Which flag offends you more?

Which offends you more?

  • The Confederate Flag

    Votes: 11 19.6%
  • The Soviet Flag

    Votes: 14 25.0%
  • Unsure or neither

    Votes: 31 55.4%

  • Total voters
    56

outsidethecamp

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Yes, I see where the carvings on the brass doors represent the 1st 10 amendments in the Bill of Rights and not the 10 commandments.

The Washington Monument, Jefferson Memorial, and Lincoln Memorial
In the Washington Monument not only are numerous Bible verses and religious acknowledgements carved on memorial blocks in the walls, including the phrases: “Holiness to the Lord” (Exodus 28:26;30:30; Isaiah 23:18, Zechariah 14:20), “Search the Scriptures” (John 5:39), “The memory of the just is blessed” (Proverbs 10:7), “May Heaven to this Union continue its beneficence,” and “In God We Trust”, but the Latin inscription Laus Deo – “Praise be to God” – is engraved on the monument’s capstone.

The Lincoln Memorial contains numerous acknowledgments of God and citations of Bible verses, including the declarations that “we here highly resolve that . . . this nation under God . . . shall not perish from the earth”; “The Almighty has His own purposes. ‘Woe unto the world because of offenses; for it must needs be that offenses come, but woe to that man by whom the offense cometh’ (Matthew 18:7)”; “as was said three thousand years ago, so still it must be said ‘the judgments of the Lord are true and righteous altogether’ (Psalms 19:9)”; “one day every valley shall be exalted and every hill and mountain shall be made low, the rough places will be made plain, and the crooked places will be made straight and the glory of the Lord shall be revealed and all flesh see it together” (Dr. Martin Luther King’s speech, based on Isaiah 40:4-5).

In the Library of Congress, The Giant Bible of Mainz and The Gutenberg Bible are on prominent permanent display and etched on the walls are Bible verses, including “The light shineth in darkness, and the darkness comprehendeth it not” (John 1:5); “Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore, get wisdom and with all thy getting, get understanding” (Proverbs 4:7); “What doth the Lord require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God” (Micah 6:8); and “The heavens declare the Glory of God, and the firmament showeth His handiwork” (Psalm 19:1).1

Taken from: http://www.allabouthistory.org/spiritual-heritage-and-government-monuments-faq.htm
 
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TLK Valentine

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What happened after the war to the South, was in many ways worse than the war itself. I will post some facts about it, later.

I don't doubt it. Actions have consequences.
 
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98cwitr

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Much of Kentucky remained loyal to the Union unlike the traitors who seceded. They did not have to swear alliance but allegiance. They were lucky to have been spared the firing squad for their treason.

Waiving the flag of treason or supporting it in any way is not only childish but an apologia for the needless deaths of Americans. Just imagine if anyone supported an open display the swastika or hammer and sickle or flags of the Viet Cong, al-Qaeda, or ISIS - such ignorance would be condemned by all. Yet here we have people endorsing the waiving of the flag of treason. That is utterly pathetic.

You realize that America was founded on treason. We seceded from Britain. Don't you think the British considered that treason as well?

Neither flag offends me. They only stand for what you perceive them to stand for.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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You realize that America was founded on treason. We seceded from Britain. Don't you think the British considered that treason as well?

Neither flag offends me. They only stand for what you perceive them to stand for.

I am of the thought that treason can't happen once independence was declared.
 
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KarateCowboy

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I am of the thought that treason can't happen once independence was declared.
If you declare independence and can pull it off then it is independence. If they can stop you then it's treason. Kind of like Aladdin: "It's only illegal if you get caught".
 
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TLK Valentine

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If you declare independence and can pull it off then it is independence. If they can stop you then it's treason. Kind of like Aladdin: "It's only illegal if you get caught".

History books are written by the winners, after all.
 
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AHH who-stole-my-name

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If you declare independence and can pull it off then it is independence. If they can stop you then it's treason. Kind of like Aladdin: "It's only illegal if you get caught".
Then, i think it would be better to refrain from being stopped.. Lol! Thank you sir!
 
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outsidethecamp

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House moves to ban Confederate flags at Vicksburg cemetery

I am now more convinced than ever that something else is afoot here, with this flag business. Now, they want to restrict people from decorating their ancestors graves with confederate flags in southern federal cemeteries.

Either the government is about to rob us blind again or they are trying to properly inflame people's passions in the hope that someone will lose their cool.

Thankfully, most people recognize that Congress is only trying to provoke the South as they try in vain to pit people against one another, (what's new), while the world around us is falling apart.
 
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variant

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You realize that America was founded on treason. We seceded from Britain. Don't you think the British considered that treason as well?

If the Confederacy's aims were more noble they might have stood a chance as England might have supported them like France supported the revolution.
 
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outsidethecamp

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If the Confederacy's aims were more noble they might have stood a chance as England might have supported them like France supported the revolution.

Seceding is not treason.

“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world”.
Abraham Lincoln – U.S. Congress, 1847

A little over 10 years later after the South attempted precisely that, Lincoln, when asked, “Why not let the South go in peace”? replied; “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government”? “And, what then will become of my tariff”?
Abraham Lincoln to Virginia Compromise Delegation March 1861
 
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variant

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Seceding is not treason.

It most certainly is. The question of whether it is correct or not.

George Washington was certainly a traitor to the crown.

I'm also not mentioning treason in that post so why are you directing that comment at me?
 
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tulc

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Seceding is not treason.
Only if you win. :wave:

“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world”.
Abraham Lincoln – U.S. Congress, 1847
Ever read that speech? It's pretty interesting: http://teachingamericanhistory.org/...n-the-united-states-house-of-representatives/
the quote itself was taken from this portion of the speech:
Some time after my colleague [Mr. Richardson] introduced the resolutions I have mentioned, I introduced a preamble, resolution, and interrogatories, intended to draw the President out, if possible, on this hitherto untrodden ground. To show their relevancy, I propose to state my understanding of the true rule for ascertaining the boundary between Texas and Mexico. It is, that wherever Texas was exercising jurisdiction was hers; and wherever Mexico was exercising jurisdiction, was hers; and that whatever separated the actual exercise of jurisdiction of the one from that of the other, was the true boundary between them. If, as is probably true, Texas was exercising jurisdiction along the western bank of the Nueces, and Mexico was exercising it along the eastern bank of the Rio Grande, then neither river was the boundary; but the uninhabited country between the two was. The extent of our territory in that region depended, not on any treaty-fixed boundary, (for no treaty had attempted it,) but on revolution. Any people anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right—a right which, we hope and believe, is to liberate the world. Nor is this right confined to cases in which the whole people of an existing government may choose to exercise it. Any portion of such people that can may revolutionize, and make their own of so much of the territory as they inhabit. More than this, a majority of any portion of such people may revolutionize, putting down a minority, intermingled with, or near about them, who may oppose their movement. Such minority was precisely the case of the Tories of our own Revolution. It is a quality of revolutions not to go by old lines, or old laws; but to break up both, and make new ones. As to the country now in question, we bought it of France in 18O3, and sold it to Spain in 1819, according to the President’s statements. After this, all Mexico, including Texas, revolutionized against Spain; and still later, Texas revolutionized against Mexico. In my view, just so far as she carried her revolution, by obtaining the actual, willing or unwilling, submission of the people, so far the country was hers, and no farther.
you should read the whole thing, like I said it's pretty cool. Of course that speech was given when he was one of the Representatives from Illinois and was one of the reasons he lost the next election. (by the way, he also wasn't even a Republican at the time) :)

A little over 10 years later after the South attempted precisely that, Lincoln, when asked, “Why not let the South go in peace”? replied; “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government”? “And, what then will become of my tariff”?
Abraham Lincoln to Virginia Compromise Delegation March 1861
this quote is considered doubtful, only one guy claimed President Lincoln said and only long after Lincoln was dead.
tulc(loves quotes) ;)
 
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outsidethecamp

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Ok, this is for anybody and everybody. Seceding from the Union was a States' Right. And the North threatened to do it 5 separate times within a 50 year span.

States' Rights - The rights of the states to serve the people by using the powers accorded to them by the social compact theory. The states' rights view held that each state was primarily an independent entity joined in a compact of union, but a union in which they maintained their identity and were not subservient to a centralized national authority.

The Social Compact Theory - The theory of government states that, regarding human authority, the people are sovereign. They establish state (and other local) governments and delegate limited authority to them. The government is obligated to protect the people's inalienable rights, such as life, liberty, property, and the pursuit of happiness. If the government abuses its power, the poeple have the right to "alter or abolish" it. This theory is expressed in the Declaration of Independence, and is evidenced in the ratification ordinances of the United States Constitution by the states of New York, Rhode Island and Virginia.

Secession - A States' right, specifically that of a single state, to leave a union and become its own national entity at any time.

New York, Rhode Island and Virginia actually included in their written ratifications of the Constitution statements on the subject of a states' right to secede from the new union. New York's ratification ordinance read in part: "That the Powers of Government may be reassumed by the People, whensoever it shall become necessary to their Happiness..." Virginia's read in part: "...the People of Virginia declare and make known that the powers granted under the Constitution being derived from the People of the United States may be resumed by them (the Virginians) whensoever the same shall be perverted to their injury or oppression and that every power not granted thereby remains with them and at their will..."

New York, Rhode Island and Virginia each declared that if ever the rights they granted to the Union were misused to their harm, by the federal government or the other states, it was proper for the offended state to resume its right of self-governance and withdraw from that Union.

Kentucky and Virginia Resolutions - Authored by Thomas Jefferson and James Madison, these resolutions rejected the controversial Alien and Sedition Acts of 1798, which threatened prison time for Americans who criticized the federal government. The Kentucky and Virginia resolutions reasserted the social compact theory of the Constitution between the states and the national government. Kentucky and Virginia charged that the Sedition Act ran contrary to the 1st Amendment of the Constitution.

Jefferson's Kentucky Resolution further advocated the states' rights to "nullify" any law they believed not to be in accord with the Constitution.


Thus, two of America's greatest statesmen thundered forth their own declarations that no powers were conveyed by the individual states to the federal government that could be employed to the former's harm, and that if they were, the state could act as necessary to protect itself and its people.

The North and not the South (New England States) threatened to secede 5 times and never was a charge of treason or accusations of being unpatriotic leveled at them.

A first term Congressman supported the right of secession in 1848 when he said the following:

“Any people, anywhere, being inclined and having the power, have the right to rise up and shake off the existing government, and form a new one that suits them better. This is a most valuable, a most sacred right, a right which we hope and believe is to liberate the world”. Abraham Lincoln – U.S. Congress, 1847

Thirteen years later, when the Southern states wanted to exercise the right of secession which the New England states had threatened repeatedly over the past half century, President Abraham Lincoln called it treason. And those New England states who had themselves viewed the Federal Government as a social compact from which they could depart, now rose up and decried what they viewed as the South's intent to destroy the Union.

Taken from "The War Between the States - America's Uncivil War"

"If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it." Thomas Jefferson, First Inaugural Address, 1801.
 
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Avid

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... New York, Rhode Island and Virginia each declared that if ever the rights they granted to the Union were misused to their harm, by the federal government or the other states, it was proper for the offended state to resume its right of self-governance and withdraw from that Union...
We can clearly see from this that the treason was on the part of the Union, who went against the provisions and limits of the Constitution, because they had the intention of starting a war to end states rights. This was asserted then, and has been known since by any who were not wrapped up in the revisionist version of history. Whether the goal included an abolishing of slavery as an institution (which was protected by international law at the time) is inconsequential. That the early colonies were forced to utilize slave labor against their will was part of that.

The Northern states allowed, and many people there kept, slaves. If what we were told in revisionist history was true, then all those states would each abolish slavery on their own, independent of what the federal government might do. Then one may consider it the driving issue. It is not reasonable to apply more than a century of social change to a situation so far in the past. It is like asking someone who divorces after 25 years if they would have married 25 years ago if they knew what they know now.
 
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KarateCowboy

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If the Confederacy's aims were more noble they might have stood a chance as England might have supported them like France supported the revolution.
"More noble" being a short way of saying "somehow more profitable to France or detrimental to its rivals"
 
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DaisyDay

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A little over 10 years later after the South attempted precisely that, Lincoln, when asked, “Why not let the South go in peace”? replied; “I can’t let them go. Who would pay for the government”? “And, what then will become of my tariff”?
Abraham Lincoln to Virginia Compromise Delegation March 1861
Yeah, right. Do you have a cite for that?
 
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variant

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"More noble" being a short way of saying "somehow more profitable to France or detrimental to its rivals"

The Confederacy was definitely a profitable proposition for England and France and yet neither actually intervened in the conflict nor did they recognize the Confederacy.

I'll give you one guess as to why they stayed mostly hands off.
 
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outsidethecamp

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Yeah, right. Do you have a cite for that?

449-
Lincoln seemed impressed by his solemnity, and asked a few questions: "But what am I to do meantime with those men at Montgomery? Am I to let them go on?" "Yes, sir," replied Colonel Baldwin, decisively, "until they can be peaceably brought back." "And open Charleston, &c., as ports of entry, with their ten per cent, tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" This last question he announced with such emphasis, as showed that in his view it decided the whole matter. He then indicated that the interview was at an end, and dismissed Colonel Baldwin, without promising anything more definite.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Sout..._B._Baldwin's_Interview_with_Lincoln—A_Memoir
 
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tulc

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Lincoln seemed impressed by his solemnity, and asked a few questions: "But what am I to do meantime with those men at Montgomery? Am I to let them go on?" "Yes, sir," replied Colonel Baldwin, decisively, "until they can be peaceably brought back." "And open Charleston, &c., as ports of entry, with their ten per cent, tariff. What, then, would become of my tariff?" This last question he announced with such emphasis, as showed that in his view it decided the whole matter. He then indicated that the interview was at an end, and dismissed Colonel Baldwin, without promising anything more definite.

https://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Southern_Historical_Society_Papers/Volume_01/June/Colonel_John_B._Baldwin's_Interview_with_Lincoln—A_Memoir

Yes that's the quote that can't be proven and that's where it came from. No one else ever heard it and the person being "quoted" was long dead by the time it came out. That's why it's pretty much believed to be bogus. Except of course by people who have an agenda to believe it to be true. :wave:
tulc(is going in search of some coffee to liberate) :coffee:
 
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