Should Ministers get paid???

LoveofTruth · Jul 15, 2015

To all,

The things that I write are a call for total reformation of the churches worldwide. It is a call for all believers to gather in homes around Christ and wait on him and have a meal together, fellowship, pray worship in the spirit and to let Christ work in the body effectually, in every part.

It is a call for all those who are exalted over the body of Christ to step down from their high place and become one of the elders if they meet the qulaitifcations. It is a call for those who call themselves "the Pastor" over the entire church, to get a job and not rely on the body for support. Unless they are itinerant workers, apostles, and preachers of the gospel, who travel about, and evangelist.

It is a call for all the body to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly and from this word, (which is able to build you up) to minister to one another freely as you have received the gift.

It is a call to come out of all confusion and Babylon, and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect. To come out from under mans false authority over you as Lords, and from mans quenching of the spirit in the body ministry.

It is a call to withdraw from every BROTHER that walketh disorderly and not after Christ and Gods order in the churches.

It is a call for total reformation as hard as it may be

Let all things that can be shaken, so that all we see is the glorious image of Christ.

wandererUK · Jul 15, 2015

Very contentious. All I know is that there are an awful lot of ministers, full-time/part-time Christian workers and 'ministries' all asking for money. Be it radio or tv barely a week goes by without an appeal for thousands or hundreds of thousands to keep the ministry on the air. Then there are those who have other ministries such as christian centres who pay their staff minimum wage but would prefer if they worked for nothing.

I agree that if the church wants full-time pastors etc then they need to be paid for. Tithing is one way of doing this. But when was the last time you heard of or saw church leadership sharing the tithe with the congregants. Isn't that what used to happen in the OT?

AphroditeGoneAwry · Jul 15, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
To all,

The things that I write are a call for total reformation of the churches worldwide. It is a call for all believers to gather in homes around Christ and wait on him and have a meal together, fellowship, pray worship in the spirit and to let Christ work in the body effectually, in every part.

It is a call for all those who are exalted over the body of Christ to step down from their high place and become one of the elders if they meet the qulaitifcations. It is a call for those who call themselves "the Pastor" over the entire church, to get a job and not rely on the body for support. Unless they are itinerant workers, apostles, and preachers of the gospel, who travel about, and evangelist.

It is a call for all the body to let the word of Christ dwell in you richly and from this word, (which is able to build you up) to minister to one another freely as you have received the gift.

It is a call to come out of all confusion and Babylon, and man made traditions that make the word of God of no effect. To come out from under mans false authority over you as Lords, and from mans quenching of the spirit in the body ministry.

It is a call to withdraw from every BROTHER that walketh disorderly and not after Christ and Gods order in the churches.

It is a call for total reformation as hard as it may be

Let all things that can be shaken, so that all we see is the glorious image of Christ.

YES YES YES PRAISE GOD ALMIGHTY.

This is how I want to live every day of the rest of my life. <3

LoveofTruth · Jul 15, 2015

RDKirk said:
Sorry, you're still wrong. First, I said nothing about persecution. That's the straw man you stood up.

They met in homes because large structures were built for specific purposes. Temples were for specific gods, lecture halls belonged to the teachers of specific philosophies, government buildings were for government. If they were fortunate, perhaps someone of substantial wealth became a Christian and offered a large home, but they met in homes because that's all that was available for believers to meet at any time as necessary and desired.

Today, a congregation may, for instance, rent a movie theater or a school for Sunday morning services.

No, you said they were "forced by circumstances to meet in individual homes"

forced does not sound like what you just described. What did you mean they were FORCED to do so?

James Is Back · Jul 15, 2015

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jsimms615 · Jul 15, 2015

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RDKirk · Jul 15, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
No, you said they were "forced by circumstances to meet in individual homes"

forced does not sound like what you just described. What did you mean they were FORCED to do so?

Do I seriously have to explain "forced by circumstances" to you?

Wait, I already did explain the circumstances that forced them to meet in houses in post #420, my next post.

LoveofTruth · Jul 16, 2015

RDKirk said:
Sorry, you're still wrong. First, I said nothing about persecution. That's the straw man you stood up.

They met in homes because large structures were built for specific purposes. Temples were for specific gods, lecture halls belonged to the teachers of specific philosophies, government buildings were for government. If they were fortunate, perhaps someone of substantial wealth became a Christian and offered a large home, but they met in homes because that's all that was available for believers to meet at any time as necessary and desired.

Today, a congregation may, for instance, rent a movie theater or a school for Sunday morning services.

I didn't see why they were "forced to do so" in your words

and you said, "Today, a congregation may, for instance, rent a movie theater or a school for Sunday morning services."

This shows me that the understanding you ave of the church and the function of the body under Christ headship is lacking. Read Ephesians 4:15,16, and 1 Peter 4:10;11 and 1 Cor 14:26-38 and see if that works in a large theater or religious temple type building borrowed from the pagans) where everyone faces the back of each others head?

In architecture there is a saying,

"form follows function"

If the function of a gathering is a lecture format where the rest of the people are silent and listen to the exalted leader at the front. The form of the building will be a high place at the front usually with steps leading up to a man made altar, and the rest of the people will be facing forward looking at the back of each others heads and towards the front.

But if the function of the church body when gathered is to have Christ the head working effectually in every part to make increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love, and for all to use the gifts they have in Christ and minister to one another , and to have body ministry in prayer and worship as every one supplies as they let the word of Christ dwell in them richly, and ti have a meal together. Then the form of such a gathering would be where all are facing eachother face to face for mutual edification. It would not be too large to allow everyone to hear and edify eachother. It would be in a home because thatts generally where people have meals together. And it would be allowing God to move in the body and for mutual edification and functioning of the church gathered. This is the wisdom of God in such a pattern and as paul a wise master builder was LED BY GOD to do this in every church. Paul even rebuked the Corinthians for thinking they could do some things different than all the other churches. 1 Cor 14.

"

RDKirk · Jul 16, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
If the function of a gathering is a lecture format where the rest of the people are silent and listen to the exalted leader at the front. The form of the building will be a high place at the front usually with steps leading up to a man made altar, and the rest of the people will be facing forward looking at the back of each others heads and towards the front.

It is unfortunate that apparently you have attended some very disfunctional congregations--or perhaps you simply didn't get involved enough to learn that they had functions far beyond the Sunday morning service.

But, no, if you think that the shape of the room dictates the functionality of the congregation, your understanding of the Body of Christ and the working of the Spirit is not very deep.

As I was saying · Jul 16, 2015

Albion said:
It might. But so might a policy of NOT paying the pastor.

There really is no 'right' or 'wrong' way with this issue, except that by insisting upon an unsalaried pastor, the congregation opens itself up to having part-time (and, often, untrained) ministers, when it needs full time ones in order to handle all that pastors are called upon to do.

That's why most congregations that favor unsalaried pastors are very small ones with very little outreach.

So what does it mean when it says that we are ALL able ministers of the new covenant? If that is the case, why do we need a few professional christians? Isn't a few billions able ministers enough?

As I was saying · Jul 16, 2015

ChristsSoldier115 said:
Some churches are so big those pastors need to have a salary of some type. Believe it or not some of these guys aren't sitting at home reading a bible all day, they're out and about visiting church patrons in the hospital, or at home, or are checking in on whatever community services the church supports or runs.

Question I can't answer is how much is enough? I don't think we need millionaire pastors.

No church today is as big as the church in Corinth, The church in Ephesus, the church in Philippi and none of them had paid ministers.

Albion · Jul 16, 2015

As I was saying said:
So what does it mean when it says that we are ALL able ministers of the new covenant? If that is the case, why do we need a few professional christians? Isn't a few billions able ministers enough?

The several references that you have in mind do not mean that we are all clergypersons simply by being Christians. It means that we all have a stake in the church, unlike the old Hebrew system of a priestly class taken from one tribe of Israel only and considered above everyone else. The usual way that this "equalness" is worked out in the Christian churches is for laymen to participate in governing the congregation through boards of control, etc. and, quite importantly, voting on the calling of a pastor.

Even in churches that have priests and bishops, there is some system that keeps the ordinary members in the process. AND, what's more, we can be sure of this because we have explicit and frequent references in the New Testament to elders, presbyters, bishops, deacons, etc. and their functions and qualifications. So we can see right there that the church is not one in which everyone is identical in all roles, even while there is a certain democracy about it that was absent in the Old Testament church.

LoveofTruth · Jul 16, 2015

RDKirk said:
It is unfortunate that apparently you have attended some very disfunctional congregations--or perhaps you simply didn't get involved enough to learn that they had functions far beyond the Sunday morning service.

But, no, if you think that the shape of the room dictates the functionality of the congregation, your understanding of the Body of Christ and the working of the Spirit is not very deep.

I have attended such a wide spectrum of mans religious forms and they think they were functional and in order. But in most cases they were not. What religious form do you gather in? and what is your order where you go?

Also I am not speaking about the "shape" of the room. I was speaking about the function of the place where the church meets in. If the function of the architecture is for a lecture format, where all are silent and listen to the exalted man at the front. Then the function of the church which is for mutual edification in the Spirit as Christ effectually works in them , is hindered if not totally quenched. No wonder Jesus stands outside Laodicea wanting to come in an sup with them. That is just one of the problems. Christ is not the center and the functioning of the body is not allowed, even by the structure that forces all to see the back of anothers head. The very form hinders the church and body ministry. But in a home sitting around eachother in a living room nurtures family edification, a meal together fellowship etc.

Its also interesting how you say my understanding of the body of Christ and its working is not very deep and you try to invent some aspect of the "shape of the room". I have showed you verses that speak of the function of the body in part, Read Ephesians 4:15,16, and 1 Peter 4:10;11 and 1 Cor 14:26-38, and I notice that you just ignore that. The reason for the structure being made the way it is is the first issue. To build a religious building of man with brick and mortar and say that is a church, shows how shallow the thinking of many is about the true church and its function. The very structure shows that they do not understand the function of the church at all. This should be obvious to the unbiased reader, they do not have the meeting place that is condusive to edifying one another, and so it is hindering to the church. Yes if they want to use these large meetings for evangelism or helping the poor during the week etc. That may be useful. But for a church which meets to wait on the Lord for mutual edification and revelation, the use of all the gifts and a meal together, with fellowship , prayer, worship in the spirit etc. It is not helpful.

LoveofTruth · Jul 16, 2015

Albion said:
The several references that you have in mind do not mean that we are all clergypersons simply by being Christians. It means that we all have a stake in the church, unlike the old Hebrew system of a priestly class taken from one tribe of Israel only and considered above everyone else. The usual way that this "equalness" is worked out in the Christian churches is for laymen to participate in governing the congregation through boards of control, etc. and, quite importantly, voting on the calling of a pastor.

Even in churches that have priests and bishops, there is some system that keeps the ordinary members in the process. AND, what's more, we can be sure of this because we have explicit and frequent references in the New Testament to elders, presbyters, bishops, deacons, etc. and their functions and qualifications. So we can see right there that the church is not one in which everyone is identical in all roles, even while there is a certain democracy about it that was absent in the Old Testament church.

There is no "clergy" and "laity " division. This was invented in history and is unbiblical. The word Clergy comes from kleros, meaning a lot or inheritance, and all believers are the kleros of God as scripture shows, we are also the laity of God, or the people of God.

and all can "minister" to one another 1 peter 4;10,11. Some are more gifted at this, and so like elders who are more skillful in the word of righteousness than a babe, they are to be esteemed highly and valued. But all the body can still let the word of Christ dwell in them richly, teaching and admonishing one another...and all can have gifts to edify the body.

elders are more mature men, presbyters, is a group of elders, Bishops are overseers who watch over and help the body and are able to exhort and convince the gainsayers by the faithful word and doctrine as they have learned in the spirit. deacons are servants who help with needs of the church.

and elder is an overseer Acts 20 and Titus. A man may be an elder/overseer, and have one of the five fold gifts in Ephesians 4. Not just be a pastor gift. But what these men do and do not do is the issue. Where there authority is and is not is also the issue. The authority is in the word of God as they speak it and live it.

Albion · Jul 16, 2015

LoveofTruth said:
There is no "clergy" and "laity " division. This was invented in history and is unbiblical.

Except that it's clearly there in the New Testament. And history itself records the place and functioning of clergy from the earliest days forward.

ChristsSoldier115 · Jul 16, 2015

As I was saying said:
No church today is as big as the church in Corinth, The church in Ephesus, the church in Philippi and none of them had paid ministers.

because the idea of how church wealth should be spent was different back then as well. Acts 2:44 implies a system that nobody in america would ever do, as it stinks of communism. The same problem with such a idea of sharing of wealth like in Acts 2:44 is that too many cults have used the very same system and their is that stigma attached to it.

CalmRon · Jul 16, 2015

ChristsSoldier115 said:
because the idea of how church wealth should be spent was different back then as well. Acts 2:44 implies a system that nobody in america would ever do, as it stinks of communism. The same problem with such a idea of sharing of wealth like in Acts 2:44 is that too many cults have used the very same system and their is that stigma attached to it.

More like a close knit family that shares their possessions

TheBarrd · Jul 16, 2015

CalmRon said:
More like a close knit family that shares their possessions

That was the vision that the Apostles originally had.
Wouldn't it be lovely if we could live up to it?

CalmRon · Jul 16, 2015

TheBarrd said:
That was the vision that the Apostles originally had.
Wouldn't it be lovely if we could live up to it?

It was the case then they all believed the same thing. I don't see such a union in the visible church taking place.

RDKirk · Jul 16, 2015

ChristsSoldier115 said:
because the idea of how church wealth should be spent was different back then as well. Acts 2:44 implies a system that nobody in america would ever do, as it stinks of communism. The same problem with such a idea of sharing of wealth like in Acts 2:44 is that too many cults have used the very same system and their is that stigma attached to it.

I don't believe any pastor in America today would preach 2 Corinthians 8:12-15 without heavily qualifying it. I've heard one radio preacher reading 2 Corinthians actually skip right over it. There is no way to honestly interpret that passage except as a redistribution of income.

Should Ministers get paid???

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