Or, "Another generation of people will witness the end?"

Peter wrote: "The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer." (1 Pet. 4:7)

Jesus said: "Truly I say to you, this generation will not pass away until all these things take place." (Mt. 24:34)

I can list many time statements given to first century audiences that explicitly state that the time of the end was about to be, or that it was near, shortly, or soon.

I haven't come across ANY that state the time of the end was in their distant future.

The theory must be rejected that says the multiple time statements of the New Testament were completely irrelevant to the audiences identified by the writers.

When were they fulfilled?

At the cross.
 
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
John is presented with a revived beast that is mysterious to him. The Angel had to reveal to John what he did not know about the beast. John not being familiar about the revived beast and harlot is a sure indication that those two players didn't exist at the time he was writing his Revelation.
Either way it highlights future events with two players who did not exist pre 70 or even post 70AD.
The fact that the second beast is Christ like who revives the image of the defeated first beast points to a Christian religion in the future.
Did John know the revived beast?
No, so how can he invent dates in the future regarding a beast that is a complete mystery to him.

Rev 17:6
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Preterists use the following verse to support their claim of Christ coming not personally but spiritually in terms of JUDGEMENT in 70AD.

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;


What are these things which shall be here and after?

John is given a list of the things that he must give in instructions to the seven churches.

So what are these THINGS or instructions passed down to the seven churches:

They are warnings, followed by weaknesses and instructions to what the seven churches need to do, to change their ways, in order to be still favoured by the Lord.

The things that need to come to pass in other words the church needs to change her ways, in order to be faithful to the Lord and to not loss her crown/election.

It is quite fascinating that this proclamation of the things that need to change within the seven churches is followed chronologically by a unique message to every church. This would be the context of the THINGS that must change in the seven churches from the point of receiving the message to after from this very moment the message is sent to you. This is not speaking prophetically of the things that happen in 70AD. This is post 70AD when John was a captive on a Roman prison colony on the island of Patmos. This could even be around the end of John's life around 100 AD.

What follows Rev 1:19 must be the context to the things which be here and after, meaning a change from now on to each and every church. This letter of things needing to change immediately is the disciplinary statement from the oldest and most respected apostle:

For example..............

Revelation 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;


So what things need to change for the church of Ephesus, in the here and after, within the context of the message to the church of Ephesus:

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.


So the Lord puts an emphasis of urgency by saying look I come quickly to take away your crown/election, therefore change your ways immediately, as I am pointing to you the THINGS I have AGAINST YOU, so you better change your ways immediately or else.

I come quickly doesn't mean he is coming in 70AD, he is just saying I am coming against you and your ways from a spiritual warning context, therefore heed the warning and change your ways for these things I have against you.

Then from the context of Rev 1:19 the warnings and instructions of the THINGS is addressing the seven churches, by telling them to change their ways and the things they need to change in the here and after, otherwise the Lord is coming quickly, meaning against them. This message is deliberately emphasising a sense of heightened urgency on their part to change their ways quickly and immediately before the Lord discards their election.

I come quickly is in context to the warning message to the church and nothing to do with the end of the old covenant age that happened when the temple veil was torn into two pieces to signify the end of the old and in with the new.

Whenever reading a verse follow the context in the versus proceeding it and the truth shall set you free.

God bless
You are creating your own scenario and solution, so I see nothing here that makes any sense to me.

The phrase "coming quickly" had nothing to do with the 7 churches or 70ad. It had to do with Christ inheriting and possessing the heavenly kingdom. If it had anything to do with the 7 churches or 70ad, we wouldn't be here right now.

The key to understanding Daniel, Revelation, and end times prophecy is understanding the "horns" in Daniel and Revelation representing kings and not kingdoms. The ram with the two horns represented Cyrus and Darius. The goat's great horn represented Alexander the Great. The 4 horns that came up with the little horn all represented the Greek kings of Alexander's broken up kingdom, his kingdom divided between his 4 generals, 4 kingdoms ruled by one of his 4 generals each made king. These are Daniel's beast 2 and 3 kingdoms in Dan 7.

Daniel's 4th beast with the 10 horns is Rome; the 10 horns are Rome's 1st ten kings/emperors. These are the same horns/kings on Revelation's 1st beast.

The 4th beast in Dan 7's 11th horn is Revelation's 2nd beast, and Dan's 5th kingdom of iron and clay feet. This is how I know Christ inherited his heavenly kingdom in 98ad, when the scriptural 11th Roman emperor died shortening the days of the "tribulation."

It's as easy as ABC.

"Look I come quickly" and "to WATCH" are parables. Christ didn't come spiritually in 70ad. You're making it up.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
You are creating your own scenario and solution, so I see nothing here that makes any sense to me.

The phrase "coming quickly" had nothing to do with the 7 churches or 70ad. It had to do with Christ inheriting and possessing the heavenly kingdom. If it had anything to do with the 7 churches or 70ad, we wouldn't be here right now.

The key to understanding Daniel, Revelation, and end times prophecy is understanding the "horns" in Daniel and Revelation representing kings and not kingdoms. The ram with the two horns represented Cyrus and Darius. The goat's great horn represented Alexander the Great. And the 4 horns that came up with the little horn all represented the Greek kings of Alexander's broken up kingdom, his kingdom divided between his 4 generals, 4 kingdoms ruled by one of his 4 generals each made king. These are Daniel's beast 2 and 3 kingdoms in Dan 7.

Daniel's 4th beast with the 10 horns is Rome; the 10 horns are Rome's 1st ten kings/emperors. These are the same horns/kings on Revelation's 1st beast.

Dan 7's 4th beast's 11th horn is Revelation's 2nd beast and Dan's 5th kingdom of iron and clay feet. This is how I know Christ inherited his heavenly kingdom in 98ad, when the scriptural 11th Roman emperor died, shortening the days of the "tribulation."

It's as easy as ABC.

"Look I come quickly" and "to WATCH" are parables. Christ didn't come spiritually in 70ad. You're making it up.

Well presented at first glance, but the second is not a sectarian ruler, it is a Christ/lamb religious entity which gives life to the revived first beast image. The revived first beast and harlot with daughters was a complete mystery to John because he was not familiar with them because they are future, a mystery beyond John's comprehension, that is why the angel spelled it out for him. The ten kings that have no kingdom that receive power with the revived first beast Christian enterprise for a little while are ten religious heads who support the harlot who has many daughters.

No I am not into 70AD and no I did not say Jesus comes spirituality. I believe Jesus has been coming literally for all the departed souls fro Saint Stephan until the last good tasting wine before the end of the harvest.
 
Upvote 0

Straightshot

Member
Feb 13, 2015
4,742
295
56
✟16,234.00
Faith
Christian
"Please provide Scripture references from any of the New Testament writers that tell of far distant events not directed to their stated audiences."


Here is just one .... there are many [2 Peter 3]

And the Bible is one book OT and NT .... not just the NT

You throw away the gut and foundation of the scriptures as if the OT was a relic with no significance today

I see what you are doing .... how pathetic

And I have to tell you that the Author and Finisher is the Lord Himself

Be careful what you do with your theology [Revelation 22:18-18]

Don't second guess Him .... He is watching you
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others


2 Peter 3:8 NKJV
But, beloved, do not forget this one thing, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.

Psalms 90:4 NLT
For you, a thousand years are as a passing day, as brief as a few night hours.

Above, Peter says 1000 Earth Years is as one Day to the Lord, AND 1 Earth Day is as 1000 years to the Lord.
Both are true, so lets move on to the Psalmist..

The Psalmist Says 1000 earth years is as one Day to the Lord, and 1000 earth years is as "a few nighttime Hours" to the lord..

Lets do the math that shows how 1000 years = a few nightime hours in the Hosea prophesy:

There are at least 2 periods of "a few nighttime hours" in a night, possibly more, but we'll stick with 2.
So for every single Night to the Lord, at least 2000 years on earth goes by... add that to the 1000 years that goes by for every DAY to the Lord, then in a 24 hour "God Day/Night", 3000 earth years goes by.

So, when we apply this 100% Scriptural math to Hosea, we aren't even past Day 1.
2 days = 2000 years.
Rather, 1 Day + 1 Night = 3000 years
 
Upvote 0

parousia70

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow
Supporter
Feb 24, 2002
15,533
4,826
57
Oregon
✟794,018.00
Country
United States
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
"We must keep the principle of Audience Relevance in mind while attempting to interpret the text."


The Lord's prophets tell of far distant events that were not directed to the immediate audience for experience at all

So it looks like your theory of "audience relevance" is bogus

Explain

You have our Lord deliberately misleading at best, and outright lying at worst, to His original audience.
Telling them they would witness things that He knew they would not.

Such must be rejected by the honest Bible expositor.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

precepts

Newbie
Aug 20, 2008
3,094
135
55
United States Virgin Islands
✟24,096.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Single
Well presented at first glance, but the second is not a sectarian ruler, it is a Christ/lamb religious entity which gives life to the revived first beast image.
Where does it say that in scripture? Nowhere. You are speculating. Let scripture interpret scripture.

Dan 7:17 proves the beasts are kings, as well as the verses I posted proving the horns are kings/men.


robycop3;6945670 said:
The revived first beast and harlot with daughters was a complete mystery to John because he was not familiar with them because they are future, a mystery beyond John's comprehension, that is why the angel spelled it out for him.
You are creating your own narrative. Dan 7:17's 4th beast king was the 1st Roman emperor. There's no way you can deny that unless you willfully choose to.

robycop3;6945670 said:
The ten kings that have no kingdom that receive power with the revived first beast Christian enterprise for a little while are ten religious heads who support the harlot who has many daughters.
Again with the narrative. The 10 horns are kings, both Dan and Rev specifically says so.

Your stumbling block is that these kings/men are fallen angels. They fight and attack the heavenly Shalem where they were first cast out from.

robycop3;6945670 said:
No I am not into 70AD and no I did not say Jesus comes spirituality.
I never said you were in 70ad, and you did say Christ came spiritually.

robycop3;6945670 said:
I believe Jesus has been coming literally for all the departed souls fro Saint Stephan until the last good tasting wine before the end of the harvest.
Christ inherited his heavenly kingdom in 98ad as prophecied both in Daniel and in Revelation.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Berean777
Upvote 0

Matthew Twentyfour

Take up your cross daily, and follow Me. Luke 9:23
Jan 19, 2015
560
96
✟8,141.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
Above, Peter says 1000 Earth Years is as one Day to the Lord, AND 1 Earth Day is as 1000 years to the Lord.
Both are true, so lets move on to the Psalmist..

The Psalmist Says 1000 earth years is as one Day to the Lord, and 1000 earth years is as "a few nighttime Hours" to the lord..

Lets do the math that shows how 1000 years = a few nightime hours in the Hosea prophesy:

There are at least 2 periods of "a few nighttime hours" in a night, possibly more, but we'll stick with 2.
So for every single Night to the Lord, at least 2000 years on earth goes by... add that to the 1000 years that goes by for every DAY to the Lord, then in a 24 hour "God Day/Night", 3000 earth years goes by.

So, when we apply this 100% Scriptural math to Hosea, we aren't even past Day 1.

Rather, 1 Day + 1 Night = 3000 years

I agree. The prophecies are still future. Nothing significant happened in the first century. All the gibberish about 70 AD is merely a big can of worms with no merit. Nice job exposing the faulty teachings of preterism.
 
Upvote 0

Straightshot

Member
Feb 13, 2015
4,742
295
56
✟16,234.00
Faith
Christian
My comment

Yes

The preterism seeks to destroy the unfulfilled portion of Lord's prophetic word .... which cannot be done .... and in the process they expose themselves and are easily refuted

Example:

The 1000 years simply means that the Lord's time is infinite compared to man's measurement of time

Used in the explanation of why He still waits .... this part the preterist ignores [2 Peter 3:9]

Sometimes it is so obvious that it is laughable
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Berean777

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.
Feb 12, 2014
3,283
586
✟14,509.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Private
Where does it say that in scripture? Nowhere. You are speculating. Let scripture interpret scripture.

Dan 7:17 proves the beasts are kings, as well as the verses I posted proving the horns are kings/men.


You are creating your own narrative. Dan 7:17's 4th beast king was the 1st Roman emperor. There's no way you can deny that unless you willfully choose to.

Again with the narrative. The 10 horns are kings, both Dan and Rev specifically says so.

Your stumbling block is that these kings/men are fallen angels. They fight and attack the heavenly Shalem where they were first cast out from.

What has Dan 7:17 to do with Rev. I see many flaws in the comparisons of the ten kings and why would God be concerned about a 1st Roman Emperor.

I like your effort this far but it has an error. Can you spot it?

I will give you a clue:

The symbol of the lamb is one which is likened to being Christ like. The second beast who gives life to the revived first beast that was and is not and yet is again, has been resurrected image wise by a Christian religious system comprising of the ten kings who have yet to recieve an earthly kingdom.
The mistake that you make is failure to recognize the ascension of Christ in Daniel fulfills the old testament kingdoms whilst the Revelation of John referenced to Christ's ascension fulfills the new covenant beast. The beast of Daniel is not the beast of John, however they both reference the same symbolism and the ascension of Christ when he was brought before the ancient of days and given a Kingdom that shall not be destroyed. This kingdom happened when the heavenly court consisting of the 24 elderly kingly judges sat with Christ. The court was in session.
We have same symbols portraying different beasts. The numbers mean the same but the players are different in time.
 
Upvote 0