Why do demons disobey God?

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Colter

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hahahaaa great story. Kind of a Star Wars thingy you got going there. But pure fiction...

Why? Pure fiction? It makes more sense than God and Satan working together. Why would the evil ones rebel if they knew the truth? Why would any angel who truly knew the Father join Satan? It only makes sense if they were free will beings who are not God, less than God, with power and authority to "fool the whole world."

What's you explanation?
 
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BobRyan

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QUOTE="BobRyan, post: 68249224, member: 235244"]While Enoch would be a great source - the book of Enoch is of very very recent origin as compared to "Enoch the 7th from Adam". Thus even the Jews do not include that pseudepigraphal book in their Canon. I

It does not even make the cut for the apocrypha by Jerome's standard.

There is no "Angels commit fornication" or "Angels marry people" in all of scripture.



Not in the actual Bible.

In Jude 1 the subject is contemporaries with Jude - apostates, corrupt individuals that had inserted themselves into the church. James compares them to the unfaithful Israel who died in the desert, to the angels which fell in heaven from the pristine estate, to the men of Sodom and Gomorrha who gave themselves over to fornication and strange flesh -- and the cities around them did the same thing as did Sodom and Gomorrha.

Jude 1

3. ...it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

4 For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

5 I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.[/QUOTE]
Interesting ideas.

But the fact is that even Josephus stated that all the Jewish canon was finalized and kept in the Temple - for over 400 years - Enoch has never been included - not even by the Jews. The fact that they knew of such a pseudepigriphal book is not disputed.



Well he does not say that in the letter of Jude.



1. No scripture is given as a warning to angels.
2. No Bible text says that Angels married humans either before the flood or after.
3. There are Nephilim before and after the flood - because Noah was Nephilim.

==============================

And of course a few commentaries point this out.


7 Even as Sodom and Gomorrha, and the cities about them in like manner, giving themselves over to fornication, and going after strange flesh, are set forth for an example, suffering the vengeance of eternal fire.



J-F-B Jamieson, Fausset, Brown

From: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/jfb/Jud/Jud_001.cfm

It seems to me more natural to take "sons of God" ( Gen 6:2 ) of the Sethites, than of angels, who, as "spirits," do not seem capable of carnal connection. The parallel, 2Pe 2:4, plainly refers to the fall of the apostate angels. And "in like manner to these," Jud 1:7, refers to the inhabitants of Sodom and Gomorrah, "the cities about them" sinning "in like manner" as "they" did [ESTIUS and CALVIN]. Even if Greek "these," Jud 1:7, refer to the angels, the sense of "in like manner as these" will be, not that the angels carnally fornicated with the daughters of men, but that their ambition, whereby their affections went away from God and they fell, is in God's view a sin of like kind spiritually as Sodom's going away from God's order of nature after strange flesh; the sin of the apostate angels after their kind is analogous to that of the human Sodomites after their kind


Matthew Henry on Jude 1:7

From: http://www.blueletterbible.org/Comm/mhc/Jud/Jud_001.cfm

3. The apostle here calls to our remembrance the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, v. 7. Even as, etc. It is in allusion to the destruction of Pentapolis, or the five cities, that the miseries of the damned are set forth by a lake that burneth with fire and brimstone; they were guilty of abominable wickedness, not to be named or thought of but with the utmost abhorrence and detestation; their ruin is a particular warning to all people to take heed of, and fly from, fleshly lusts that war against the soul, 1 Pt. 2:11. "These lusts consumed the Sodomites with fire from heaven, and they are now suffering the vengeance of eternal fire; therefore take heed, imitate not their sins, lest the same plagues overtake you as did them. God is the same holy, just, pure Being now as then; and can the beastly pleasures of a moment make amends for your suffering the vengeance of eternal fire? Stand in awe, therefore, and sin not,' Ps. 4:4.

The Hebrew word transliterated "laqach" means: "to take, get, fetch, lay hold of, seize, receive, acquire, buy, bring, marry, take a wife, snatch, take away", and the "sons of God/ben Elohym "laqach" bath Adam/daughters of Adam....."
Moses wrote that, which Moses knew because it is taught about in the Book of Enoch;

Moses never quotes the book of Enoch - neither does any other Bible writer in the OT. That is interesting because Moses does get quoted ... just not the one writer that Alford thinks had written before Moses. The book of very very late origin not even in the Jewish Canon and not even in Jerome's list of the Apocrypha.


and also, Moses knew the giants were in Canaan, among other places in his own day,

All agree that giants existed before and after the flood - that is because Noah gets off the boat - and Noah like all those before the flood is Nephilim.

No text says Angels have sex -- and none says they had sex with women and none says that if they do they create giants and nothing at all about that after the flood. But we have "sons of God" -- "as many as received him to them He gave the right to be called the sons of God" John 1. So also in Gen 6:1 they are the descendents of Seth -- "sons of God" the people of God.

"The remnant of the giants" that existed in Canaan which Moses wrote of were of the spirits of the fallen ones, for the "remnant of" is the "residue of", and speaks of the evil spirits they were of, because they were not of the "remnant of/residue of" the one Adam spirit, of which He made all the Adam creation by making the male and female "one, having a residue of the [Adam] spirit, because he sought godly seed" =human being sons of God [Malachi 2:15].

Both the long age life span AND the giant stature of mankind diminished after the flood. Abraham does not complain about either because he too is roughly the same in stature. But later we see disparity some retain the trait while it has washed out entirely from others. So David fights a giant. So kings in battle fight giants in isolated cultures. Nothing there about angels having babies with women.

in Christ,
Bob
 
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BobRyan

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Why? Pure fiction? It makes more sense than God and Satan working together. Why would the evil ones rebel if they knew the truth? Why would any angel who truly knew the Father join Satan? It only makes sense if they were free will beings who are not God, less than God, with power and authority to "fool the whole world."

What's you explanation?

Agreed - no "God and Satan working together"

As for another explanation

Well there is this explanation --
Sunday at 8:46 AM #43

And this one
Saturday at 8:36 AM #36

And of course this one -
Sunday at 8:59 AM #44
 
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BobRyan

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The Universal Father delegates creative powers and authorities in his Sons, who in turn entrust their subordinate beings with administrative powers and authorities all the way down to the various orders of angels and other celestial classes of unseen beings.

For celestial beings the Universal Father is a matter of faith as well. They know their creator Son as he represents the unseen Father.

Lucifer, a very high administrator fell in love with his own brilliance, lost faith in the unseen Father and launched a rebellion against the Son's rule. He attempted a coup.

So, the reason for any beings to join Lucifer in his rebellion would be that they believed in his declaration, his conclusions, they trusted him, they could not conceive that such a high being or brilliance could be wrong.

That much is true.

But the end here is a problem.

In their deluded minds and hearts they came to view the Son, aka Jesus, as the enemy who was perpetuating a fraud by maintaining unjust rule in the name of a fictitious unseen paradise Father.

Demons were just little trouble making punk rebels who could do no more then enter unstable minds and cause them to flail about.

1. God the Father is visible to the angels. Christ said of even the guardian angels of small children "they do always behold the face of my Father who is in heaven" Matt 18:10

Demons are fallen angels as the devil is the fallen Lucifer whose name is changed to Satan.
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Satan has no power to do anything unless he is given it by his Creator.
He cannot curse unless there is legal cause, and God gives him the legal right to curse, from Genesis 3:15 the dust they "eat" is the flesh, by entering it as "corruption", and the belly they go in is Sheol/the pit of earth, which they have dominion over the souls who go there -but Jesus led the righteous captive souls out of there when He rose from there after delivering "all sin to Azazel", which was laid on His soul to deliver "To Azazel" [wrongly translated as "scapegoat], who was chained there and who was to "receive all sin" [as Noah wrote in a fragment of the Book of Enoch], in the "70th generation".
Those souls whom Jesus led out of the captivity of the first death of separation from the Glory had waited in rest, separated from the wicked, until the Day of Atonement, as Enoch had written about them and as Jesus corroborated in Luke 16.

The evil spirits in heaven are created to do what they do, and their rewards are the prey/the victims whom they get to believe their lies, and who act upon them without repentance -and only those born in Adam can repent: fallen Watchers cannot receive forgiveness. Thereby; the unworthy are separated from the Creator for eternity in the second death, and by their own deeds of believing the lies of the murderer who was and is the Prince of Darkness, and acting on them, they go to their own rewards for the deeds done in their bodies, and are tormented forever by the satans whom they made themselves subject to.

The myth that there is a fallen "cherub" named "lucifer is debunked by the Jews themselves, whose language does not give the word "light bearer" as a proper noun.
The myth of a fallen cherub named lucifer is not based upon the doctrine of the Living Oracles or of the prophets of God: from Enoch the prophet's revelations to the closing of the book of the Revelation of Jesus Christ, there is no such doctrine anywhere. It is a lie formed by ignorant men whose ancestors cast out the wisdom given to Enoch to write for all his descendants.....of whom are all born in Adam since the flood; but not all cast it out; it is canon [man made rule] in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church and was kept in the "bible" which word means "collection of books", of the sons of Zadok, the priesthood line from Levi who are written of in Ezekiel and who are called the "Essenes", and who left their manuscripts in the caves at Qumram, to be discovered in these last days.
Enoch wrote his book for "those who will be living in the last days, when the great tribulation is upon the world", as the opening of it declares he did; and which opening Jude, womb brother of Jesus the Christ come in flesh, quoted from.

Enoch also wrote of the rapture of the saints before that great tribulation, in chapter 50, and of those who are saved by believing in the name of the Son of Man but who do not get the glory -they go through the tribulation, and some are martyred in it, but all are raised in the end of it as part [the gleanings of the harvest], of the first "resurrection to life"; -and then there is no more resurrection "to life" ever, and the earth no more covers her slain, as Isaiah wrote in 26: 19-21; and all who die in the millennial reign die the "second death" as "accursed", and go straight to the Lake of Fire -and do not stand for any more judgment at the end of it; for in that "Day" The Glory dwells among men [Ezekiel 44]; "tabernacling among men" to fulfill the last of the seven Oracles of Messiah's Person and work, and "the earth no more covers her slain"...


The Dead Sea Scrolls corroborate the Word written in Enoch and the Torah and the prophets after, which teach of the unclean spirits in heaven who were created there to test, tempt, try the sons of men and the holy watcher angels.

After the flood, the descendants of the sons of Noah could not take the afflictions put upon them by the curse God gave the disembodied offspring of the fallen watchers, and sought Noah to pray to God for their deliverance from them and to have them cast into Sheol....God listened to Noah and was going to throw them all there, but the "Prince of the Satans/Prince Mastema", reasoned with God that he could not do his work unless God left some for his use [weeding out the unworthy, who become his "food and drink in the Lake of Fire, to torment them forever]. God listened to that reasoning and left one tenth of them on earth until Messiah sets up His millennial reign. That is as found in the record come down in the Book of Jubilees, which is also in the DSS and in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. The Hebrew word "Mastema" means "satans".

The demons/evil spirits roam earth, seeking bodies to use to do their evil deeds through and to afflict and torment, and have the legal authority from God to do so until they are gathered by the angels at the coming of the "Anointed Holy One of God/Christ/Messiah" to reign over His ransomed kingdom; which He will cleanse of all evil for the millennial Sabbath reign of it, by sending His angels to gather all the tares up and throw them into the fire -the Lake of Fire; where they will be tormented by satans there, forever; because they are the "bastard seed/darnel/tares" spirits from the fallen watchers, who had illegal Adam flesh to dwell in, which flesh for them was created by the unlawful union of fallen Watchers and daughters of Adam..Their bodies "will not rise, they are the dead/rapha -they will not rise", as Scripture states, but they seek bodies of human beings to control for evil.
The satans do not have bodies, they are evil spirits in heaven. The demons are evil spirits on earth and cannot enter heaven.
This is all in the Book of Enoch.
Enoch wrote all that before the flood, and it is for the generation who will be living in the great tribulation.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/was-the-book-of-enoch-written-by-the-biblical-enoch.7643917/
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-book-on-bible-prophecy-and-the-book-of-enoch.7411540/


The two men of the Gaderenes [Gentiles, in fact] who were tormented by a legion of evil spirits/unclean spirits/demons, knew the time appointed was not come for their being thrown into the Lake of Fire for torment, there, forever, at the hand of the evil angels created in heaven called "satans". They knew this because Enoch delivered the Word of God to their fathers, the fallen watchers, telling the doom of their offspring and their doom.

Those demons who called themselves "legion" said to the Holy One of God/Messiah/Jesus Christ; "I know you, you holy One of God, are you come to torment us before the [appointed] time"?
Their appointed time to be tormented is when Jesus comes to set up His milolennial Sabbath reign, at the end of the second " great consummation of sin on earth" which Enoch wrote was to come, before even the flood which was the first "consummation of sin on earth" which Enoch wrote of, came.
 
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Colter

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Satan has no power to do anything unless he is given it by his Creator.
He cannot curse unless there is legal cause, and God gives him the legal right to curse.
the evil spirits in heaven are created to do what they do, and their rewards are the prey they get to believe their lies.
Therefore; the unworthy are separated from the Creator for eternity in the second death, and by their own deeds of believing the lies of the murderer who was and is the Prince of Darkness, they go to their own rewards and are tormented forever by the satans they made themselves subject to.
The myth that there is a fallen "cherub" named "lucifer is debunked by the Jews themselves, whose language does not give the word "light bearer" as a proper noun.
The myth of a fallen cherub named lucifer is not based upon the doctrine of the Living Oracles or of the prophets of God: from Enoch the prophet to the closing of the book of Revelation, there is no such doctrine anywhere. It is a lie formed by ignorant men whose ancestors cast out the wisdom given to Enoch to write for all his descendants.....of whom are all born in Adam since the flood -but not all cast it out; it is canon [man made rule] in the Ethiopian Orthodox Churh and was kept in the "bible" which word means "collection of books", of the sons of Zadok/the priesthood line who are written of in Ezekiel and who are called the "essenes" who left their manuscripts in the caves at Qumram, to be discovered in these last days.
Enoch wrote his book for those who will be living in the last days, when the great tribulation is upon the world, as the opening of it declares he did, and which opening Jude, womb brother of Jesus the Christ come in flesh, quoted from.
Enoch also wrote of the rapture of the saints before that great tribulation, in chapter 50, and of those who are saved by believing in the name of the Son of Man but who do not get the glory -they go through the tribulation, and some are martyred in it, but all are raised in the end of it as part [the gleanings of the harvest], of the first "resurrection to life" -and then there is no more resurrection "to life" ever, and the earth no more covers her slain, as Isaiah wrote in 26: 19-21, and all who die in the millennial reign die the second death as "accursed", and go straight to the LAke of Fire and do not stand for any more judgment at the end of it, for in that "Day" he Glory dwells among men [Ezekiel 44]; "tabernacling among men" to fulfill the last of the seven Oracles of Messiah's Person and work and "the earth no more covers her slain"...


The Dead Sea Scrolls corroborate the Word written in Enoch and the Torah and the prophets after, which teach of the unclean spirits in heaven who were created there to test, tempt, try the sons of men and the holy watcher angels.

After the flood, the descendants of the sons of Noah could not take the afflictions put upon them by the curse God gave the disembodied offspring of the fallen watchers and sought Noah to pray to God for their deliverance from them and to have them cast into Sheol....God listened to Noah and was going to throw them all there, but the "Prince of the Satans/Prince Mastema, reasoned with God that he could not do his work unless God left some for his use [weeding out the unworthy, who become his "food and drink in the Lake of Fire, to torment them forever]. God listened to that reasoning and left one thenth of them on earth until Messiah sets up His millennial reign. .. That is found in the record come down in the Book of Jubilees, which is also in the DSS and in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. The Hebrew word "Mastema" means "satans".

The demons/evil spirits roam earth, seeking bodies to use to do their evil deeds and to afflict and torment, and have the legal authority from God to do so until they are gathered by the angels at the coming of the "Anointed Holy One of God/Christ/Messiah" to reign over His ransomed kingdom, which He will cleanse of all evil for the millennial Sabbath reign of it, by sending His angels to gather all the tares up and throw them into the fire -the Lake of Fire, where they will be tormented by satans there, forever, because they are the "bastard seed/darnel/tares" spirits from the fallen watchers who had illegal Adam flesh to dwell in, which was created by the unlawful union of fallen Watchers and daughters of Adam..their bodies will not rise, they are the dead/rapha -they will not rise, as Scripture states, but they seek bodies of human beings to control for evil.
The satans do not have bodies, they are evil spirits in heaven. The demons are evil spirits on earth and cannot enter heaven.
This is all in the Book of Enoch.
Enoch wrote all that before the flood, and it is for the generation who will be living in the great tribulation.
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/was-the-book-of-enoch-written-by-the-biblical-enoch.7643917/
http://www.christianforums.com/threads/new-book-on-bible-prophecy-and-the-book-of-enoch.7411540/


The two men of the Gaderenes [Gentiles, in fact] who were tormented by a legion of evil spirits/unclean spirits/demons, knew the time appointed was not come for their being thrown into the Lake of Fire for torment, there, forever, at the hand of the evil angels created in heaven called "satans". They knew this because Enoch delivered the Word of God to their fathers, the fallen watchers, telling the doom of their offspring and their doom.

Those demons who called themselves "legion" said to the Holy One of God/Messiah/Jesus Christ; "I know you, you holy One of God, are you come to torment us before the [appointed] time"?
Their appointed time to be tormented is when Jesus comes to set up His milolennial Sabbath reign, at the end of the second " great consummation of sin on earth" which Enoch wrote was to come, before even the flood which was the first "consummation of sin on earth" which Enoch wrote of, came.

The Father is not of two opposing wills, one evil and another good.
 
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CalmRon

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The Father is not of two opposing wills, one evil and another good.
Read job and ask yourself, did God give permission for Satan to do what he did and even set a limit for him each time. So Satan has been allowed to do what he doing, because the Sovereign God said he could
 
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Colter

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Read job and ask yourself, did God give permission for Satan to do what he did and even set a limit for him each time. So Satan has been allowed to do what he doing, because the Sovereign God said he could

Job is a parable written during the age when they thought God was responsible for both good and evil.
 
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BobRyan

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Read job and ask yourself, did God give permission for Satan to do what he did and even set a limit for him each time. So Satan has been allowed to do what he doing, because the Sovereign God said he could

God is sovereign of all the universe but it does not mean that God is partnering with Satan. Christ said to Peter "Satan has desired permission to sift you like wheat but I have prayed that your faith fail not" -- Satan and Christ are at war - as Rev 12 point out with the Devil, the dragon (and his angels).... vs Michael "and his angels"

Satan is the enemy of God and in Jude 1 we have God saying "The Lord rebuke you Satan"... in Matt 4 Christ said to Satan "get thee behind me Satan" - same also in Matt 16.

In Matt 12 Christ states emphatically that a house divided against itself will not stand... this was to point out that Satan would not possibly work in Christ to do miracles and that Christ would not partner with Satan.

I think we should go with the words of Christ on this one. :)
 
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BobRyan

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Job is a parable written during the age when they thought God was responsible for both good and evil.

Job is not a parable - but it demonstrates that Satan keeps urging that God strike Job - and in every case God responds with His giving permission to Satan and only then can Satan act.

In the initial exchange God states that Job is a great example of a born-again saint - and Satan said that this is because God put up a wall around Job that Satan cannot get past -- this is protection that God still provides today for the saints. But Satan argued for a test case - and God accepted the challenge.
 
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BobRyan

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Satan has no power to do anything unless he is given it by his Creator.
He cannot curse unless there is legal cause, and God gives him the legal right to curse, from Genesis 3:15 the dust they "eat" is the flesh, by entering it as "corruption", and the belly they go in is Sheol/the pit of earth, which they have dominion over the souls who go there

That is not what Gen 3:15 says.

Gen 3:15 is a curse on the serpent - the snake ... turns out snakes do crawl on their belly.
Gen 3:15-18 is the curse placed on the snake, the woman (the pain in childbirth) and mankind.

However There is a spiritual significance in that the promised Messiah would kill the "serpent of old" which is Satan's title in Rev 12 and in Gen 3 that prediction is made.

And of course there is only one Lucifer who then fell and became Satan - and there is only one Satan, and in Matt 4 he is at war with God.

The evil spirits in heaven are created to do what they do,

Not at all true. Nothing of that sort found in the actual Bible.

Thereby; the unworthy are separated from the Creator for eternity in the second death, and by their own deeds of believing the lies of the murderer who was and is the Prince of Darkness, and acting on them, they go to their own rewards for the deeds done in their bodies, and are tormented forever by the satans whom they made themselves subject to.

Not a single Bible text says that the wicked go to hell (lake of fire) to be tormented by Satan. Rather both they and Satan go there to be punished by God. Not punished by each other.

Not a single Bible text says there is more than one Satan.

===================================

Out of curiosity - since none of that is in the Bible where is your enthusiasm on this point coming from?

None of us today are faced with giants -- the offspring of angels in some myths.

None of us today are faced with angels having weddings with humans - an idea that some myths claim we would be confronted with in real life.

None of us today pray to Lucifer nor any other angel nor do we set times aside to honor him.

So aside from an "interesting fact" - any other motivation?

in Christ,

Bob
 
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yeshuasavedme

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The Father is not of two opposing wills, one evil and another good.
Luke 22: 31,32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1 Kings 22: 19-23 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

1 Samuel 19: 9 And the evil spirit from the Lord was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand. 10 And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin: but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1 Samuel 16:4 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him

1 Samuel 16:1 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.


God sent satans/belials, to smite the firstborn of Egypt. Psalm 78:49-51 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

The "Destroye"r is Abaddon, the angel of death, a Satan set over Sheol below who actually "feeds Sheol her prey, whom she holds captive"...., and who does God's will....but he really wants to go always beyond it....

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Every time you read of an earthquake that raises the ocean floor by measured miles or parts of miles, know that under "the foundations of the hills" in the ocean, Sheol has enlarged herself to receive a great amount of souls, like in the earthquake of 2001, when 225,000 at least, were killed in the tsunamis....mostly from major Islamic strongholds that trained Jihadists to go against God's "namesake people of the New Man name", for "the curse causeless does not come"
Pro 26:2 As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

According to the history "Book of the Upright", Job was an Uzite of the land of Uz, and a contemporary of Reuel, the Midianite. Both men served as [wise] counselors to the Pharaoah, from their own lands which were dominated by Egypt, before Moses was born. Job's history in the Bible is recorded without mentioning his transgressions of the past, for he was righteous by the time he was made a spectacle to all heaven, when Satan was challenged to "test him".
Job lost everything: health, children, riches, possessions, and the companionship of his wife as a helpmeet, who told him to "curse God and die", in her scorn.... God would not have allowed that test to try Job if he had not known Job would indeed pass the test.....God challenged Satan to the test of Job.

But it was Job's "transgressions tied up in a bag" that caused him to fear losing it all. His transgression of counsel to Pharaoh caused the death of the Hebrew male children who were slain at the hands of the midwives....he had no more to do before the court when that did not work and Ba'alim counseled drowning them, against Reuel's wise counsel to not do that. At that time, Reuel departed, and later became Moses' father-in-law.

Probably Moses recorded the saga of Job, and I personally believe he redacted the histories of the Patriarchs in writing the "Book of The Upright", but that is my own studied opinion, to which I am entitled; no matter what others choose to believe....
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Not a single Bible text says that the wicked go to hell (lake of fire) to be tormented by Satan. Rather both they and Satan go there to be punished by God. Not punished by each other.

Not a single Bible text says there is more than one Satan.

Not a single Bible text states that the satans go to the Lake of Fire to be
punished", rather, they are the "Tormentors" who torment their victims/prey, in the Lake of Fire, which is the "Outer Darkness" and the Prince of Darkness had that place made "for him" and his angels [evil angels/evil; spirits in heaven], from the beginning! - it is his own "kingdom".
That is Bible!
Evil angels are "Belials/Satans, that God sent against Egypt....that is Bible text!
 
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yeshuasavedme

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Sheol is the belly of the earth, the pit, where souls go when they depart the flesh to await their judgment. Before the Atonement, righteous souls went there to wait in comfort for the Day of the Acceptable Atonement, when they would be set free from the first death, which is separation from the Father of Glory which all Adam is born in, since the fall...
The angels who sinned by fornication were chained there. The leader of the pack is named Azazel, in Enoch, and "to him all sin was to be given/ascribed" in the 70th generation, as is written in a fragment Noah wrote which is included n the Book of Enoch.
The whole Oracle of the Atonement foreshadowed the Day when that would be done, and Isaiah 53 tells us; "YHWH laid on Him the iniquities of us all"; which happened on the Day of the acceptable Atonement which finished that Work once, for all, and the Father turned from Him, then, and He tasted our death of separation...then He died of a broken heart, and took our sins and iniquities to Sheol below, to "ascribe/give them "To Azazel". Azazel is chained there with his companions, and because the wisdom of the Book of Enoch has been cast aside, the English translators translated the proper noun, "Azazel" as "scapegoat"....But those who read the wisdom Enoch wrote for us to know these things, know that to Azazel all sin was given on the Day of the Acceptable Atonement, and the first death is ended forever for whosoever will believe, and we go immediately into the presence of the Glory on high if we depart our flesh bodies before the rapture of the living and remaining at the time of the call to be gathered together unto Him, in the air/heaven, in transformed bodies of the New Man image.....
He then led captivity captive and ascended with all the righteous made perfect souls, to take them to Zion above....no longer do the souls of the righteous descend to Sheol but ascend to Zion above, to be in Paradise, where the former thief on the cross went to, where the Son of Man always has been, even when He was come in flesh of New Creation....

Isaiah 53: Who hath believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the Lord revealed?

2 For he shall grow up before him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground: he hath no form nor comeliness; and when we shall see him, there is no beauty that we should desire him.

3 He is despised and rejected of men; a man of sorrows, and acquainted with grief: and we hid as it were our faces from him; he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he hath borne our griefs, and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted.

5 But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.

6 All we like sheep have gone astray; we have turned every one to his own way; and the Lord hath laid on him the iniquity of us all.

7 He was oppressed, and he was afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth: he is brought as a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so he openeth not his mouth.

8 He was taken from prison and from judgment: and who shall declare his generation? for he was cut off out of the land of the living: for the transgression of my people was he stricken.

9 And he made his grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death; because he had done no violence, neither was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it pleased the Lord to bruise him; he hath put him to grief: when thou shalt make his soul an offering for sin, he shall see his seed, he shall prolong his days, and the pleasure of the Lord shall prosper in his hand.

11 He shall see of the travail of his soul, and shall be satisfied: by his knowledge shall my righteous servant justify many; for he shall bear their iniquities.

12 Therefore will I divide him a portion with the great, and he shall divide the spoil with the strong; because he hath poured out his soul unto death: and he was numbered with the transgressors; and he bare the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
 
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Colter

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Job is not a parable - but it demonstrates that Satan keeps urging that God strike Job - and in every case God responds with His giving permission to Satan and only then can Satan act.

In the initial exchange God states that Job is a great example of a born-again saint - and Satan said that this is because God put up a wall around Job that Satan cannot get past -- this is protection that God still provides today for the saints. But Satan argued for a test case - and God accepted the challenge.

What a sad concept of deity.

Here the parable of Job has God taking part in tormenting his own child:

Job 1:16

16 "While he was still speaking, another messenger arrived with this news: “The fire of God has fallen from heaven and burned up your sheep and all the shepherds. I am the only one who escaped to tell you.”​

I'm really glad that I don't live with this sort of conflicted concept of a God who grants permission to a devil but condemns him at the same time.
 
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Colter

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Luke 22: 31,32 And the Lord said, Simon, Simon, behold, Satan hath desired to have you, that he may sift you as wheat: But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

1 Kings 22: 19-23 Then Micaiah said, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on His throne, and all the host of heaven standing by, on His right hand and on His left. 20 And the Lord said, ‘Who will persuade Ahab to go up, that he may fall at Ramoth Gilead?’ So one spoke in this manner, and another spoke in that manner. 21 Then a spirit came forward and stood before the Lord, and said, ‘I will persuade him.’ 22 The Lord said to him, ‘In what way?’ So he said, ‘I will go out and be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.’ And the Lord said, ‘You shall persuade him, and also prevail. Go out and do so.’ 23 Therefore look! The Lord has put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these prophets of yours, and the Lord has declared disaster against you.”

1 Samuel 19: 9 And the evil spirit from the Lord was upon Saul, as he sat in his house with his javelin in his hand: and David played with his hand. 10 And Saul sought to smite David even to the wall with the javelin: but he slipped away out of Saul's presence, and he smote the javelin into the wall: and David fled, and escaped that night.

Judges 9:23 Then God sent an evil spirit between Abimelech and the men of Shechem; and the men of Shechem dealt treacherously with Abimelech:
1 Samuel 16:4 But the Spirit of the Lord departed from Saul, and an evil spirit from the Lord troubled him

1 Samuel 16:1 And Saul's servants said unto him, Behold now, an evil spirit from God troubleth thee.

1 Samuel 16:23
And it came to pass, when the evil spirit from God was upon Saul, that David took an harp, and played with his hand: so Saul was refreshed, and was well, and the evil spirit departed from him.


God sent satans/belials, to smite the firstborn of Egypt. Psalm 78:49-51 He cast upon them the fierceness of his anger, wrath, and indignation, and trouble, by sending evil angels among them.
He made a way to his anger; he spared not their soul from death, but gave their life over to the pestilence;
And smote all the firstborn in Egypt; the chief of their strength in the tabernacles of Ham:

The "Destroye"r is Abaddon, the angel of death, a Satan set over Sheol below who actually "feeds Sheol her prey, whom she holds captive"...., and who does God's will....but he really wants to go always beyond it....

Isa 5:14 Therefore hell hath enlarged herself, and opened her mouth without measure: and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it.

Every time you read of an earthquake that raises the ocean floor by measured miles or parts of miles, know that under "the foundations of the hills" in the ocean, Sheol has enlarged herself to receive a great amount of souls, like in the earthquake of 2001, when 225,000 at least, were killed in the tsunamis....mostly from major Islamic strongholds that trained Jihadists to go against God's "namesake people of the New Man name", for "the curse causeless does not come"
Pro 26:2 As the bird by wandering, as the swallow by flying, so the curse causeless shall not come.

Deu 32:22 For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains.

Heb 12:6 For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.

According to the history "Book of the Upright", Job was an Uzite of the land of Uz, and a contemporary of Reuel, the Midianite. Both men served as [wise] counselors to the Pharaoah, from their own lands which were dominated by Egypt, before Moses was born. Job's history in the Bible is recorded without mentioning his transgressions of the past, for he was righteous by the time he was made a spectacle to all heaven, when Satan was challenged to "test him".
Job lost everything: health, children, riches, possessions, and the companionship of his wife as a helpmeet, who told him to "curse God and die", in her scorn.... God would not have allowed that test to try Job if he had not known Job would indeed pass the test.....God challenged Satan to the test of Job.

But it was Job's "transgressions tied up in a bag" that caused him to fear losing it all. His transgression of counsel to Pharaoh caused the death of the Hebrew male children who were slain at the hands of the midwives....he had no more to do before the court when that did not work and Ba'alim counseled drowning them, against Reuel's wise counsel to not do that. At that time, Reuel departed, and later became Moses' father-in-law.

Probably Moses recorded the saga of Job, and I personally believe he redacted the histories of the Patriarchs in writing the "Book of The Upright", but that is my own studied opinion, to which I am entitled; no matter what others choose to believe....

In ancient times more primitive people believed God created evil and had Satan on a short leash. None of it makes any sense.
 
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Winepress777

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Why? Pure fiction? It makes more sense than God and Satan working together. Why would the evil ones rebel if they knew the truth? Why would any angel who truly knew the Father join Satan? It only makes sense if they were free will beings who are not God, less than God, with power and authority to "fool the whole world."

What's you explanation?
You'll never even get to first base in knowledge or wisdom or understanding if you preempt every statement as "It only makes sense"... That is where you meet your brick wall. The wisdom of man is foolishness with God. That is the only reason this thread even exists is because of the foolishness of man "demons disobeying God"... a ridiculous statement/question.
The BIBLE'S explanation is that Evil came into the world by one man's disobedience. Not from some person from another dimension that rebelled against God. That is science fiction. The only "evil ones" are these;

Genesis 6:5

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?
 
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Colter

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You'll never even get to first base in knowledge or wisdom or understanding if you preempt every statement as "It only makes sense"... That is where you meet your brick wall. The wisdom of man is foolishness with God. That is the only reason this thread even exists is because of the foolishness of man "demons disobeying God"... a ridiculous statement/question.
The BIBLE'S explanation is that Evil came into the world by one man's disobedience. Not from some person from another dimension that rebelled against God. That is science fiction. The only "evil ones" are these;

Genesis 6:5

The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

Romans 5:18
Therefore, as one trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all men.

Romans 5:12
Therefore, just as sin came into the world through one man, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all sinned—

Jeremiah 17:9
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?


Maybe it's you who is foolish believing that evil is good and good is evil? That God put's evil into people but then judges them for being evil? That God condemns Satan but then joins up with him to molest his children?

Trusting God doesn't mean believing ridiculous things that are unjust and untrue.

The Bible was written by holy men, some more holy than others. It reflects the age in which various parts were written as well as the intellect of the authors and redactors.

My Father in heaven is good and trust worthy, he has no need to partner with the devil.
 
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Winepress777

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Maybe it's you who is foolish believing that evil is good and good is evil? That God put's evil into people but then judges them for being evil? That God condemns Satan but then joins up with him to molest his children?

Trusting God doesn't mean believing ridiculous things that are unjust and untrue.

The Bible was written by holy men, some more holy than others. It reflects the age in which various parts were written as well as the intellect of the authors and redactors.

My Father in heaven is good and trust worthy, he has no need to partner with the devil.
Maybe it's foolish for you to assume silly things about me? Or God? You enjoy talking about "partnering with a devil"? What silliness is that? Only you have been talking about "ridiculous things" here. You have no comparative level of comprehension of who the Bible was written by if you are a follower of the Eurantia Book. I've read it. I know what's in it. Who are you trying to kid with your opinions? Who are you trying to "teach" something here? You have nothing so far but Star Wars Fairy Tales. Then you bloviate them on a "Christian" Forum as though you are an authority. You are entertaining at best
 
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