No one is righteous vs. the righteousness of Christ

samcarternx · Jul 4, 2015

How is it we know what God's will is that we might do it? We don't, so He has to do it Himself in us so that we can do His will. Again... grace through faith.

Cappadocious · Jul 4, 2015

Why do we have to be given a nature to participate in it?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 4, 2015

Cappadocious said:
It depends on what you mean by nature, really.

Good point.

Michael Collum said:
Well this is something Paul and James addressed, James spoke of a law of liberty which was not a "law" but a new nature, just like the law of sin in our members that sinned within him was not a law in the mosaic sense but a nature.

For us to be able to "participate in the divine nature" as the scripture says, we would need to be given that very nature, theosis is a great mystery. I think the answer to your question lies in "maturity," the question you are asking is similar to assumptions surrounding the utterance of prophecy in the new testament era. It's not so much being God, Jesus did that, it's about living in the nature Jesus gave us through the Holy Spirit when we're born again. I am reminded of how Paul said that we are renewed inwardly everyday by the Holy Spirit, but our flesh decays all around us.

When we were born again, our inside person changed to be just like Jesus, but we were not given new bodies, the physical body did not stop thinking or making logical connections. The two are in conflict, but when the physical body is removed, there will be a glory revealed that surpasses all the pressure that was against it.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree with you that "theosis" is the answer. But theosis is not instantly achieved.

Scriptures do say that we are changed. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are converted and baptized. But do you really think that a person' sinner nature INSTANTLY becomes EXACTLY like Christ? Christ had human flesh just as we have. If we were exactly like Him in spirit, why would we ever sin? The body does not force us to sin. It is our mind that carries out own own selfish will and directs the body to sin.

samcarternx · Jul 4, 2015

... and with the mind of Christ, we never sin anymore, because we cannot sin.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 4, 2015

samcarternx said:
... and with the mind of Christ, we never sin anymore, because we cannot sin.

This is popping up in my alerts as a "reply" to my post. But unless you add a bit more, or I know what it's in reply to ... I would have to make assumptions to answer, and that might be unfair to you.

samcarternx · Jul 4, 2015

I only responded to the posts in general by agreeing with Paul. You need not reply. This thread is about "our righteousness" and as I have pointed out, It is contingent upon our new life in Christ and His work in us. The new man is born of God and is not the old man who died on the cross with Christ. Behold what manner of love the Father has given us, that we are called Sons of God.

hedrick · Jul 4, 2015

Kylissa said:
Scriptures do say that we are changed. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are converted and baptized. But do you really think that a person' sinner nature INSTANTLY becomes EXACTLY like Christ? Christ had human flesh just as we have. If we were exactly like Him in spirit, why would we ever sin? The body does not force us to sin. It is our mind that carries out own own selfish will and directs the body to sin.

As a metaphorical statement talk of a new nature is just fine. However from a theological point of view we don't get a different nature. Christ's nature and ours are already the same, both of them human. However ours is corrupted and his is not. What happens is that progressively ours becomes less corrupted, and also we become spiritually united with him, so that he is present in us and works through us. But this is not strictly speaking a replacement of our nature.

samcarternx · Jul 4, 2015

Christ was never separated from the Father and we were, so we were naturally submitted to sin. That guy had to die to pay for his sins and Christ died for us, so we died. A new creature was formed in us by the Holy Spirit and had to grow and mature as Christ worked His will in us. On the last day, the perfect day, we will see Him as He is because we will be just like Him. hahaha strictly speak all you want I am rejoicing and I am glad that old man died. He was evil

Cappadocious · Jul 5, 2015

Orthodox do not believe in a sinful nature or sin nature. Rather, human nature existed in a sinful way for every person.

~Anastasia~ · Jul 5, 2015

hedrick said:
As a metaphorical statement talk of a new nature is just fine. However from a theological point of view we don't get a different nature. Christ's nature and ours are already the same, both of them human. However ours is corrupted and his is not. What happens is that progressively ours becomes less corrupted, and also we become spiritually united with him, so that he is present in us and works through us. But this is not strictly speaking a replacement of our nature.

Right, if anything I said implied otherwise, I retract it.

The idea that we suddenly receive "Christ's nature" to replace our own upon conversion is exactly what I was arguing against.

I believe we are changed - gradually - through cooperation with God. Not instantly, simply, replaced.

samcarternx · Jul 5, 2015

What is it about "born again" you don't understand? "new creature"? How about I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I...?

~Anastasia~ · Jul 5, 2015

samcarternx said:
What is it about "born again" you don't understand? "new creature"? How about I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I...?

I understand.

I do not wish to respond to comments when I may misunderstand your point, as that would not be fair to you.

I think I've explained my position. If not, please forgive me. I'm more than happy to try to do better.

I'm not interested in debate for its own sake, though.

ImaginaryDay · Jul 5, 2015

samcarternx said:
What is it about "born again" you don't understand? "new creature"? How about I have been crucified with Christ, nevertheless I live, yet not I...?

We all understand this, but to oversimplify such concepts is to keep one drinking milk for their entire spiritual lives.

samcarternx · Jul 5, 2015

I assure you grace is not milk. Because I am submitted to and in agreement with our Father in heaven, I live in His kingdom. He uses me to do His will here in earth. (wow) He guards me as a shepherd. Leads me in deliverance from the evil one. He gives me all the things the gentiles seek. my cup runs over. My labors are over and I rest while my God does in me what I want to do too, and we are at peace. Praise God for such a wonderful salvation, and all those that are in my condition are praising and rejoicing in Him too. Every day we get closer to that perfect day. wahooooo This relationship is has become the end of my striving and the beginning of my eternal freedom to love all with the love of God rather than my weak facsimile. This my friend, is the salvation all of us reach as family members and we all say the same thing.

JustHisKid · Jul 5, 2015

ImaginaryDay said:
So as not to derail a thread I'll post this here.

How do we compare:

To this?:

"But now apart from the Law the righteousness of God has been manifested, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all those who believe; for there is no distinction; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;" (Rom. 3: 21-24, NASB).

Are we to always see ourselves in a constant state of unrighteousness, or does God declare us righteous through Christ?

We see ourselves as unrighteous because in ourselves, we are. God declares us as righteous because in Jesus, we are. It is only through Jesus' sacrifice for us and His blood that covers us that God declares us righteous. .. even though, we in ourselves are obviously not. We still live in this flesh and that which we would do, we do not do. Our spirit is willing but our flesh of dust is weak.

JustHisKid · Jul 5, 2015

He gives me all the things the gentiles seek.

Anyone who is not a Jew is a Gentile. What could you possible mean by this statement?

samcarternx · Jul 5, 2015

Who is a Jew, but one inwardly.

com7fy8 · Jul 6, 2015

ImaginaryDay said:
We all understand this, but to oversimplify such concepts is to keep one drinking milk for their entire spiritual lives.

I think we discover the real meaning, by growing in the fruit of the Holy Spirit, and God's correction produces "the peaceable fruit of righteousness" (in Hebrew 12:6-11).

JustHisKid said:
We see ourselves as unrighteous because in ourselves, we are. God declares us as righteous because in Jesus, we are. It is only through Jesus' sacrifice for us and His blood that covers us that God declares us righteous. .. even though, we in ourselves are obviously not. We still live in this flesh and that which we would do, we do not do. Our spirit is willing but our flesh of dust is weak.

First a person is "joined to the Lord" so the person is "one spirit with Him." (1 corinthians 6:17) With this, God declares the person righteous, it is imputed to the person. But now that the person is in union with the Holy Spirit, God's work begins to make the person deeply righteous in one's nature, so we become "partakers of His holiness", we have in Hebrews 12:11 . . . that "you may be partakers of the divine nature", Peter says > 2 peter 1:4.

samcarternx said:
Who is a Jew, but one inwardly.

Yes, this is what Paul says, in Romans 2:25-29. God does not only declare us right with Him, but deeply He changes us to be like Jesus, including so we are pleasing to Him like Jesus is; and this includes >

"rather let it be the hidden person of the heart, with the incorruptible beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is very precious in the sight of God." (1 Peter 3:4)

Having the "incorruptible beauty" of His love's "gentle and quiet spirit" does not come only with declaration and imputation, but we seek our Father for His correction (Hebrews 12:9). He is not blind to how we really are.

There is imputed and there is fruited.

Gregory Thompson · Jul 7, 2015

Kylissa said:
Good point.

Thanks for the reply.

I agree with you that "theosis" is the answer. But theosis is not instantly achieved.

Scriptures do say that we are changed. We receive the Holy Spirit when we are converted and baptized. But do you really think that a person' sinner nature INSTANTLY becomes EXACTLY like Christ? Christ had human flesh just as we have. If we were exactly like Him in spirit, why would we ever sin? The body does not force us to sin. It is our mind that carries out own own selfish will and directs the body to sin.

to illustrate the transformation and maturity the parable of the caterpillar and the butterfly is helpful, in that from those observing the caterpillar and the butterfly, they look different .. but to the creator, they both have the same DNA. So, though we do not "fly" per se, God sees the same "genetics" of the spirit in us as Jesus. Because God sees the seed, the tree, and the fruit as one and the same .. I can imagine how God can see Jesus in us .. even if we're not fully grown up yet .. kinda like relatives looking at a baby attributing features to its parents and close relatives

No one is righteous vs. the righteousness of Christ

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