Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

Berean777 · Jun 30, 2015

Preterists use the following verse to support their claim of Christ coming not personally but spiritually in terms of JUDGEMENT in 70AD.

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

What are these things which shall be here and after?

John is given a list of the things that he must give in instructions to the seven churches.

So what are these THINGS or instructions passed down to the seven churches:

They are warnings, followed by weaknesses and instructions to what the seven churches need to do, to change their ways, in order to be still favoured by the Lord.

The things that need to come to pass in other words the church needs to change her ways, in order to be faithful to the Lord and to not loss her crown/election.

It is quite fascinating that this proclamation of the things that need to change within the seven churches is followed chronologically by a unique message to every church. This would be the context of the THINGS that must change in the seven churches from the point of receiving the message to after from this very moment the message is sent to you. This is not speaking prophetically of the things that happen in 70AD. This is post 70AD when John was a captive on a Roman prison colony on the island of Patmos. This could even be around the end of John's life around 100 AD.

What follows Rev 1:19 must be the context to the things which be here and after, meaning a change from now on to each and every church. This letter of things needing to change immediately is the disciplinary statement from the oldest and most respected apostle:

For example..............

Revelation 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

So what things need to change for the church of Ephesus, in the here and after, within the context of the message to the church of Ephesus:

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

So the Lord puts an emphasis of urgency by saying look I come quickly to take away your crown/election, therefore change your ways immediately, as I am pointing to you the THINGS I have AGAINST YOU, so you better change your ways immediately or else.

I come quickly doesn't mean he is coming in 70AD, he is just saying I am coming against you and your ways from a spiritual warning context, therefore heed the warning and change your ways for these things I have against you.

Then from the context of Rev 1:19 the warnings and instructions of the THINGS is addressing the seven churches, by telling them to change their ways and the things they need to change in the here and after, otherwise the Lord is coming quickly, meaning against them. This message is deliberately emphasising a sense of heightened urgency on their part to change their ways quickly and immediately before the Lord discards their election.

I come quickly is in context to the warning message to the church and nothing to do with the end of the old covenant age that happened when the temple veil was torn into two pieces to signify the end of the old and in with the new.

Whenever reading a verse follow the context in the versus proceeding it and the truth shall set you free.

God bless

Interplanner · Jun 30, 2015

It would be best not to use the term preterist. I'm not. A few things may be the same. I think you are referrring to full preterist without realizing that they aren't allowed anyway. Partial simply means you believe certain things were fulfilled in 70, which I have heard futurists agree to.

Berean777 · Jun 30, 2015

I understand but the statement I COME QUICKLY seems to be the main line of argument used by full preterists and partial preterists who point to 70AD as the passing of the old covenant age.

However scripture tells us that I come quickly in John's revelation is not pointing to the end of the old covenant age come 70AD, but rather is in context to addressing the back sliding seven churches who are recipients of the warning message I come quickly.

Old Covenant ended at the cross and not 70AD. This is the point of the post.

Interplanner · Jun 30, 2015

No Hebrews says it was fading even then (late 50s, early 60s), or disappearing. In theory, it ended at the Gospel, true. But if a person in Judaism didn't know, then...

Berean777 · Jul 1, 2015

Interplanner said:
No Hebrews says it was fading even then (late 50s, early 60s), or disappearing. In theory, it ended at the Gospel, true. But if a person in Judaism didn't know, then...

It is not about what Judaism thought or discerned at the time. Jesus told them up front if you do not say blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord then your house will be left onto you desolate.

The Jews needed not discern anything, but to only heed the warning from Jesus. The human argument that the old covenant slowly faded is false. Old covenant was abruptly ended and ripped apart by the tearing of the temple curtains in two, coupled by the earthquake in that very same hour, AFTER Jesus said it is finished. Certainly in those very words by our Lord when he said it is finished, the old covenant at that very moment was finished and the curse was immediately lifted.

If the old covenant slowly faded as you presume, then also the curse was slowly fading 20-30 years after the bail bond was fully paid on the cross at Calvary. This presumption is completely in error, because the curse was immediately lifted when Christ said it is finished. Therefore with the curses that came with the old covenant mosaic law been lifted brought about the immediate closer of the old covenant and ushered in the new covenant age.

This is where I have proven that full preterists and partial preterists are wrong on this very, very basic principle that Christainity is built upon.

Therefore..............

Luke 16:10
"If you are faithful in little things, you will be faithful in large ones. But if you are dishonest in little things, you won't be honest with greater responsibilities

JM · Jul 15, 2015

The old covenant is gone folks. Judaism without a Temple and Sacrifices isn’t Judaism. It’s a pagan religion that rejects Jesus Christ.

Straightshot · Jul 15, 2015

All future events involving Israel still to come:

[Jeremiah 30; Jeremiah 31:31-37; Ezekiel 36; 38; 39; Daniel 9; Joel 2; 3; Micah 5; Zechariah 12; 13; 14; Matthew 24; Luke 21:20-36; Revelation 12]

And Jerusalem will be "without" a temple of the Lord's at the time [Revelation 11:2] .... still no stone standing of the temple and related buildings today, and there will not be in the coming tribulation during the 70th week decreed for Israel [Matthew 24:1-2]

parousia70 · Jul 15, 2015

Berean777 said:
So the Lord puts an emphasis of urgency by saying look I come quickly to take away your crown/election, therefore change your ways immediately, as I am pointing to you the THINGS I have AGAINST YOU, so you better change your ways immediately or else.

I come quickly doesn't mean he is coming in 70AD, he is just saying I am coming against you and your ways from a spiritual warning context, therefore heed the warning and change your ways for these things I have against you.

Then from the context of Rev 1:19 the warnings and instructions of the THINGS is addressing the seven churches, by telling them to change their ways and the things they need to change in the here and after, otherwise the Lord is coming quickly, meaning against them. This message is deliberately emphasising a sense of heightened urgency on their part to change their ways quickly and immediately before the Lord discards their election.

I come quickly is in context to the warning message to the church and nothing to do with the end of the old covenant age that happened when the temple veil was torn into two pieces to signify the end of the old and in with the new.

Whenever reading a verse follow the context in the versus proceeding it and the truth shall set you free.

God bless

One of your greatest stumbling blocks to this explanation is what Jesus says to the Chruch at Sardis in Revelation 3:3:
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

This is the same thief's coming prophesied here:

1 Thess 5:1-3
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

And Here:
2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

And Here:
Luke 12:38-40
38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

And Here:
Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

And Here:
Revelation 16:15
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

These Verses are ENTIRELY PARALLEL with one another, and can not be interpreted to have separate, distinct meanings as you are proposing.

There is only one "coming of Christ as a thief" prophesied in Scripture, and the Glorified Jesus, from heaven PROMISED real air breathing blood pumping Christians alive at the First century Church of Sardis that it would befall THEM, at an Hour they would not expect.

Berean777 · Jul 15, 2015

parousia70 said:
One of your greatest stumbling blocks to this explanation is what Jesus says to the Chruch at Sardis in Revelation 3:3:
3 Remember therefore how you have received and heard; hold fast and repent. Therefore if you will not watch, I will come upon you as a thief, and you will not know what hour I will come upon you.

This is the same thief's coming prophesied here:

1 Thess 5:1-3
5 But concerning the times and the seasons, brethren, you have no need that I should write to you. 2 For you yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so comes as a thief in the night. 3 For when they say, “Peace and safety!” then sudden destruction comes upon them, as labor pains upon a pregnant woman. And they shall not escape.

And Here:
2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night, in which the heavens will pass away with a great noise, and the elements will melt with fervent heat; both the earth and the works that are in it will be burned up.

And Here:
Luke 12:38-40
38 And if he should come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants. 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into. 40 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.”

And Here:
Matt 24:42-44
42 Watch therefore, for you do not know what hour your Lord is coming. 43 But know this, that if the master of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched and not allowed his house to be broken into.44 Therefore you also be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect.

And Here:
Revelation 16:15
Behold, I am coming as a thief. Blessed is he who watches, and keeps his garments, lest he walk naked and they see his shame.”

These Verses are ENTIRELY PARALLEL with one another, and can not be interpreted to have separate, distinct meanings as you are proposing.

There is only one "coming of Christ as a thief" prophesied in Scripture, and the Glorified Jesus, from heaven PROMISED real air breathing blood pumping Christians alive at the First century Church of Sardis that it would befall THEM, at an Hour they would not expect.

In one word, what do you think the symbol of the thief is?

Straightshot · Jul 15, 2015

My comment

The Lord did not come back in the first century

Revelation
1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

His next intervention has been and still is "at hand"

He has not revealed the dating and even tells that no man can know the dating .... and the preterist does not know either even thought the false claim is made

He will intervene and strike without warning and will quickly bring His unprecedented judgment upon an unexpecting world of unbelief [Matthew 36-39]

The scope and size of scriptural record of the judgments will pale 70AD events

The preteristic rant is not biblical and should be suspect of motive .... of which the primary objective is to protect the preterist's affiliated religion(s)

Because if the biblical account is true, and it is, this obliterates the preterist's false religion

parousia70 · Jul 16, 2015

Straightshot said:
My comment

Revelation
1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

His next intervention has been and still is "at hand"

Then the Phrase "at Hand" has no discernible meaning at all.

parousia70 · Jul 16, 2015

Berean777 said:
In one word, what do you think the symbol of the thief is?

It makes no difference what I thin the symbol of the thief is.
The fact is, There is only one Coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture , and the Glorified Christ, From heaven, PROMISED that thief's coming would befall First century Peoples.

Ours is to accept and Believe Him.

Straightshot · Jul 16, 2015

"Then the Phrase "at Hand" has no discernible meaning at all."

Not for you

Berean777 · Jul 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
It makes no difference what I thin the symbol of the thief is.
The fact is, There is only one Coming of Christ as a thief taught in scripture , and the Glorified Christ, From heaven, PROMISED that thief's coming would befall First century Peoples.

Ours is to accept and Believe Him.

Saint Stephan beheld the Lord's coming when he said:

Acts 7:54-59
5But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Saint Stephan one of the men of Galilee said he saw on two occasions the glorified Lord Jesus standing on the right hand of God. He also calls upon Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. This last sentence actually identifies Lord Jesus as the God who he was calling upon.

Now if we are to properly read the book of Acts we need to read it as sequentially document written events. Therefore what Saint Stephan saw was what he was told he would see in:

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Did Saint Stephan behold the Lord's Appearing. Yes/No?

You can not ignore the meaning of the word thief as it plays in Saint Stephan's testimony in the above versus.

Again please what does the symbol of the thief mean?

Straightshot · Jul 16, 2015

My comment

A thief does not announce his intrusion in advance .... and when he leaves undetected he has taken his gain with him .... he moves quickly and efficiently leaving no evidence of he presence

This is the picture of the Lord's pre-tribulation "harpazo" action to immortalize His true ecclesia [called out ones]

And He can appear and disappear at will on the spot .... move in and out of the material world at will

He will not be seen at His first intrusive action by unbelieving earth dwellers .... neither will He be seen by the same during His next unprecedented judgment upon them, however they will know that they are in it

The He will appear at the end and all of the survivors on the earth will see Him

parousia70 · Jul 16, 2015

I disagree Straight... The context of this thief is not a silent one.... this thief is more like a highway robber - a ransacker... no only does He steal the loot, he trashes the place. It is a violent agressive robbery, leaving destruction and mayhem in His wake.

This is no cat burgler.

parousia70 · Jul 16, 2015

Berean777 said:
Saint Stephan beheld the Lord's coming when he said:

Acts 7:54-59
5But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, 56And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God. 57Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord, 58And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul. 59And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.

Saint Stephan one of the men of Galilee said he saw on two occasions the glorified Lord Jesus standing on the right hand of God. He also calls upon Lord Jesus to receive his spirit. This last sentence actually identifies Lord Jesus as the God who he was calling upon.

Now if we are to properly read the book of Acts we need to read it as sequentially document written events. Therefore what Saint Stephan saw was what he was told he would see in:

Acts 1:9-11
9And when he had spoken these things, while they beheld, he was taken up; and a cloud received him out of their sight. 10And while they looked stedfastly toward heaven as he went up, behold, two men stood by them in white apparel; 11Which also said, Ye men of Galilee, why stand ye gazing up into heaven? this same Jesus, which is taken up from you into heaven, shall so come in like manner as ye have seen him go into heaven.

Did Saint Stephan behold the Lord's Appearing. Yes/No?

Yes. I do believe Acts 7:54-59 Fulfills Acts 1:9-11

Straightshot · Jul 16, 2015

For the forum:

Some do not understand the Lord's composition and purpose .... He is both a Thief for His next intervention .... and the Avenger just after

A New World · Jul 16, 2015

Berean777 said:
Preterists use the following verse to support their claim of Christ coming not personally but spiritually in terms of JUDGEMENT in 70AD.

Revelation 1:19
Write the things which thou hast seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall be hereafter;

What are these things which shall be here and after?

John is given a list of the things that he must give in instructions to the seven churches.

So what are these THINGS or instructions passed down to the seven churches:

They are warnings, followed by weaknesses and instructions to what the seven churches need to do, to change their ways, in order to be still favoured by the Lord.

The things that need to come to pass in other words the church needs to change her ways, in order to be faithful to the Lord and to not loss her crown/election.

It is quite fascinating that this proclamation of the things that need to change within the seven churches is followed chronologically by a unique message to every church. This would be the context of the THINGS that must change in the seven churches from the point of receiving the message to after from this very moment the message is sent to you. This is not speaking prophetically of the things that happen in 70AD. This is post 70AD when John was a captive on a Roman prison colony on the island of Patmos. This could even be around the end of John's life around 100 AD.

What follows Rev 1:19 must be the context to the things which be here and after, meaning a change from now on to each and every church. This letter of things needing to change immediately is the disciplinary statement from the oldest and most respected apostle:

For example..............

Revelation 2:1
Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks;

So what things need to change for the church of Ephesus, in the here and after, within the context of the message to the church of Ephesus:

Revelation 2:4
Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love.

So the Lord puts an emphasis of urgency by saying look I come quickly to take away your crown/election, therefore change your ways immediately, as I am pointing to you the THINGS I have AGAINST YOU, so you better change your ways immediately or else.

I come quickly doesn't mean he is coming in 70AD, he is just saying I am coming against you and your ways from a spiritual warning context, therefore heed the warning and change your ways for these things I have against you.

Then from the context of Rev 1:19 the warnings and instructions of the THINGS is addressing the seven churches, by telling them to change their ways and the things they need to change in the here and after, otherwise the Lord is coming quickly, meaning against them. This message is deliberately emphasising a sense of heightened urgency on their part to change their ways quickly and immediately before the Lord discards their election.

I come quickly is in context to the warning message to the church and nothing to do with the end of the old covenant age that happened when the temple veil was torn into two pieces to signify the end of the old and in with the new.

Whenever reading a verse follow the context in the versus proceeding it and the truth shall set you free.

God bless

A literal reading of Rev. 1:19 causes one to understand the text differently than you've expressed.

Notice the context of the Revealetion with regard to the timing of the events:
Revelation 1:1,3 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show His servants--things which must shortly take place. And He sent and signified it by His angel to His servant John...Blessed is he who reads and those who hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written in it; for the time is near.

John was told to write of the past, present, and the near (not distant) future:
Revelation 1:19 'Write the things that thou hast seen, and the things that are, and the things that are about to come after these things(YLT)

He informed the church at Philadelphia of the following promises relevant to them:
Revelation 3:10,11 'Because thou [first century Philadelphians] didst keep the word of my endurance, I also will keep thee [first century Philadelphians] from the hour of the trial that is about to come upon all the world, to try those dwelling upon the earth. Lo, I come quickly, be holding fast that which thou [first century Philadelphians] hast, that no one may receive thy [first century Philadelphians] crown.(YLT)

We must keep the principle of Audience Relevance in mind while attempting to interpret the text.

I believe the context of the Revelation demands that John wrote prior to the judgment of the harlot, mystery Babylon/Old Covenant Israel, and the destruction of Jerusalem in AD 70. The context certainly does NOT fit the period of time shortly after AD 100! In my opinion, the late date theory is lacking based on the internal evidence within the insired text.

Berean777 · Jul 16, 2015

parousia70 said:
Yes. I do believe Acts 7:54-59 Fulfills Acts 1:9-11

So did the thief come for Saint Stephan?

Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

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