Discussion The WONDERFUL gift and mystery of Tongues ... a spiritual language

Status
Not open for further replies.

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
Maybe we are addressing different passages but your initial post suggested that in Acts, when someone speaks in tongues, that it was always in known human language; where I pointed out that the only occurrence of tongues being spoken in a known tongue is with the Day of Pentecost.

Nothing "changed". To think that "tongues" spoken about a few pages later from Pentecost is a "different" tongues, that idea is a unscholarly personal translation and is dangerous improper handling of Holy Writ that only leads to conducting ones self like a barbarian.
 
Upvote 0

Winepress777

Well-Known Member
Jun 8, 2015
497
145
68
✟8,905.00
Faith
Christian
The problem is that you are leaving out other significant things that Paul said in the same chapter describing the nature of tongues. If you are going to quote part of 1 Corinthians 14, you need to include every verse in the chapter to get Paul's overall view of tongues. He was quite specific to the Corinthians because they were misusing the gift, so he wanted to make sure that they exactly what tongues was all about. He didn't have to do the same for the other churches because they were using it correctly. You see Paul did not believe in fixing something that ain't broke!
I understand that entire chapter, and the entire subject Oscar. That is why I quoted other verses of that chapter to further clarify Paul's intent to keep foreign tongue speakers quite if there was no one able to understand in their own language. It is right there. Clear as a bell. It has NOTHING to do with babbling incomprehensibly as some kind of crazy "gift" from God. I guess some folk just only see what they want to see...
 
Upvote 0

ron4shua

" ... each in our own order " , Hallelu-YAH .
Aug 3, 2014
2,599
486
Sacramento valley
Visit site
✟12,507.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
http://biblehub.com/isr/isaiah/4.htm

1And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, “We shall eat our own food and wear our own clothes; only let us be called by your name, to take away our reproach.”

2In that day the Branch of יהוה shall be splendid and esteemed. And the fruit of the earth shall be excellent and comely for the escaped onesa of Yisra’ĕl.

3And it shall be that he who is left in Tsiyon and he who remains in Yerushalayim is called set-apart, everyone who is written among the living in Yerushalayim.

4When יהוה has washed away the filth of the daughters of Tsiyon, and rinsed away the blood of Yerushalayim from her midst, by the spirit of judgment and by the spirit of burning,

5then יהוה shall create above every dwelling place of Mount Tsiyon, and above her assemblies, a cloud and smoke by day and the shining of a flaming fire by night, for over all the esteem shall be a covering,

6and a booth for shade in the daytime from the heat, for a place of refuge, and for a shelter from storm and rain.

http://biblehub.com/isr/obadiah/1.htm

8“In that day,” declares יהוה, “I shall destroy the wise men from Eḏom, and discernment from the mountains of Ěsaw!

9“And your mighty men shall be discouraged, O Tĕman, so that everyone from the mountains of Ěsaw is cut off by slaughter.

10“Because of your violence against your brother Ya‛aqoḇ, let shame cover you. And you shall be cut off forever.

11“In the day that you stood on the other side, in the day that strangers took captive his wealth, when foreigners entered his gates and cast lots for Yerushalayim, you also were like one of them!

12“And you should not have looked on your brother’s day in the day of his estrangement, nor rejoiced over the children of Yehuḏah in the day of their destruction, nor made your mouth great in the day of distress,

13nor have entered the gate of My people in the day of their calamity, nor looked down on their evil in the day of their calamity, nor have seized their wealth in the day of their calamity,

14nor have stood at the parting of the way to cut off his fugitives, nor handed over his survivors in the day of distress.

15“For the day of יהוה is near upon all the gentiles. As you have done, it shall be done to you, your reward shall come back on your own head.

16“For as you have drunk on my set-apart mountain, so do all the gentiles drink continually. And they shall drink and shall swallow, and they shall be as though they had never been.

17“But on Mount Tsiyon there shall be an escapea, and they shall be set-apart. And the house of Ya‛aqoḇ shall possess their possessions.

18“And the house of Ya‛aqoḇ shall be a fire, and the house of Yosĕph a flame, but the house of Ěsaw for stubble. And they shall burn among them and they shall consume them, so that no survivor is left of the house of Ěsaw.” For יהוה has spoken.

19And they shall possess the South with the mountains of Ěsaw, and low country with the Philistines. And they shall possess the fields of Ephrayim and the fields of Shomeron, and Binyamin with Gil‛aḏ,

20and the exiles of this host of the children of Yisra’ĕl possess that of the Kena‛anites as far as Tsarephath, and the exiles of Yerushalayim who are in Sepharaḏ possess the cities of the South.

21And saviours shall come to Mount Tsiyon to judge the mountains of Ěsaw. And the reign shall belong to יהוהa.

Hallelu-YAH .
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Should I become a drug addict to experience and then conclude it is undesirable for a healthy life?
umm could you be more out of context and so irreverent? insinuating that the gifts of the Holy spirit are undesirable for a healthy life...- i mean really ?
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
It is belief based on reliable witnesses. Cannot not be just one. It should be at least two reliable sources or persons. How many sources you have for speaking in unknown tongue?
the word of God and the witness of the Holy Spirit = 2 rather more then reliable witnesses thanks :)
 
Upvote 0

Alithis

Disciple of Jesus .
Nov 11, 2010
15,750
2,180
Mobile
✟94,492.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
You are saying that you don't want know what you are praying for?
sometimes that is exactly the case .. as it is by the holy Spirit that we pray in tongues and the mind (carnal intellectual understanding ) is unfruitful.. it does not comprehend .
but then we also are given the gift of interpretation and word of knowledge and dream and visions.. all entwined gifts of the same holy Spirit .and by these he "as is the will of God .. makes known to us what it is we are praying for . by interpretation, by discernment of spirits ,by word of knowledge, by dream by vision, .. even by his still small voice ..the lord who is Spirit communes with us BY the Spirit .for the Holt Spirit only speaks what the father is saying ..

i have a feeling i know where your going by saying " you dont know what your praying ".. your going to try to suggest that a person may be praying evil things .but of course that would make God a liar . for he said if we ask the father for bread will he give a stone or a scorpion ? no he will give the good we ask for .
So i can be absolute in faith that , as is taught in the word of God .. we pray the perfect will of God in mysteries (mysteries to the carnal mind )
you really do not know what im speaking of though do you ...i really feel its become rather obvious you do not .

but you can .. you must cast off mans teachings and go to the lord Jesus in prayer .. and ask him for the baptism of the holy ghost which he promised to every one who believes .. and receive. al it takes is .. a willing believing heart and faith that he is faithful to his word . :)
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Should I become a drug addict to experience and then conclude it is undesirable for a healthy life?
What does your common sense tell you? You can answer that one yourself!
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
It is belief based on reliable witnesses. Cannot not be just one. It should be at least two reliable sources or persons. How many sources you have for speaking in unknown tongue?
I have two modern day examples in my own personal experience where it can be proved that speaking in an unknown tongue comes from the Holy Spirit. If you read back on this thread you will see where I have posted the accounts of those two events.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
But why Paul wanted that to be discarded irrespective of the situations?
I don't remember reading that Paul discarded the use of tongues. Who told you that? Certainly not Paul himself in 1 Corinthians 14. Why should he discard something that he practiced more than anyone? Come on! Read the chapter with a bit of common sense.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
I am asking additional sources in the Bible itself, not the number of people involved.
Read 1 Corinthians 14. Paul was quite plain about it - unless you think he was mistaken or lying about it. If you can't believe what Paul wrote plainly, then you are never going to believe that tongues is a gift that you should have and use.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Discard what exactly! I'm at a loss as to why anyone would suggest that Paul would ever minimise any aspect of the Spirit's ministry.
Because he never did. The suggestion comes by reading the scripture and then concluding that one and one equals three.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
In all your referred books, where else you find the mention of unknown tongue speaking, apart from 1 Corinthians.
Because 1 Corinthians was a book written, not only for the Corinthians, but for the whole Church, it would have been widely distributed and most Early Christians would have read it and taken instruction from it. 1 Corinthians 14 was a bench-mark for tongues and prophecy therefore throughout the whole Church. Why on earth would Paul repeat himself when he had already given a clear account of what tongues are and how to use the gift? If your employer or pastor gave you instructions about how to perform a duty and then told you to go and do it, wouldn't he think you were a complete pelican if you went back to him and said you wanted more confirmation of what he already told you. He would think that you didn't understand plain English! He would sarcastically ask you whether he must have spoke to you in Outer Hindustani or something, or that you are deficient in the English language. So why are you not using common sense when Paul gives clear instructions?

I think that you are committed to the belief that tongues is not for you regardless of what the scripture or anyone else says. I have worked with honest enquirers who asked sensible and searching questions, and who accepted the answers from Scripture and then said, "Tell me how to receive the gift." And when I have told them and led them through the steps to receiving, they have received the gift and were really blessed through it. I don't think that you are one of those people. I suggest that you go back to God and ask Him, and then wait for His voice to speak to you. But I really do wonder if you will actually hear it, because it seems that there are louder voices that are speaking to your mind that might drown out God's voice. However, it is up to you. It is your choice, and until you make the choice to believe that the gift is beneficial to you, no one on this thread will be able to convince you.
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
http://biblehub.com/isr/isaiah/28.htm

5In that day יהוה of hosts is for a crown of splendour and a head-dress of comeliness to the remnant of His people,

6and a spirit of right-ruling to him who sits in right-ruling, and strength to those who turn back the battle at the gate.

7And these too have gone astray through wine, and through strong drink wandered about. Priest and prophet have gone astray through strong drink, they are swallowed up by wine, they wander about through strong drink, they go astray in vision, they stumble in right-ruling.

8For all tables shall be covered with vomit, no place without filth.

9Whom would He teach knowledge? And whom would He make to understand the message? Those weaned from milk, those taken from the breasts!

10For it is: command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little.

11For with a jabbering lip and a foreign tongue He speaks to this people,

12to whom He said, “This is the rest, give rest to the weary,” and, “This is the refreshing.” But they would not hear.

13But the Word of יהוה was to them, “Command upon command, command upon command, line upon line, line upon line, here a little, there a little,” so that they go and shall stumble backward, and be broken and snared and taken captive.

14Therefore hear the Word of יהוה, you men of scorn, who rule this people who are in Yerushalayim,

15because you have said, “We have made a covenant with death, and with the grave we have effected a vision. When the overflowing scourge passes through, it does not come to us, for we have made lying our refuge, and under falsehood we have hidden ourselves.”

16Therefore thus said the Master יהוה, “See, I am laying in Tsiyon a stone for a foundation, a tried stone, a precious corner-stone, a settled foundation. He who trusts shall not hasten away.

dedicated men from every nation under the heaven.

6And when this sound came to be, the crowd came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.

7And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying to each other, “Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
13And others mocking said, “They have been filled with sweet wine.”

14But Kĕpha, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice and said to them, “Men of Yehuḏah and all those dwelling in Yerushalayim, let this be known to you, and listen closely to my words.

15“For these men are not drunk, as you imagine, since it is only the third hour of the day.

16“But this is what was spoken by the prophet Yo’ĕl:

28“And after this it shall be that I pour out My Spirit on all flesh. And your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men dream dreams, your young men see visions.

29“And also on the male servants and on the female servants I shall pour out My Spirit in those days.

30“And I shall give signs in the heavens and upon the earth: blood and fire and columns of smoke,

31the sun is turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the coming of the great and awesome day of יהוה.

32“And it shall be that everyone who calls on the Name of יהוה shall be delivereda. For on Mount Tsiyon and in Yerushalayim there shall be an escapeb as יהוה has said, and among the survivors whom יהוה calls.

Hallelu-YAH .
So, what is your analysis of this passage, and how are you applying it to modern believers?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Actually yes, the day of Pentecost was explicitly about spreading the Gospel to all Nations tongues and peoples and it has continued ever since. No change. It was ALL about "preaching the Gospel" (who can do THAT without praising the Lord?) That is why thousands were baptized and saved of the visiting Nations who spoke a foreign tongue;

(Act 2:7) And they were all amazed and marvelled, saying, Behold, are not all these that speak Galilaeans?

(Act 2:8) And how hear we, every man in our own language wherein we were born?

(Act 2:36) Let all the house of Israel therefore know assuredly, that God hath made him both Lord and Christ, this Jesus whom ye crucified.

(Act 2:37) Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and the rest of the apostles, Brethren, what shall we do?

(Act 2:38) And Peter said unto them, Repent ye, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ unto the remission of your sins; and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

THAT is what is the gift of tongues. False teachers have religiously morphed this into a bizarre demonstation of barbarian glossolalia. I've seen it. It is not of God, it is of no spirit other than deluded carnal minds desiring an "experience" like one of the workers on the tower of Babel. Everyone in a room, all chiming in, raising hands and babbling... And then afterwards, everyone smiles and hugs each other. That is NOT the Holy Spirit of Jesus Christ. Jesus speaks plainly. He Reveals all things. God is NOT the author of confusion. So unscriptural and such a spirit of delusion Oscar. I council you to study this out. You have a good mind, I agree with most all you post, but you've departed from all that with this strange topic. Best wishes in any case.

I thought that I was quite clear that Peter preached the Gospel in plain language and not in tongues. The people were amazed at the expressions of praise to God when the believers spoke in tongues, but that did not convict them of sin. It was the preaching of Paul that did that, as he explained what was happening and why. It is the preaching of the cross and what Jesus did for us that draws people to Christ, not the use of the gift of tongues.

Your problem with tongues is that it is been misused by people in public services speaking it out loud. Paul said that very thing would happen if people spoke in tongues - that outsiders and unlearned folks would think they are mad. Your reaction to the public tongues you have heard is exactly what Paul predicted! Tongues is for private use between the believer and God because it is God who understands what is being said. I agree that it can't be of The Holy Spirit when people use it in public like that. That is why Paul said that if a person wants to speak in tongues, let him doing it at home where God is the only listener. I have studied this out and have had good conversations with God about it. All He did was direct me back to 1 Corinthians 14 to examine what Paul actually said, not what cessationists are trying to make out he said. Paul was quite clear and explicit about the use of tongues. The Holy Spirit told me this: "Why do you think I took up a whole chapter of the Bible to teach about a gift that you were not meant to use? Study the chapter closely and then do it the way Paul and I instructed it to be used. If you don't, and you misuse it, I won't be part of it."
 
Upvote 0

Biblicist

Full Gospel believer
Mar 27, 2011
7,023
992
Melbourne, Australia
✟43,594.00
Country
Australia
Faith
Pentecostal
Marital Status
Married
Why do we even bother to argue scripture with cessationists, who, by definition, reject all scripture that they themselves just don't want to follow? You'll show them scripture and they will continue to tell you that it's irrellevent or means the opposite of what it actually says. Don't you ever get tired of that? I have decades ago. If they are as set as the most vehement athiest on rejecting God's word, I say let them reject God's word then. Show them their folly once and then stop casting your pearls.
That’s a fair comment. I appreciate that for the more long-term hard-core cessationist that the Scriptures are probably of little value as their worldview eventually hardens them to the point where the Epistles in particular no longer remain as Letters, nor maybe even paragraphs, where even the individual sentences seem to have little correlation from one to another. For the H-C-C, human reason is their supreme standard where the rationalism of the 19th century compels them to move within a framework of humanism that essentially removes the Scriptures as a self-attested authority.

But then we have the quasi-cessationist who by accident of birth or as with myself, where I first walked into a cessationist congregation as a teenager, where the “spiritual-things” were in most part unknown to them; as these people are often exposed to the same mindset as the H-C-C with its ‘pamphleteer’ brand of theology, once they are confronted with the often absurd reasoning of their H-C-C compatriots, then over time most thoughtful quasi-cessationists will recognise that hard-core-cessationism is nothing more than “a system of unbelief”.

So my replies are intended more for the quasi-cessationist where the rationalism of the H-C-C is used to show them that it is a worldview with no answers.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
That’s a fair comment. I appreciate that for the more long-term hard-core cessationist that the Scriptures are probably of little value as their worldview eventually hardens them to the point where the Epistles in particular no longer remain as Letters, nor maybe even paragraphs, where even the individual sentences seem to have little correlation from one to another. For the H-C-C, human reason is their supreme standard where the rationalism of the 19th century compels them to move within a framework of humanism that essentially removes the Scriptures as a self-attested authority.

But then we have the quasi-cessationist who by accident of birth or as with myself, where I first walked into a cessationist congregation as a teenager, where the “spiritual-things” were in most part unknown to them; as these people are often exposed to the same mindset as the H-C-C with its ‘pamphleteer’ brand of theology, once they are confronted with the often absurd reasoning of their H-C-C compatriots, then over time most thoughtful quasi-cessationists will recognise that hard-core-cessationism is nothing more than “a system of unbelief”.

So my replies are intended more for the quasi-cessationist where the rationalism of the H-C-C is used to show them that it is a worldview with no answers.
I agree. Religious prejudice is the hardest to break, because even if we make the points very clearly in plain language and quote specific scriptures that are equally plain, prejudiced cessationists will see it through their distorted and perverse lens and still argue against it. Even if we did the equivalent that white is not black, they would still argue the opposite. We could say that the scripture, "the god of this world has blinded the minds of those who believe not" as being applicable to people like that. Their minds are blinded by their prejudice to the point where they simply cannot believe in the supernatural gifts of the Spirit even if they witnessed them in operation right in front of their eyes, like the Pharisees during the time of Jesus, who witnessed the miracles and heard His teaching, and yet they clamoured for His crucifixion. The Scripture says that if they knew who Jesus really was, then they would not have crucified the Lord of Glory. But they did, because they were so blind with prejudice that they were prevented from seeing the truth. I put cessationists in the same basket. They have religious words, even perfectly correct ones, but no power. They have a form of godliness that might put the rest of us to shame, but nevertheless they are denying the power of it. The Scripture tells us, from such, turn away!
 
Upvote 0

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
umm could you be more out of context and so irreverent? insinuating that the gifts of the Holy spirit are undesirable for a healthy life...- i mean really ?

No. I am not degrading the gifts of the Holy Spirit. What do you think when Paul said desire better gifts?
 
Upvote 0

Presbyterian Continuist

Senior Veteran
Supporter
Mar 28, 2005
21,810
10,792
76
Christchurch New Zealand
Visit site
✟827,033.00
Country
New Zealand
Faith
Charismatic
Marital Status
Married
Nothing "changed". To think that "tongues" spoken about a few pages later from Pentecost is a "different" tongues, that idea is a unscholarly personal translation and is dangerous improper handling of Holy Writ that only leads to conducting ones self like a barbarian.

The ability to speak in tongues that came on the day of Pentecost is the ability that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 14. It is how that ability was applied in the circumstances described in Acts, and how Paul taught to control the ability and to use it in the right context. There is absolutely nothing in the New Testament that shows that the tongues that manifested at Pentecost was any different to the tongues that Paul mentioned in his teaching to the Corinthians. There have been many accounts through the centuries where people have spoken in tongues and what has been said has been understood by people who recognised the language, and they say that the content was love and praise to God and words of encouragement to the people. Also, there are accounts that when people received the gift of tongues and used it in their private prayer times, marvellous things started happening in their ministries. I know of one person who developed a healing ministry in which he could see "xray" pictures of those parts of the body that needed healing. The use of the gift of tongues in its right context gives great power to ministry. But when it is used in public without interpretation it is certainly like all the steam is going out through the whistle and not through the spiritual driving wheels!
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Righttruth

Regular Member
Supporter
Jan 13, 2015
4,484
341
✟154,410.00
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
sometimes that is exactly the case .. as it is by the holy Spirit that we pry in tongues and the mind (carnal intellectual understanding ) is unfruitful.. it does not comprehend .
but then we also are given the gift of interpretation and word of knowledge and dream and visions.. all entwined gifts of the same holy Spirit .and by these he "as is the will of God .. makes known to us what it is we are praying for . by interpretation, by discernment of spirits ,by word of knowledge, by dream by vision, .. even by his still small voice ..the lord who is Spirit communes with us BY the Spirit .for the Holt Spirit only speaks what the father is saying ..

i have a feeling i know where your going by saying " you dont know what your praying ".. your going to try to suggest that a person may be praying evil things .but of course that would make God a liar . for he said if we ask the father for bread will he give a stone or a scorpion ? no he will give the good we ask for .
So i can be absolute in faith that , as is taught in the word of God .. we pray the perfect will of God in mysteries (mysteries to the carnal mind )
you really do not know what im speaking of though do you ...i really feel its become rather obvious you do not .

but you can .. you must cast off mans teachings and go to the lord Jesus in prayer .. and ask him for the baptism of the holy ghost which he promised to every one who believes .. and receive. al it takes is .. a willing believing heart and faith that he is faithful to his word . :)

How can you claim you pray according to the will of God, if you don't know what you are praying? Sorry, that is a preposterous claim!
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.