What promises would those be that the Church does not recieve? Is there a Jewish Church and a Gentile Church?
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Differences Between Post-Trib and Pre-Wrath
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Rize
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God made promises to the Jewish nation in the Old Testament. However, they may not be related to the end-times scenario.
Basically, all of Israel is supposed to get "saved" at some point. Apparently at the end of the 7 year period is the time (but before the 30 + 45 days).
So with the rapture occuring before that and the Jews recognizing Christ as their Messiah ("they will look upon the one they have peirced and mourn for him...")... that separates them. Whether or not the 144,000 are among that group or separate from them. It doesn't really matter. The point is, there are supposed to be a bunch of "unsaved" Jews around after the rapture who get saved before the end. Those are the people who must persevere to the end of the 7 years.
Basically, all of Israel is supposed to get "saved" at some point. Apparently at the end of the 7 year period is the time (but before the 30 + 45 days).
So with the rapture occuring before that and the Jews recognizing Christ as their Messiah ("they will look upon the one they have peirced and mourn for him...")... that separates them. Whether or not the 144,000 are among that group or separate from them. It doesn't really matter. The point is, there are supposed to be a bunch of "unsaved" Jews around after the rapture who get saved before the end. Those are the people who must persevere to the end of the 7 years.
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What Rize says I believe is the correct application regarding the nation of Israel as to those left (approx. 1/3 of all Jews, for the other 2/3 are destroyed for their unbelief). For you see, the entire Church has already been received unto the Lord and is located in the "new" Jerusalem suspended above the earth and connected by the throne of Jesus.
Therefore, who is left for the Messanic Kingdom?
It will be the 1/3 of believing Jews and those gentiles who did not accept the mark of the beast, assisted the Jews during the tribulation, and some how survived the "Day of the Lord" who will be judged at the sheep/goat judgment. It is fantastic to imagine and what the events will be forthcoming in the future. It is these two groups, the 1/3 believing Jews and the small minority of gentiles who will repopulate the earth for the Lord to rule.
I am sorry I do not have my Scriptural references. I am writing this before I start work.
Therefore, who is left for the Messanic Kingdom?
It will be the 1/3 of believing Jews and those gentiles who did not accept the mark of the beast, assisted the Jews during the tribulation, and some how survived the "Day of the Lord" who will be judged at the sheep/goat judgment. It is fantastic to imagine and what the events will be forthcoming in the future. It is these two groups, the 1/3 believing Jews and the small minority of gentiles who will repopulate the earth for the Lord to rule.
I am sorry I do not have my Scriptural references. I am writing this before I start work.
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Note again that Jesus didn't say "no one will know the day" (future tense) of the 2nd coming but "no one knows the day" (present tense in translation, perfect tense in Greek).
"Be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh" (Matthew 24:44). I believe Matthew 24:44 is a warning against our becoming unfaithful, for Jesus will come like a thief for us only IF we fall asleep spiritually (Revelation 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 5:4-6). Otherwise we would be saying that as long as we're ready and thinking he will come he can't possibly come.
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May not be? Are you sure of what you are talking about here? Romans, especially Chapters 9-11 lets us know the condition of Israel, the ingrafting and the fulfillment of the promises.
For I do not desire brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel UNTIL the fullness of the Gentiles HAS COME IN. And so Israel will be saved, as it is written
romans 11:26-26). See also Luke 21:24...And Jerusalem will be trampled by Gentiles, UNTIL the times of the Gentiles are FULFILLED.(Dan.9:27, 12:7).Are you suggesting the olive tree has two roots?
do not boast against the branches. But if you do boast, remember that you do not support the root, but the root supports you. You will say then, "Branches were broken off that i might be grafted in."
One olive tree Rize, not separated. Israel is grafted back in when the times of the Gentiles are FULFILLED.
The promises ARE directly 'related to the end-times scenario.'
We are sons of God, sons of the resurrection. A new covenant does not replace the old, but fulfulls. For He is not the God of the dead but of the living, for all live to Him.
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So, it's fair to say then that you are advocating the destruction of two-thirds of the entire Jewish Population?
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Olive tree?
I thought all you end timers say Israel is properly understood as the "Fig Free" when it comes to prophesy.
Which is it?
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Ok, will wait on those, please do find them.
Jews that beleive and a handful of gentiles that survive? Matthew 25 sais: When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inhereit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:........
That sais, when He comes in His glory,(not before or in secret) that ALL nations are gathered, and separated. Nothing about a few who 'survived'. It is also at this time, and this time only, that the sheep, not part of them, not sheep and a bride, but sheep, INHERIT the kingdom prepared. The inheritance is complete and total, at one time.
Quite.
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The parable of the fig tree? Like in Matthew? I beleive that is talking about 'watching' for seasonal events. Like when the fig tree grows new leaves, you know summer is near. Likewise, when you see the things happening that Jesus is talking about there, you know the time is near. REferring to the time of the end.
I was referring to Romans where Paul is talking about Israel being branches of an olive tree, and also Gentiles being grafted into it.
And if some of the branches were broken off, and you, being a wild olive tree, were grafted among them, and with them became a partaker of the root and fatness of the olive tree, do not boast against the branches.
For if you were cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and were grafted contrary to nature into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, who are natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree?
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Btw, regarding the olive tree/branches, the position that Rize is assuming, is that somehow the olive tree is uprooted, replanted in heaven, while the yet to be grafted natural branches remain on earth. Huh?
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Rize
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postrib, I marvel at your ability to ignore clear teachings of scripture Don't you think that your theology might be tainting this just a bit. Why don't you, again, carefully read this quote. Especially the part I underline.
Mathew 24:42-44 -- "Therefore <I><B>keep watch</B></I>, because <B>you do not know on what day your Lord will come</B>. But understand this: <B>If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch</B> and would not have let his house be broken into. <B>So you also must be ready</B>, <B>because</B> <B>the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him</B>."
Jesus did not say: keep watch so you will know when your Lord will come. If you keep watch, you will see the thief when he comes, and you'll be ready for him.
You will not know the day or hour. Postrib, please, carefully check your theological baggage at the door. I may be wrong about everything else, but I'm not wrong about this.
Revelation 3:3 literally says that if you don't watch, you will not know "what sort of hour". This implies that believers will know what "sort" of hour. We will know the seasons if we are astute, but never the day and hour.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 says that if we keep watch, Jesus will not come as a thief for us. This is most certainly true. We will be very glad to see him when he comes, but we still will not know the hour.
If Jesus had meant to tell the apostles that they didn't need to know the hour, but tha other might, why didn't he say so? Intead, he went to great lengths to say that only the Father knows the day and hour. The other verses above clearly demonstrate that it will stay that way.
Don't you think that your theology might be tainting this just a bit. Why don't you, again, carefully read this quote. Especially the part I underline.Mathew 24:42-44 -- "Therefore <I><B>keep watch</B></I>, because <B>you do not know on what day your Lord will come</B>. But understand this: <B>If the owner of the house had known at what time of night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch</B> and would not have let his house be broken into. <B>So you also must be ready</B>, <B>because</B> <B>the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him</B>."
Jesus did not say: keep watch so you will know when your Lord will come. If you keep watch, you will see the thief when he comes, and you'll be ready for him.
You will not know the day or hour. Postrib, please, carefully check your theological baggage at the door. I may be wrong about everything else, but I'm not wrong about this.
Revelation 3:3 literally says that if you don't watch, you will not know "what sort of hour". This implies that believers will know what "sort" of hour. We will know the seasons if we are astute, but never the day and hour.
1 Thessalonians 5:4-6 says that if we keep watch, Jesus will not come as a thief for us. This is most certainly true. We will be very glad to see him when he comes, but we still will not know the hour.
If Jesus had meant to tell the apostles that they didn't need to know the hour, but tha other might, why didn't he say so? Intead, he went to great lengths to say that only the Father knows the day and hour. The other verses above clearly demonstrate that it will stay that way.
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Yeah, that is my understanding as well, especially since Luke includes "All the trees" in his account, not just the fig.
However, Over and over it is claimed that the "Fig putting forth it's leaves" is a direct prophesy about the reformation of Israel in 1948. How they come up with this I do not know, especially in light of Lukes account as I mentioned.
Israel is indeed the Olive Tree according to scripture, and the parable of the fig tree is just a plain ole' every day fig tree, and as Luke points out, is not to be understood as unique in any way from "all trees".
Sorry to veere so far of topic.......
carry on.
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How do they come up with alot of things I do not know. The bible refers to 'decieving oneself' which means in turn....to reason it out within ones own mind.
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I am sorry, I omitted an important detail about the 2/3 destruction of the Jewish population. This relates only to the Nation of Israel. This begins at the time of Anti-Christ's revelation claiming his "godhood." The prophecy is found in Zechariah, it is:
"And it shall come to pass, [that] in all the land, saith the LORD, two parts therein shall be cut off [and] die; but the third shall be left therein." (Zech. 13:18)
Now let's think about this a minute. Do you really think that there will be a billion people to judge after the Tribulation AND the Day of the Lord? The greatest judgment the world will ever know, the earth is toast and these folks are trembling, and just because there are "nations" doesn't mean millions. Now why do you think it will take 1,000 years to repopulate the earth, the Lord has to have time to rule what? Rubble? No. Those that recieve the "inheritance" is that right to live under Messianic rule and repopulate the earth. Initially, it will be only the few believers in Jesus who are left. People are known to copulate like rabbits, but c'mon.
It will be just like the analogy of Noah. Remember, he had only 8 folks. Jesus has prolly a few more to do the job of repopulation.
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There is no scriptural basis whatsoever for repopulation of the earth by ANY believers after Jesus returns so i do not think it will take 1000 years or 1 second. Its a resurrection that precedes inheritance. The great judgement takes place AFTER the thousand years of satans confinement. There are 6000 years worth of Christians at the 1st resurrection, repopulation is not mentioned, and if it were, surely it would be written here?
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days. But you go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. Dan.12:12-13
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power....Rev.20:6
Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption. 1Cor15
You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of God in heaven. Matt.22:29
That was pretty far off topic, and even farther fetched.
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Well, I certainly disagree!!! Do you understand the pre-wrath position or is it that you take the post-trib view? If you are a pre-wrath proponnet, then what I stated makes all the sense in the world. In fact, it really could not be any other way and make sense. Yes, I understand that we both could make sense and still be completely wrong.
So then tell me, who is that Jesus is ruling in his Messianic kingdom? Himself? He doesn't rule the "Bride" she is not on the earth. Kings rule subjects and servants, so then who is it?
Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty five days. But you go your way till the end; for you shall rest, and will arise to your inheritance at the end of the days. Dan.12:12-13
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Who is "he" speaking of here in Daniel? It is a collective noun those that survive on earth the from the last half of the Tribulation (1260 days) + the Day of the Lord (and additional 30 days) + the Restoration Period of the earth (another additional 45 days) = 1335 days. That is why they have been "blesseed!" What those folks have been thru!!! They are the blessed ones whom the Lord rules righteously in his Messianic Kingdom and repopulate the earth.
Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power....Rev.20:6
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Yep. This verse relates to the Great White Throne judgment at the END of the the Lord's first 1000 year rule. And your point is?
Now this I say brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; nor does corruption inherit incorruption.1Cor15
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Yep. At the sixth seal, Christians both dead and alive, will be otta here!!!
And your point again is? You are mistaken, not knowing the Scriptures nor the power of God. For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like the angels of God in heaven. Matt.22:29
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So we will not have marital relationship like we do now on earth. Again, your point is?
That was pretty far off topic, and even farther fetched.
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It is not that far off topic. I would suggest you read "The Sign" by Robert Van Kampen. The pre-wrath view is explained in more detail there.
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Jesus reigns, and His bride with Him, as King over all the earth. When God made Adam, He also gave him dominion over all creation and there were no other humans present. Do you not know that we shall judge angels? Jesus comes to redeem the earth, purchased at Calvary, and the earth is what we reign, as victors over. There will still be unbelievers left after Armegeddon, at the sheep/goat dividing of Matthew the goats are not destroyed, just separated.
When Jesus returns and the dead in Christ arise, and we are caught up, it sais(1Thess4) thus we shall always be with the Lord. The bride is not separated into another place while Jesus reigns over the kingdom. He returns, we are changed, and remain with Him always.
The first resurrection is at the end of the 1000 years? Not. Its at His return! The second death is after the 1000 years, the Great White Throne judgement is the dead. Rev.20:12
There is only one resurrection into the kingdom. After that is the second death. What you are suggesting, is that Christ resurrects part of His kingdom, then leaves the rest for another resurrection not written of? One Church, One Bride, One resurrection.
The point is, repopulation as you state would mean marriage. And if not marriage, then fornication!!
I am sure it is explained away. I would suggest you read "the Holy Bible", which gives even more detail.....and is CORRECT. Maybe then you can give some scriptural basis to your statements instead of heresy, thinking of what makes sense in your eyes, and imagining things that are not WRITTEN.
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My, my aren't we getting testy! LOL
It appears you can't acknowledge my view without the emotion of anger. I understand. I couldn't believe it either!! How the pre-wrath position is so beautifully aligned with the totality of Scripture, that when I first read it, I was blown away, it was so fantastic!!!
It was beyond anything -- any view pre, mid or post that I had ever seen or read about. But by golly, it fits with the prophetic events foretold by the prophets, the Lord Himself, St. Paul and Revelation!!!
I guess I had better stop now. You are getting too upset. I understand, Gracie. I have even more fantastic prophetic things to tell you regarding pre-wrath fiting with Scripture, but you would not believe that either. So why bother?
Have a good day!
Blessings!
Ladylove
It appears you can't acknowledge my view without the emotion of anger. I understand. I couldn't believe it either!! How the pre-wrath position is so beautifully aligned with the totality of Scripture, that when I first read it, I was blown away, it was so fantastic!!!
It was beyond anything -- any view pre, mid or post that I had ever seen or read about. But by golly, it fits with the prophetic events foretold by the prophets, the Lord Himself, St. Paul and Revelation!!!
I guess I had better stop now. You are getting too upset. I understand, Gracie. I have even more fantastic prophetic things to tell you regarding pre-wrath fiting with Scripture, but you would not believe that either. So why bother?
Have a good day!
Blessings!
Ladylove
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Everyone take a deep breath and relax. We are all on the same side here. 
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