Discussion Cakes,lawsuits,and a Holy Spirit filled life.

SpiritPsalmist

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I think some of you keep missing the point entirely...

The FINE (not lawsuit judgement) that the bakers were ordered to pay was because they were cyber-bullying the gay couple. They posted the couples complete information, including home address, etc. on social media and encouraged others to discriminate against them... and when ordered by the court to stop, they refused.

That's completely different from just not baking a cake. And no one will EVER convince me that it was the Holy Spirit that told them to do such, since when we see how Jesus treated those in sin (such as the woman caught in adultery... "let he who is without sin cast the first stone") it is exactly opposite. He didn't go through the town square announcing where she lived to everyone. Rather, He treated her with dignity as a human being just as she was.

The reason the case is Oregon is completely different (and therefore, no fines, etc.) is because the couple there actually acted in a Christ-like manner while maintaining their beliefs. It's basically the same as a Jewish deli refusing to sell ham to anyone... they just don't carry it in their line, because if someone eats it that would be against their religious beliefs. No discrimination... everyone is treated the same. The Oregon couple said "we can't participate in wedding cakes for same sex couples, therefore, we won't make wedding cakes for anyone". They did not treat the couple differently.... they treated everyone the same. Jesus said "be wise as a serpent, but gentle as a dove"... and that's what they did. They still (I'm assuming) bake birthday cakes, etc.... just not wedding cakes.

Rick, I've looked for this information in the news areas but cannot find it. Do you have a link to where it gives the same info (the bakers publishing the names and addresses) you've given here?
 
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Alithis

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At this point of time I'm not even sure which pathway I would take and I'm the one who posed this modified question.

So if the Holy Spirit can "guide them" with regard to prayer, where I'm not so sure this could ever occur outside of praying in tongues; but if the Spirit could lead someone to pray in a certain direction, this means that he could also give them direction to refuse to supply petrol or to provide them with petrol.
he most certainly can guide them in such a way -any way he pleases. but such laws do not change on the whim of man . God raises up leadership to match mans obedience or mans wickedness .. mankind on the whole lives in rebellion thus god allows leaders to arise that will work with them in bringing judgment down on their own heads .
so what the world does or does not do in regard to laws is not our concern our concern is whether the laws exist or not the people of the world still perish without the Lord Jesus .thus our sole concern is that they be saved from the wrath of God to come .
its a lot to do with what perspective we are viewing it from.. one of standing in judgment and desiring their destruction.. ie not love .
Or one of forgive them lord they do not know what they do. because we should have absolutely no surprise that the world is doing what it is doing .. they are lost they stumble around in the darkness ..
to risk being harsh.. they are fools walking in their own folly ,as we all are before we receive the lord Jesus without whom we have no wisdom.

we must consider ..doing things mans way ,the way of the flesh achieves no change in the heart of a man. once it was illegal (by mans law ) for two men to lay together sexually . did it cause no men to do so ? no of course not .they just did so in secret in the rebellion of their heart . so a legality was ineffectual . for the one simple reason that they already sin against their own conscience they are already in a perpetual state of rebellion against God .As we all were before we received his grace shown us in the lord Jesus .
thus no pointing that out to them will not change them but only aid in enraging their rebellion .
paul said im not ashamed of the Gospel for it is the power of God unto salvation.
so i see a simple pattern .. judging a sinner in regard to his sin confirms he is a sinner .. it only serves to condemns him.
but speaking the Gospel gives him Hope .
if a person sincerely considers his actions to not be sin (by a seared conscience ) then only the holy Spirit can show his heart to himself ..no intellectual words nor judgments will ever do so -with God nothing is impossible .

so i observe that it will always be more beneficial to the lost to speak the gospel in love, then to judge them to be sinner .because,again, judgment already comes ..,it is the very thing we seek that they be delivered from and we do so with the only message that has the power to do so.. The Gospel .
 
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Alithis

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At this point of time I'm not even sure which pathway I would take and I'm the one who posed this modified question.

So if the Holy Spirit can "guide them" with regard to prayer, where I'm not so sure this could ever occur outside of praying in tongues; but if the Spirit could lead someone to pray in a certain direction, this means that he could also give them direction to refuse to supply petrol or to provide them with petrol.
also let me further simply your analogy ... lets view the same people as ones walking a wide easy road to destruction .. along the way they come across us ..at a gas station .they are hungry ..do we not feed them because it will give them strength to walk on to their destruction at the end of that wide easy road ..?
no we act in the Love of God .. we feed them and share the love of God shown us in Jesus yearning that they will turn aside from that wide way and take the way of the cross to everlasting life ... our bread cake or gasoline has no bearing on their outcome . their own decisions do. but they will not know to make that decision except we tell them . and they wont stop to hear it when we are busy judging them .. love does not seek its own desire nor the desire of the flesh. if we desire that they all be wiped out(burn) .. then the love of God is not in us ,yes we desire that wickedness be wiped out .. and praise God .. this has been accomplished in Christ Jesus . but not all men have entered into it .and all who do not will perish . but love demands we do everything in our power to ensure they do not perish. judging them will not accomplish that it only confirms their destruction.

"Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the way is broad that leads to destruction, and there are many who enter through it.14"For the gate is small and the way is narrow that leads to life, and there are few who find it.

we must busy ourselves pointing out that gate (Jesus) :)
 
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Aldebaran

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siiiigh ...to be so repetitive ..

I dont run into any problems(with what i stated earlier) because im not saying that we ..via love and the Gospel do not effect change . we certainly do .for the gospel believed and received affects eternal change in the individual . that individual then joins the kingdom of God ..forsaking "the world" goes out and perpetuates that same love .
but this effectual change is resultant of the Gospel.
we are not called to force that change on the unbeliever
..only to love them both in word and deed and deliver the message . for the "good news" is the power of God unto salvation to every one who believes it .
we seek to share the gospel ... the truth that it effects a change for the eternal betterment of the receiver preparing them for the eternal (not worldly )kingdom of God (which is within firstly ) is resultant .
but it is the message we are commissioned to share .. being salt is the result .

I think you misunderstand why a Christian baker might refuse to bake a cake that is known to be for a homosexual wedding. It isn't to try to convert the unbelieving homosexual. It is simply to refuse to do something that the believer sees as being a sin for the believer to do. BTW, living according to one's conscience can be a way of witnessing to an unbeliever. If the believer just goes along with sin, what kind of message would that send?
 
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probinson

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Rick, I've looked for this information in the news areas but cannot find it. Do you have a link to where it gives the same info (the bakers publishing the names and addresses) you've given here?

Here is a link to the 60-page ruling against "Sweet Cakes by Melissa";
www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf

There is also a Snopes article available on the topic, which states;

"A dispute that began in 2013 when the ‘Sweet Cakes by Melissa’ bakery in Gresham, Oregon, refused to provide a wedding cake to a same-sex couple has come to an end after the state’s Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) ruled that owners Melissa and Aaron Klein must pay damages totaling $135,000 to complainants Laurel and Rachel Bowman-Cryer. A 2 July 2015 ruling issued by the BOLI described the $135,000 as “damages, not fines or civil penalties” ...

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/03/sweet-cakes-melissa-damages/#U0cKOGFgWpe7RQy6.99

According to the ruling, the $135,000 is in fact "damages", and not a fine.

Also from the Snopes article;

"...The lengthy ruling described incidents wherein the Kleins’ promotion of their plight resulted in negative attention and threats to the Bowman-Cryers, including Klein’s publication of court documents to Facebook that included the couple’s home address..."
So it does not appear as though the business published the couple's home address vindictively, but rather it was a result of them posting court documents on their social media page (Page 58, Line 21 of the Final Ruling linked above).

:cool:


 
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We have to admit that many of the comments above have a lot of truth, but the real issue as I see it, is the bullying to which we are subjected. The hefty fine of $135,000 is just a way of telling us that they have the upper hand and we have no recourse. Is bullying no longer bullying when it is done through enacting laws to suppress us and through government action?
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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Here is a link to the 60-page ruling against "Sweet Cakes by Melissa";
www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf

There is also a Snopes article available on the topic, which states;

"A dispute that began in 2013 when the ‘Sweet Cakes by Melissa’ bakery in Gresham, Oregon, refused to provide a wedding cake to a same-sex couple has come to an end after the state’s Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) ruled that owners Melissa and Aaron Klein must pay damages totaling $135,000 to complainants Laurel and Rachel Bowman-Cryer. A 2 July 2015 ruling issued by the BOLI described the $135,000 as “damages, not fines or civil penalties” ...

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/03/sweet-cakes-melissa-damages/#U0cKOGFgWpe7RQy6.99

According to the ruling, the $135,000 is in fact "damages", and not a fine.

Also from the Snopes article;

"...The lengthy ruling described incidents wherein the Kleins’ promotion of their plight resulted in negative attention and threats to the Bowman-Cryers, including Klein’s publication of court documents to Facebook that included the couple’s home address..."
So it does not appear as though the business published the couple's home address vindictively, but rather it was a result of them posting court documents on their social media page (Page 58, Line 21 of the Final Ruling linked above).

:cool:


Thanks Pete :)
 
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Father Rick

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Alithis

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I think you misunderstand why a Christian baker might refuse to bake a cake that is known to be for a homosexual wedding. It isn't to try to convert the unbelieving homosexual. It is simply to refuse to do something that the believer sees as being a sin for the believer to do. BTW, living according to one's conscience can be a way of witnessing to an unbeliever. If the believer just goes along with sin, what kind of message would that send?
Except that wiuld be a self rightous act in itself ...but its slsi missing the point.we are not here to be judge and jury of the world.but to love as christ loved us.
 
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Alithis

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We have to admit that many of the comments above have a lot of truth, but the real issue as I see it, is the bullying to which we are subjected. The hefty fine of $135,000 is just a way of telling us that they have the upper hand and we have no recourse. Is bullying no longer bullying when it is done through enacting laws to suppress us and through government action?
Sounds a bit down..
But rejoice ..we have great recourse of eternal value.
we forgive.we love.we do good to those who do us wrong...
this is confounding to the spirit of this world.it has no defense against Godly love.

Rejoice in the Lord always and again i say- REJOICE :clap:
 
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Father Rick

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Here is a link to the 60-page ruling against "Sweet Cakes by Melissa";
www.oregon.gov/boli/SiteAssets/pages/press/Sweet%20Cakes%20FO.pdf

There is also a Snopes article available on the topic, which states;

"A dispute that began in 2013 when the ‘Sweet Cakes by Melissa’ bakery in Gresham, Oregon, refused to provide a wedding cake to a same-sex couple has come to an end after the state’s Bureau of Labor and Industries (BOLI) ruled that owners Melissa and Aaron Klein must pay damages totaling $135,000 to complainants Laurel and Rachel Bowman-Cryer. A 2 July 2015 ruling issued by the BOLI described the $135,000 as “damages, not fines or civil penalties” ...

Read more at http://m.snopes.com/2015/07/03/sweet-cakes-melissa-damages/#U0cKOGFgWpe7RQy6.99

According to the ruling, the $135,000 is in fact "damages", and not a fine.

Also from the Snopes article;

"...The lengthy ruling described incidents wherein the Kleins’ promotion of their plight resulted in negative attention and threats to the Bowman-Cryers, including Klein’s publication of court documents to Facebook that included the couple’s home address..."
So it does not appear as though the business published the couple's home address vindictively, but rather it was a result of them posting court documents on their social media page (Page 58, Line 21 of the Final Ruling linked above).

:cool:


Actually, Pete... the court documents you linked to specifically say that the bakers intentionally posted the couple's info on social media.

They also state that it was the bakers (and not the couple) who went to the media (repeatedly), using both social media and "christian media" such as CBN to make a huge issue of the situation resulting in harassment and even death threats against the couple.
 
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ken777

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Actually, Pete... the court documents you linked to specifically say that the bakers intentionally posted the couple's info on social media.

They also state that it was the bakers (and not the couple) who went to the media (repeatedly), using both social media and "christian media" such as CBN to make a huge issue of the situation resulting in harassment and even death threats against the couple.
Having had some contact with Aaron & Melissa Klein, I do not believe anything they did was with the intention of causing any harm. Judging them from the media commentary, or even the courts findings, is to accept ungodly sources.
 
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probinson

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Actually, Pete... the court documents you linked to specifically say that the bakers intentionally posted the couple's info on social media.

Actually, the final order states verbatim;

Respondents caused substantial harm to Complainants, in part, through their intentional posting of the Department of Justice complaint on their social media website, which included Complainants' home address.​

Now if it were me, I would have redacted that information before I posted it, but the complainants, despite claiming ignorance because they could not see the disclaimer on the smart phone screen they submitted the complaint from, implicitly agreed to release that information by filing the complaint in the first place.

They also state that it was the bakers (and not the couple) who went to the media (repeatedly), using both social media and "christian media" such as CBN to make a huge issue of the situation resulting in harassment and even death threats against the couple.

That's true.

But the complaint also resulted in a boycott of the business, so it's not like they were keeping the complaint quiet.

In your first post you mentioned the biased reporting of the media and even the Christian media and I absolutely agree with you. But then you posted the article from Patheos that is equally as biased, if not worse, than the other media sources cited.

If you haven't already done so, I would encourage you to read the beginning of the final order. It describes the events that resulted in the complaint being filed and what happened afterward. The attempt of Patheos to absolve the complainants of any personal responsibility for what happened to them is far from a balanced account of the events.

IMO, everyone involved was guilty of acting in the wrong at some point, but absolutley nothing justifies $135,000 awarded in "damages". If someone choosing to not bake you a wedding cake in any way "damages" you, you have serious issues. Issues that are not the fault of a bakery.

:cool:
 
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SpiritPsalmist

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So.. one act based on carnal minded premise..led to error which led to more error..
which has been my point all along..we can learn from this.
;
 
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Father Rick

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Actually, the final order states verbatim;

Respondents caused substantial harm to Complainants, in part, through their intentional posting of the Department of Justice complaint on their social media website, which included Complainants' home address.​

Now if it were me, I would have redacted that information before I posted it, but the complainants, despite claiming ignorance because they could not see the disclaimer on the smart phone screen they submitted the complaint from, implicitly agreed to release that information by filing the complaint in the first place.



That's true.

But the complaint also resulted in a boycott of the business, so it's not like they were keeping the complaint quiet.

In your first post you mentioned the biased reporting of the media and even the Christian media and I absolutely agree with you. But then you posted the article from Patheos that is equally as biased, if not worse, than the other media sources cited.

If you haven't already done so, I would encourage you to read the beginning of the final order. It describes the events that resulted in the complaint being filed and what happened afterward. The attempt of Patheos to absolve the complainants of any personal responsibility for what happened to them is far from a balanced account of the events.

IMO, everyone involved was guilty of acting in the wrong at some point, but absolutley nothing justifies $135,000 awarded in "damages". If someone choosing to not bake you a wedding cake in any way "damages" you, you have serious issues. Issues that are not the fault of a bakery.

:cool:
I read the court documents (or at least skimmed through all... it's over 100 pages)

Actually, it was the media attention... brought by the bakers on themselves.. that led to boycotts, etc.

The only thing that the couple did was request a cake. Now, while the bakers may have disagreed with their marriage, it was the legal right of the couple to ask for a cake. When the bakers refused, the only thing the couple did was file a complaint with the Board of Labor and Industries (which is the appropriate action for any consumer should do if there is a dispute with a business)... then kept their mouth shut. The couple were trying to avoid the spotlight.

It was the bakers who acted inappropriately in posting the couple's info online.
It was the bakers who went public and created a big spectacle (resulting in death threats to the couple and a boycott of the bakery).
It was the bakers than then cried "foul" when the court deemed their actions inappropriate and ordered them to stop.

The couple didn't want attention... They didn't go on TV... They didn't do interviews, etc.

The "damages" were not simply for refusing to bake a cake... but for the harassment, etc. The bakers WERE responsible for those things. The couple tried to avoid it out of fear of losing their foster children that they were trying to adopt.

I agree that the Patheos writer is biased... but that doesn't change the facts. Again, the difference here vs. the other case (where there were no damages awarded) is that here the bakers created a public spectacle resulting in serious harassment and threats to the couple.

Whatever their intentions may have been...their actions did cause damage to the couple and it was for their actions that the court ordered them to pay.
 
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Alithis

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Seems to me there has been an awful lot of judging of Aaron & Melissa Klein from people who say we should not judge others. I find them inspiring.

.

.
It is disappointing that too may are fully missing my point . which is actually, extremely little, to do with the folks themselves and more about the principle of what can be learned by way of the gospel and the preaching of it in both word and deed .
 
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Alithis

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I read the court documents (or at least skimmed through all... it's over 100 pages)
<snip> .....

the documents are interesting and clarify some thngs .however that is not the core topic of the thread ..

this from the OP ....

We are to be ministers of the gospel as empowered by the Holy Spirit to be witnesses of the truth of the Grace of God displayed to all mankind in Christ Jesus.

we are not called to stand as judges over the world(whom we once were of but for that same grace of God)

when we stand in judgment of sinners having been sinners ourselves we do err greatly.
there is a judgment coming upon the inhabitants of the earth and HIS judgement is righteous holy and perfect . ours can never be so .for we are judging those whom we ourselves once were before we were set free by the Love of God . we were not made innocent of sin by anything we did or could ever do. so upon what grounds do we judge another of this world ? - no grounds at all.
(i speak not of judgments in the church .. but of judgments of the worldly people around us).


.....is what the topic is about
 
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Aldebaran

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Except that wiuld be a self rightous act in itself ...but its slsi missing the point.we are not here to be judge and jury of the world.but to love as christ loved us.

But we are still to judge ourselves. That's why we have a conscience.
 
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