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[PERMANENTLY CLOSED] my Gender
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thispoorman
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The "average" person, I think, likes to have things locked down so that they no longer need to think about it. I am male. I've always felt male. I never felt a need to be or to become a female. That won't change.
I also detest sports in any fashion; they just seem boring to me (except figure skating...). I love watching cooking shows, and would much prefer watching an episode of Downton Abbey or The Forsyte Saga on public television to watching a Super Bowl or Stanley Cup playoff. I vastly prefer the company and conversation of women to that of men. I'm an English teacher, for the love of...! My vocabulary is, IISSM, impressive. I appreciate all forms of art. And while I certainly am no "metrosexual", I confess to being less obviously "testosterone-driven" that many men.
In fact, I believe that, had I been living in the first century A.D., I would most likely have fallen under the category of "malakos", or "soft one". I have followed with interest discussions of this term online, and have come to believe that the traditional translation of "passive homosexual partner" is, at least, not the primary meaning; rather, it would be something more along the lines of "man-who-is-not-bearded-and muscular-and-dominant-and-patriarchically-viewing-of women-as inferior-socially-and sexually". By the way, that's how language works; one word does not mean one thing, usually, and especially in translation. Words are clouds of socially-conditioned meaning and inference (and yes, that applies equally to "the original Hebrew and Greek"). That's why "word-for-word translations" and "what the Bible says" are nonstarters, theologically and morally.
So, the answer to the OP's question is: of course. Remember always: God's Word is not the English Bible. God's Word is Jesus, who said, "(Him) that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
I also detest sports in any fashion; they just seem boring to me (except figure skating...). I love watching cooking shows, and would much prefer watching an episode of Downton Abbey or The Forsyte Saga on public television to watching a Super Bowl or Stanley Cup playoff. I vastly prefer the company and conversation of women to that of men. I'm an English teacher, for the love of...! My vocabulary is, IISSM, impressive. I appreciate all forms of art. And while I certainly am no "metrosexual", I confess to being less obviously "testosterone-driven" that many men.
In fact, I believe that, had I been living in the first century A.D., I would most likely have fallen under the category of "malakos", or "soft one". I have followed with interest discussions of this term online, and have come to believe that the traditional translation of "passive homosexual partner" is, at least, not the primary meaning; rather, it would be something more along the lines of "man-who-is-not-bearded-and muscular-and-dominant-and-patriarchically-viewing-of women-as inferior-socially-and sexually". By the way, that's how language works; one word does not mean one thing, usually, and especially in translation. Words are clouds of socially-conditioned meaning and inference (and yes, that applies equally to "the original Hebrew and Greek"). That's why "word-for-word translations" and "what the Bible says" are nonstarters, theologically and morally.
So, the answer to the OP's question is: of course. Remember always: God's Word is not the English Bible. God's Word is Jesus, who said, "(Him) that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
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Jae jones
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Okay, wow... I am totally confused about definitions and terms. Can you help me understand the difference between transsexual and transgender.
What is it called when you change your body through operations to become physically the other sex.. girl becomes boy through an operation, or boy becomes a girl through an operation?
What is a person who has both sex organs in one physical body?
Real simple statements might help break my confusion, then I can read the thread again with a better understanding.
What is it called when you change your body through operations to become physically the other sex.. girl becomes boy through an operation, or boy becomes a girl through an operation?
What is a person who has both sex organs in one physical body?
Real simple statements might help break my confusion, then I can read the thread again with a better understanding.
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Taking this one step at a time.
Transgender can be a very broad term for a person who doesn't identify with or live within the expectations of their birth sex (drag queens, cross dressers, etc.)
Transsexual specifically refers to someone who desires to transition or is in transition from their birth sex to make their body match their identified gender. Transsexual is covered under the transgender umbrella too, but some people prefer to say "transgender" or "trans" instead of "transsexual" because it has the word "sex" in it and people then think it's about sex and it's not.
That is part of transition, specifically medical transition.
The older term was "hermaphrodite", but now it is grouped in with "intersex" or "differences in sexual development".
Transgender can be a very broad term for a person who doesn't identify with or live within the expectations of their birth sex (drag queens, cross dressers, etc.)
Transsexual specifically refers to someone who desires to transition or is in transition from their birth sex to make their body match their identified gender. Transsexual is covered under the transgender umbrella too, but some people prefer to say "transgender" or "trans" instead of "transsexual" because it has the word "sex" in it and people then think it's about sex and it's not.
That is part of transition, specifically medical transition.
The older term was "hermaphrodite", but now it is grouped in with "intersex" or "differences in sexual development".
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PapaZoom
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I don't understand gender dysphoria aka gender identity disorder. I don't know if it's still called a disorder though. I have read a book by a transgender (male to female back to male) and he had quite a story to tell. It's confusing to me so I can't really relate to what it could "feel" like to be a male but feel like a female (or even neither).
We have a student at our school who identifies as a girl. In my 26 years as a public school teacher, I've never experienced this and so I had lots of questions (hence reading of books and websites).
If they call it gender identity disorder, doesn't that suggest that something is not working right? I've always believed I had a "feminine" side but I simply mean that as a behavioral characteristic. I taught kindergarten for 8 years. I've been working in an elementary school for 26. God has gifted me to work with the little ones and I am specially suited for the younger kids.
But I've never been confused about my gender. I would appreciate learning more about this issue from others who know more through experience or just general thoughts others might have. I appreciate this thread.
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StephanieSomer
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I'm not confused about my gender either. Nor is any other transsexual that I know. And I know quite a few. Gender dysphoria is not gender confusion, as so many like to keep saying. Gender dysphoria is the debilitating feelings of great discomfort from having ones genitals and one's gender in complete opposition to each other. Try to imagine have two left legs. Then multiply by 10.
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PapaZoom
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Forgive me for my ignorance on this but I guess I don't know what people mean when they say "gender." I generally see gender as either male or female. If born a male then gender = male. If born a female then gender = female.
Also, how do you view Genesis 1:27 (So God created mankind in his own image, in the image of God he created them; male and female he created them.) in light of this discussion?
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That's the way most people see it because that's the way most people experience it. There is a biological comparison you can look to for help in understanding: intersex people. People can be born with chromosomes that don't match their sexual organs (born with male genitalia but XX chromosomes and vice versa). People are also sometimes born with indistinct genitalia or both. Is it really so difficult in light of that reality to imagine that people could be born in such a way where there brains don't match their bodies?
Potentially he created some people who aren't entirely 100% male or female, but a mixture of both. See the above for simplicity where we can see that nature (at least) creates people who aren't 100% male or female.
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PapaZoom
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Yes I do understand this happens but it's extremely rare so it's probably not wise to generalize it as a rule. Gender
dysphoria isn't an intersex condition. So it must be something else. I guess gender must mean that one could have male genitalia but identify as female. Or vice versa. And yet I was told that gender is also fluid and that one can "flow" in and out of gender identity. I can't relate to how that works. I don't doubt that people have these feelings or whatever you prefer to call it, but it does seem to me that at least in some cases, something is broken.
This again sounds like intersex which afaik differs from gender dysphoria. This link was helpful in understanding the frequency and they have other articles that provide helpful information: http://www.isna.org/faq/frequency. I contrast that with the explanations found here: http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria.
The webmd site does seem to clarify what those with gender issues (I don't know how else to put it) feel and how their physical bodies are in conflict with internal feelings of gender identity.
(I've probably written this a bit awkwardly but it's difficult to know what are the acceptable ways to state things)
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I wasn't saying that gender dysphoria is an intersex condition. I was using the physical intersex condition as a comparison - a metaphor if you will.
Nothing needs to be "broken" for something to be a little different.
I was simply trying to make a comparison to make it easier to understand. It's really hard to explain something for which there is no direct comparison.
I'm not going to nitpick your wording. You are trying to learn, which is a positive thing.
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StephanieSomer
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Although I think others have answered these questions, I'll go ahead and respond. It needs to be recognized that the words "male" and "female" are used in several different ways. The usage to which you are referring in your question is specifically sex, or phenotype. It is a description of what type of genitals a person has. The words are also used to describe the genetics of a person, or genotype. As has already been pointed out, genotype and phenotype do not always coincide, as God originally intended.
The words "male" and "female" also can correctly be used to differentiate gender. Gender is a completely internal sense of being within each person that is the source of the feeling of group identity you feel when you are in a group of men, assuming that you are indeed cisgender.
Numerous clinical studies have demonstrated that there are specific structures within the human brain which are sexually dimorphic. In other words, those structures in a normal male are different than the same structures in normal females. It has also been further demonstrated that the brains of transsexual individuals are not structured similarly to others of the same birth sex. Instead, they are similar to those of the opposite sex. Studies on some of these structures in rats has shown some striking facts. The studies are considered valid for humans as well since there is a great deal of similarity in how the brains of rats and humans are structured. When male rats had their gender specific portions of their brain altered to be similar to the brains of female rats, their behavior made an immediate change to that which is considered normal for females instead of the behavior they used to display, which is considered normal for males. That demonstrates that the internal sense of gender is predicated on the structure of the brain, not on the genotype or phenotype of the individual.
During fetal development, there are numerous chemical and hormonal triggers which take place on schedule to differentiate the individual according to genetics. However, occasionally those triggers are either absent or out of time with what is necessary for the process to achieve conformity of the genotype, the phenotype, and the gender. It's already been demonstrated by others that the phenotype and genotype aren't always in agreement. Since both of these characteristics develop according to chemical or hormonal cues in vitro, and sometimes go awry, it's perfectly feasible for the third element of gender identity to also go awry. This is what is happening to those we call transsexuals. Our brains are structured differently from others of the same genotype.
I need to leave atm, so I don't have time to address your second question. I will do so when I get back.
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StephanieSomer
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Ok. On to your second question. If you take that verse in Genesis at full face value for what it actually says, there is nothing in gender transition that is contrary to it. All it really says is that God created mankind with two sexes. There is no prohibition involved in that verse against altering our born equipment.
Now, to those who insist that the verse DOES establish God's inerrant and total authority over our genitals, I would point out that God ALSO created man as an immortal being. As created, Adam would have never died. Indeed, had he not sinned, he would still be with us today. Romans is very clear that death is the result of sin. Before sin came into the world, there was no death. Also, a fair argument could be presented that the diet of all animals changed drastically after the fall in the garden. In other words, nearly everything changed after Adam's sin. Nearly nothing of God's original design is still in existence. So the appeal that transition conflicts with God's creation is unfounded. If there were any validity to such a claim, then treatment of conjoined twins, cleft palates and a myriad of other defects from birth would be sinful as well. Only a fool would take such a position regarding those conditions. So, why on this one? What is different? Only that the defect isn't visible to them. But, I can attest to you that it is indeed felt by the one with it. In a huge way.
It can be honestly expected that Adam and Eve both had fully congruent phenotype, genotype, and gender identity, since God's creation was originally perfect. But it is no longer. It is heavily flawed. For proof, I ask a single question....How many people throughout history have not died and are still living, other than the current population? None. ALL die. None of us are immortal anymore. Now, if that flawed creation produces individuals with imperfect constitutions and those imperfections are treatable, why do some insist that any such treatment is sinful, especially in light of the fact that no such Scriptural pronouncement exists?
It is often argued that some other treatment should be done, and not hormonal and surgical transition. That position is never defended very well. What other treatment has been demonstrated to be effective? (Clue: none.)
And that is opposed to the 98% success rate of hormonal/surgical transition in alleviating the debilitating symptoms. In fact, most of the posts I have seen here over the last year and a half which take such a stand offer no suggestion whatsoever for an alternative. The truth is, they are just uncomfortable with this treatment. In reality, they aren't arguing that another treatment should be done, only that this treatment should not be done. And that argument is never defended apologetically from Scripture. In truth, there is only one verse in the entire Scripture which might be argued to speak directly to this condition. One. (Deut 22:5) But, to make the claim that it DOES actually speak to this issue, it must be taken out of context. So, opponents are left looking very dishonest in their stance, since they have no Scriptural appeal for their opinion. (Their true error is in their goal of making Scripture support their opinion. That is a misuse of Scripture. Opinions should come from the Scripture, not Scripture used to defend one's opinions.)
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StephanieSomer
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For those who have trouble differentiating what gender is, and how it is distinct from genitals or genetics, I might be able to help. I have a few scenarios which might be able to put you in touch with your own personal sense of gender. Most cis-gender people don't recognize the distinction simply because they are cis-gender. Cis-gender means to have agreement and congruence between your genetics, your genitals, and your gender identity. The very fact that they are in agreement tends to blur the lines of distinction, making them seem to be one and the same. They are not.
First, I will compare our experience of gender with our experience of race. Hopefully, most of us are devoid of racial prejudice. Whether or not that is true won't affect what I'm about to say. Regardless of how you view people of other races, most of us would readily admit that we would feel more at ease if we were in the midst of a large group of people that were all of our own race, as opposed to being in the midst of a large group of people who were all of a different race. Why? Because we are familiar with our own race. We identify with that race in a way that we cannot identify with another. That's not to say that we cannot identify at all with other races, only that we have a particular sense of identity with our own race that we are unable to feel with those of another race. Internally, we say to ourselves on an unconscious level, "I AM one of these." In the exact same way, we would feel more akin to being in a large group of people who were all of our own gender, than we would feel if they all were the other gender. Again, we internally say to ourselves on an unconscious level, "I AM one of these." That is the sense of gender identity.
Now, as another attempt to convey some understanding, I need to make use of one of the greatest gifts that God has endowed each one of us with, imagination. If you will follow the story I am about to tell you as if you were the subject being discussed, I think you will find some sense of what transsexuals go through in their lifelong quest to find wholeness.
Imagine that there is an alien race on another planet that is far beyond our own capabilities and knowledge. As far beyond us as we are beyond an amoeba. That race is a peaceful race and has a strong desire to increase their knowledge. So, in their thirst for knowledge, they visit other planets and study the life forms they encounter. One of their ships is dispatched to Earth to collect specimens. And you are chosen as one of those specimens. They take you aboard and carry you off to their home planet for further study. They are intrigued by the concept of gender which seems so peculiar to these Earth creatures. So, they design a study to find out how it affects the Earth individuals. Since their knowledge is so far advanced to our own, they have the ability to not only alter your physical form to that of the opposite sex, they can actually alter your genetics to the opposite sex also. After undergoing their treatment, you are completely physically the other sex. However, all your memories, your inclinations, and your feelings are unchanged. In essence, they change ONLY your physical, and leave your "soul" untouched.
I should mention at this juncture that this advanced race also is fully capable of time travel.
So, after your conversion into the opposite sex, they carry you back to Earth. However, they ALSO take you forward 200 years into the future. Then they drop you off back on Earth to see how you live.
Now, after having been through all this, would you pursue transition back to the gender that is in your "soul"? Or, would you remain in the form they put you in? Really my question is a roudabout way of asking you, "What is your gender?". For, it is expected that you would strongly desire to be in form as you are indeed within. Keep in mind that you are now 200 years in the future. Nobody has any knowledge whatsoever of anything about you. There are no expectations of you from anyone then living. The choice is entirely your own, with no effect whatsoever on anyone else. What would you do?
First, I will compare our experience of gender with our experience of race. Hopefully, most of us are devoid of racial prejudice. Whether or not that is true won't affect what I'm about to say. Regardless of how you view people of other races, most of us would readily admit that we would feel more at ease if we were in the midst of a large group of people that were all of our own race, as opposed to being in the midst of a large group of people who were all of a different race. Why? Because we are familiar with our own race. We identify with that race in a way that we cannot identify with another. That's not to say that we cannot identify at all with other races, only that we have a particular sense of identity with our own race that we are unable to feel with those of another race. Internally, we say to ourselves on an unconscious level, "I AM one of these." In the exact same way, we would feel more akin to being in a large group of people who were all of our own gender, than we would feel if they all were the other gender. Again, we internally say to ourselves on an unconscious level, "I AM one of these." That is the sense of gender identity.
Now, as another attempt to convey some understanding, I need to make use of one of the greatest gifts that God has endowed each one of us with, imagination. If you will follow the story I am about to tell you as if you were the subject being discussed, I think you will find some sense of what transsexuals go through in their lifelong quest to find wholeness.
Imagine that there is an alien race on another planet that is far beyond our own capabilities and knowledge. As far beyond us as we are beyond an amoeba. That race is a peaceful race and has a strong desire to increase their knowledge. So, in their thirst for knowledge, they visit other planets and study the life forms they encounter. One of their ships is dispatched to Earth to collect specimens. And you are chosen as one of those specimens. They take you aboard and carry you off to their home planet for further study. They are intrigued by the concept of gender which seems so peculiar to these Earth creatures. So, they design a study to find out how it affects the Earth individuals. Since their knowledge is so far advanced to our own, they have the ability to not only alter your physical form to that of the opposite sex, they can actually alter your genetics to the opposite sex also. After undergoing their treatment, you are completely physically the other sex. However, all your memories, your inclinations, and your feelings are unchanged. In essence, they change ONLY your physical, and leave your "soul" untouched.
I should mention at this juncture that this advanced race also is fully capable of time travel.
So, after your conversion into the opposite sex, they carry you back to Earth. However, they ALSO take you forward 200 years into the future. Then they drop you off back on Earth to see how you live.
Now, after having been through all this, would you pursue transition back to the gender that is in your "soul"? Or, would you remain in the form they put you in? Really my question is a roudabout way of asking you, "What is your gender?". For, it is expected that you would strongly desire to be in form as you are indeed within. Keep in mind that you are now 200 years in the future. Nobody has any knowledge whatsoever of anything about you. There are no expectations of you from anyone then living. The choice is entirely your own, with no effect whatsoever on anyone else. What would you do?
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PapaZoom
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Thanks for your reply. I agree as you said that the creative order is "heavily flawed" and we can see that fact in many of the kids of abnormalities that you point out (cleft palates for example). I don't agree that "nearly nothing of God's original design is still in existence." That is not to say there aren't flaws (or as I like to put it, something is broken). In light of this, I do believe that gender identity is part of the "flaw" that exists. Something is broken (from God's original design.) But that is not to say the gender struggles some feel isn't real. It is. And I believe it's up to us to love and not judge. But for me, part of that loving of others is learning about what is truly best for them. I think that "what is best" will differ from person to person. One thing I'm trying NOT to do is to pretend I understand something I really don't. I have opinions and ideas but I'm really trying to work though this issue. That is why it is helpful to hear the thoughts of others (such as yourself) as it gives me different ideas to "chew on" so to speak. Again, thank you for taking the time to reply.
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GenetoJean
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I am one of the few people who identify as transgender that have no problem with saying something is wrong with me. I always say my transition is about trying to live the happiest most successful life I can. I also have found myself closer to God then I have ever been before. I am not the theologian that Steph is nor am I scientifically minded as Tink is but I do like to help people the best I can.
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StephanieSomer
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I really appreciate your honesty and willingness to confront what you may initially think and believe and how it conforms to what God truly says. Trust me. I really do understand the difficulty cisgender people have with this issue. I'm not an "in your face", "you gotta respect me", type of transwoman. I am beyond willing to assist anyone who has the desire to understand what IS a difficult, and painful, ordeal for a lot of people. A great deal of the pain that transsexuals endure is the direct result of misinformation and ignorance of those around them. The only thing which can alleviate that is understanding. Sadly, few are willing to understand. Whenever I run across an exception, it gives me great hope.
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PapaZoom
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I am dealing with this issue at work and since I have daily contact with this person I want to know as much as I can from as many perspectives as I can find. Last years I had never heard of gender identity or if I had, it didn't stick. But a when a student identifies as a different gender than how you've know him (now a her) for 3 years, you have to learn a lot fast. I love this student (as I do all my kiddos) and want to do right by him (her). It's still difficult to think of him as a her and I do have some concerns. But my most important job is to love and care for my kiddos and treat them with the dignity and respect they deserve. We are all human beings created in the image of God (in my view).
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