Can Christians Serve Two Countries?

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

RDKirk said:
What do you think about Daniel and Mordecai, who were the top officials to two of the most reprehensible tyrants in ancient history?

Or of Joseph, whose plan was a government takeover of all the privately held land in Egypt?

I've stated before that God does lead people into government positions for His purposes. But the point of my post is not about specific individuals, but the near idolatry that many conservative American Christians have towards the government. I am grateful that you understand your citizenship in heaven and even said what I said about being in the military. I used ambassadors of Christ. But we both said that as guests in a foreign land we are to obey the laws, honor their officials and pay their taxes. Regrettably the term anarchist has such negative connotations. It has become a red flag for many people who misunderstand my use of the word only in the literal sense.

I am using the word in the sense that an ambassador, while being considerate of the laws of the land he is in, is ultimately not subject to those laws as a citizen of another country. And in a further sense, we are not just visiting ambassadors of Christ to an equal land, Christ conquered Satan and bought back the Earth. So we are representatives of the King who is King over all other kingdoms.

To think God is for the earthly governments is unscriptural. At the tower of Babel all people were united in a project. This was a unified government of fallen man. God did not bless it, he divided it by confusing the tongues. Jesus said a house divided will not stand. Both Jesus and Satan know this. Satan is desperately trying to unite fallen mankind into a world government, using all governments as stepping stones to that goal. God has been keeping the governments divided. Acts 17 says,

24 God that made the world and all things therein, seeing that he is Lord of heaven and earth, dwells not in temples made with hands; 25 Neither is worshipped with men's hands, as though he needed any thing, seeing he gives to all life, and breath, and all things; 26 And has made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and has determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; 27 That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:

He divides the nations (that is families, we should not be confused by political organizations) to facilitate the gospel. Jesus said,

And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness to all nations; and then shall the end come. (Matt. 24:14)

Then Satan will finally have his one world government. But Jesus is retarding that for the sake of the gospel being told to all people. God is against governments, not for them. He was against Israel clamouring for a king because He was their King. He did not choose Saul willingly, but reluctantly since Israel was abandoning Him!

If Israel had obeyed God, Daniel would not have been deported into captivity. Likewise neither would have Mordecai. Those are examples of God making the best of the circumstance, not his will. While Joseph was used by God to store up food, that does not mean it was God's will for him to take all property into Pharoah's possession, either.

RD, I am not addressing you alone in my response. I think you have made great points. These are thoughts that came to me later, and I am using your reply to express them. Thank you again for your input.

essentialsaltes · Jul 5, 2015

AlexDTX said:
While I understand what you mean, I still see this as a conflict of interest. How do you reconcile Jesus telling us to not murder, turn the other cheek and not to resist violence with joining the military and invading other countries?

Many Christians do see a conflict there, and thus become conscientious objectors during times of war. In the US and many other countries, this is a perfectly valid status and not a sign of 'disloyalty' to the country.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

BabylonWeary said:
So, yeah, this thing about anarchy is refreshing. If Moses is sent by God to lead the people out of the captivity in Egypt, what greater form of captivity is Messiah sent to lead the people away from? What really jumps out for me, lights it up, so to speak, that is from the point of view of Pharaoh and how he believes the world to be, Moses appears as a god with the power to cause all manner of plagues and terrors, and I wonder about that in the way some people think of the Old Testament as if it was a monster trying to devour them, like a wrathful god seeking to punish them for their sins. Maybe that's overly dramatic, though.

Babylon, thank you for your comments. Moses is clearly a type of Christ with the exodus being a type of Christian pilgrimage. And I think you have shed light on my use of anarchy that even I did not realize. As I have stated before, I am not using it as term of rebellion, but freedom from hierarchical control. Nor do I mean a libertine freedom. God made the Earth with natural and spiritual laws. Our freedom comes from understanding and abiding by those laws. The boundaries of creation is the containment of life. The boundary of a fish is water. To leave water is to die. Conversely animals need air. To go underwater is to drown and die.

But the freedom that Christ gives us is not understood by many believers who remain in a straight jacket of bondage to legalism. The truth that sets us free is in understanding God and Christ and their purpose for creating mankind in the first place. And that is to have a large family.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

essentialsaltes said:
Many Christians do see a conflict there, and thus become conscientious objectors during times of war. In the US and many other countries, this is a perfectly valid status and not a sign of 'disloyalty' to the country.

I totally agree. CO is used during time of draft, though. My grief with many American Christians is their hawkish attitude toward imperialism towards other nations. To my mind, regardless of what one understands or knows about politics, the church is called to be peacemakers. That is, reconciling man with God through the true gospel. Not this turn or burn and go to hell approach, which is no good news at all. But the truth, all sins are forgiven in Christ and all one needs to do is believe it to receive it. One does not need to even repent. Repentance is the fruit of knowing God, not the door to knowing God. If you believe the gospel, God will come into your heart, then you are in a one on one relationship with Him. One will repent because you will know Him and love Him.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

RDKirk said:
Christ is not an anarchist, Christ is a monarchist...and He's the king.

If a person is a Christian, he is a citizen of Heaven and only a "temporary resident," an "alien and sojourner" temporarily deployed to a nation in this world to perform a mission of limited duration. Then he's going home.

"No one serving as a soldier gets entangled in civilian affairs, but rather works to please his commander." 2 Timothy 2:4.

When I was active duty stationed abroad, the Status of Forces Agreement required three things of me while in the host country:

1. Obey their laws
2. Honor their officials
3. If I lived offbase in the 'ville, pay their taxes.

Interestingly, that's exactly what Romans 13 says. But having those three requirements did not confuse us troops into thinking we were citizens of those countries. We recognized we were still obeying the command of our own commander, and that obeying the local laws, honoring the local officials, and paying the local taxes did not make us their citizens. We were only temporarily deployed to perform a mission of limited duration--then we were going home.

Excellent!

RDKirk · Jul 5, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Thank you for your input, RD. I found it a refreshing bit of support. I agree with all your comments that followed, too. The same question could also be asked of Philemon and Onesimus. While Philemon was the slave owner and Onesimus was the slave they became brothers in Christ. If they both pressed into discipleship, Philemon may have released Onesismus. But only God knows what they did. It is possible that the Centurion also left military life.

I have a lot to say about slavery in early Christianity, but I would point out this verse and its effect on the situation with Philemon:

And, masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. -- Ephesians 6.

Notice what this verse actually does. Prior to this, a Roman master could consider his slave to be his personal property. He had the right to do whatever he wanted with his personal property, whether to be kind or to be brutal, to starve, to rape, to kill...and nobody else had the authority to judge him for how he disposed of his personal property.

This verse utterly demolishes the entire concept of Roman slavery. At this point, Luke 12 comes into play between the former master and his former slave:

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

By declaring both persons to be slaves to a higher Master with no partiality between them, Onesimus is no longer Philemon's property--he is now Philemon's responsibility, and God is going to hold Philemon accountable for how Philemon treated God's property.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

RDKirk said:
I have a lot to say about slavery in early Christianity, but I would point out this verse and its effect on the situation with Philemon:

And, masters, do the same things to them, and give up threatening, knowing that both their Master and yours is in heaven, and there is no partiality with Him. -- Ephesians 6.

Notice what this verse actually does. Prior to this, a Roman master could consider his slave to be his personal property. He had the right to do whatever he wanted with his personal property, whether to be kind or to be brutal, to starve, to rape, to kill...and nobody else had the authority to judge him for how he disposed of his personal property.

This verse utterly demolishes the entire concept of Roman slavery. At this point, Luke 12 comes into play between the former master and his former slave:

And the Lord said, Who then is that faithful and wise steward, whom his lord shall make ruler over his household, to give them their portion of meat in due season?

Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing. Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.

But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;

The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.

By declaring both persons to be slaves to a higher Master with no partiality between them, Onesimus is no longer Philemon's property--he is now Philemon's responsibility, and God is going to hold Philemon accountable for how Philemon treated God's property.

Wow, that is great input. As Jesus said to the rich young ruler..You are not far from the kingdom of God. And I would also say, RD, that you are clearly a man after God's own heart. You are clearly a brother and friend in Christ. God bless you, man.

ron4shua · Jul 5, 2015

I was thinking Sovereignty was a dictatorship , not some corrupted democracy as many in human flesh are . Sovereignty , the kind that commands something and your ego chooses to do whatever . Gets you evicted and cursed from a Garden Paradise . The kind of omnipotent being , human flesh can't comprehend . ( Ps 84 , ISR )
1How lovely are Your dwelling places, O יהוה of hosts!

2My being has longed, and even fainted, For the courts of יהוה; My heart and my flesh cry out for the living Ěl.

3Even the sparrow has found a home, And the swallow a nest for herself, Where she has put her young ones – Your altars, O יהוה of hosts, My Sovereign and my Elohim.

4Blessed are those who dwell in Your house, They are ever praising You. Selah.

5Blessed is the man whose strength is in You, Your Highways are in their heart.

6Passing through the valley of weeping, They make it a fountain; The Teacher also covers it with blessings.

7They go from strength to strength, Appearing before Elohim in Tsiyon.

8O יהוה Elohim of hosts, hear my prayer; Give ear, O Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ! Selah.

9O Elohim, see our shield, And look upon the face of Your anointed.

10For a day in Your courts Is better than a thousand days. I have chosen rather to be a doorkeeper In the House of my Elohim, Than to dwell in the tents of the wrong.

11For יהוה Elohim is a sun and a shield; יהוה gives favour and esteem; He withholds no good matter From those who walk blamelessly.

12O יהוה of hosts, Blessed is the man who trusts in You!

"Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition. "

Luke 2:25And see, there was a man in Yerushalayim whose name was Shim‛on, and this man was righteous and dedicated, looking for the comforting of Yisra’ĕl. And the Set-apart Spirit was upon him.

26And it had been revealed to him by the Set-apart Spirit that he would not see death before he sees the Messiah of יהוה.

27And he came in the Spirit into the Set-apart Place. And as the parents brought in the Child יהושע, to do for Him according to the usual practice of the Torah,

28then he took Him up in his arms and blessed Elohim and said,

29“Now let Your servant go in peace, O Master, according to Your word,

30for my eyes have seen Your deliverance, ( HAVE SEEN Your deliverance )

31which You have prepared before the face of all the peoples, ( ALL THE PEPOLES )

32a light for the unveiling of the gentiles, and the esteem of Your people Yisra’ĕl.”

Does Simon ask for a longer life and a jumbo jet to start a ministry ?

The word " master " is sovereign .

1But there is no gloom upon her who is distressed, as when at first He humbled the land of Zeḇulun and the land of Naphtali, and afterward more heavily oppressed her, by the way of the sea, beyond the Yardĕn, in Galil of the nations.

2The people who were walking in darkness have seen a great light; upon those who dwelt in the land of the shadow of death a light has shone.

3You shall increase the nation; You shall make its joy great. They shall rejoice before You, as in the joy of harvest, as men rejoice when they divide the spoil.

4For You shall break the yoke of his burden and the staff of his shoulder, the rod of his oppressor, as in the day of Miḏyan.

5For every boot of one trampling in tumult, and coat rolled in blood, shall be used for burning and fuel of fire.

6For a Child shall be born unto us, a Son shall be given unto us, and the rule is on His shoulder. And His Name is called Wonder, Counsellor, Strong Ěl, Father of Continuity, Prince of Peace.

7Of the increase of His rule and peace there is no end, upon the throne of Dawiḏ and over His reigna, to establish it and sustain it with right-ruling and with righteousness from now on, even forever. The ardour of יהוה of hosts does this.

" the rule is on His shoulder " , Jesus / YAHshua is our HEAD of The BODY !

The shoulder is a part of The BODY , correct ? PoGo said ; we have met the enemy and he is us .

If Scripture is correct and true ; Luke 17: 1And He said to the taught ones, “It is inevitable that stumbling-blocks should come, but woe to him through whom they come!

2“It would be better for him if a millstone is put around his neck, and he were thrown into the sea, than that he should cause one of these little ones to stumble.

3“Take heed to yourselves. If your brother sins against you, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him.

4“And if he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times in a day comes back to you, saying, ‘I repent,’ you shall forgive him.”

5And the emissaries said to the Master, “Give us more belief.”

6And the Master said, “If you have belief as a mustard seed, you would say to this mulberry tree, ‘Be pulled up by the roots and be planted in the sea,’ and it would obey you.

7“But who of you, having a servant ploughing or shepherding, would say to him when he has come in from the field, ‘Come immediately and sit down to eat’?

8“But would he not rather say to him, ‘Prepare somewhat for my supper, and gird yourself and serve me while I eat and drink, and afterward you shall eat and drink’?

9“Would he thank that servant because he did what he was commanded? I think not.

10“So also you, when you have done all that you were commanded, say, ‘We are unworthy servants, we have done what was our duty to do.’ ”

Because of this " And He said to the taught ones " this is NOT an idiom .

Saul was eager to leave his flesh behind also .

" Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters ."

27For “He has put all under His feet.” But when He says “all are put under Him,” it is clear that He who put all under Him is excepted.

28And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all.

29Otherwise, what shall they do who are immersed for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why indeed are they immersed for the dead?

I'm going to go with our Present Sovereign , SPIRIT not flesh !

I concur , Master . Hallelu-YAH .

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

ron4shua said:
I was thinking Sovereignty was a dictatorship , not some corrupted democracy as many in human flesh are . Sovereignty , the kind that commands something and your ego chooses to do whatever . Gets you evicted and cursed from a Garden Paradise . The kind of omnipotent being , human flesh can't comprehend .Elohim, Than to dwell in the tents of the wrong.

"Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition. "

The word " master " is sovereign .
DY !

The shoulder is a part of The BODY , correct ? PoGo said ; we have met the enemy and he is us .

If Scripture is correct and true ;

I'm going to go with our Present Sovereign , SPIRIT not flesh !

I concur , Master . Hallelu-YAH .

Ron,
I am glad you brought this up. I had been involved with the patriot community in our country for many years. Even though I am encouraging believers to keep our King pre-eminent and above the USA, I have both admiration and disdain for what the founding fathers intended with the new republic.

"Sovereign" is a misunderstood term. I do not claim to fully grasp the meaning, but I have a better understanding of the term because of the patriot community. And as a Christian I have had to come to my own understanding in contrast to how the church at large uses the term.

We are made in the image of God. God is sovereign, therefore He made us sovereign, too. The term as used by the church towards God means that He can do anything He wants. The term as used in politics means that governments are sovereign an have the last word, unless they are conquered by another government. Both usages are wrong in my opinion.

Regarding God His sovereignty means that he is self existent and needs nothing. Therefore He is answerable to no one. But it does not mean everything that happens in life is His will. Even though He is self existent, He is limited by His own character. For example, He is Truth and can not lie. He is life and He cannot die. He also limits Himself according to His own will. For example, the gifts and callings of God are without repentance (Rom. 11:29). That means when He gives something away, He does not take it back. This is the case with Adam and his dominion of the Earth.

Regarding governments, our government was based upon the concept that all men created in the image of God are sovereigns, therefore, the US constitution begins with We the people.... People are sovereign in that they are created by God, not men. Therefore, no one owns another man, except God. Being made in His image, He is a God of His word, therefore we are given the same power. When I give my word to stay faithful to my wife, I am bound by my own word to honor, love and cherish her until I die. Likewise if we agree to go into a business partnership, we are bound by our word to honor that partnership. Or, if we establish a government, those given the responsibility of the government are bound to honor the agreement of the government (US constitution in this case) and the people are bound to support and honor those serving in government. The sovereignty lies in the people, not the servants in government.

Regrettably, fallen man does not honor his word. Consequently we make contracts to ensure the honouring of those words. The government usually is the force that enforces those contracts. But what about those in government who do not honor their part of the agreement? How is that to be enforced? Those in government continue to close those doors. Activists try to push those doors open, but the longer they wait the harder it becomes to open those doors again. It has been 100 years since the government was stolen by the aristocracy of this country.

We the people, the sovereigns, are being controlled by our servants. In my view, there is only one answer. Changed hearts. We are called to change hearts not governments.

I have been told this story may not be true, but others say it is. The gladiator games of the Roman empire ended because of one man. This man was a Christian. He was so appalled at the brutality of the games, that he jumped out of the stadium into the arena to stop the combat. He was brutally murdered. The whole audience was stunned. No one wanted to go back to the games again, and they were closed down as a result. It was his martyrdom that changed the nation.

As believers, we know that our lives do not end when our bodies die. We know that we will come back again in glorified bodies when Jesus returns. We have no excuse for not being salt and light in our world. Our priority is not to change the governments but the hearts of the people of the country.

Resha Caner · Jul 5, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Either I am not expressing myself well, or you are missing my heart. First, what makes you think your opinion of God is better than mine? You are projecting your opinion of God onto me, as well. We all have opinions and the purpose of the forum is to share them and discuss them.

If all you're expressing is an opinion, it would help to make that clear. For example, when I asked for Biblical support of your ideas you could have said, "This isn't from the Bible. It's just my opinion." Once that is clear, I'm more than willing to discuss opinions. However, many come here talking as if their opinion is indisputable fact, and I had that impression of you as well.

And yes, I have my opinions as well, but I never said they were better than yours. In fact, WRT God choosing people like Stalin I said I don't know. The only difference between us there seemed to be that I remain open to the possibility - not that I've decided one way or the other.

That was all I was trying to establish - from what source do these ideas come?

AlexDTX said:
Governments are becoming more abstract and distant.

Likewise, your ideas seem very abstract and distant to me. I'm not sure I've gotten hold of them yet. Every time I press you on a particular point you seem to back off. Yes God chooses leaders. Yes we should obey those in authority. Yes we should enforce the law. Yes, it's ok to participate in the civil life of one's community. So where exactly is the anarchy in all that?

I wonder if we're not really that far apart in our views, but nothing I believe aligns with anarchism.

RDKirk said:
What do you think about Daniel and Mordecai, who were the top officials to two of the most reprehensible tyrants in ancient history?

Or of Joseph, whose plan was a government takeover of all the privately held land in Egypt?

Were you asking me or Alex that question?

Resha Caner · Jul 5, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Wow, that is great input.

Yes, RDKirk seems wise in many things to me.

AlexDTX · Jul 5, 2015

Resha Caner said:
Likewise, your ideas seem very abstract and distant to me. I'm not sure I've gotten hold of them yet. Every time I press you on a particular point you seem to back off. Yes God chooses leaders. Yes we should obey those in authority. Yes we should enforce the law. Yes, it's ok to participate in the civil life of one's community. So where exactly is the anarchy in all that?

I wonder if we're not really that far apart in our views, but nothing I believe aligns with anarchism.

Hi Resha,
What a red flag the word "anarchy" is! In the beginning of this thread I only used that word once and it was in the summation of my spiritual journey. I did not use that word alone, I called it "biblical anarchy". To others who had commented on that word I explained that I actually use it only in reference to the church, not the civil governments. Hebrews 10 is all about all believers ability to talk to and hear God directly. God does not need a hierarchy to speak to his body. Anarchy in its literal sense, without the connotations associated with it, simply means "without hierarchy" and that is how I use it regarding the body of Christ. Of course, that same chapter realizes that it would be easy to forsake the assembly of saints for that reason and we are warned not to.

The point of my thread has nothing to do with anarchy. My question is can we serve two masters, civil government and God? knowing that Jesus said we can not. I am addressing American Christians who seem to trust the government more than God, and obey the government as though it is equal to the voice of God.

I realize threads become long and it is easier to scan content. However, too many (I am not saying, you) people use the forum as a chat instead of a forum. The forum allows time to read, meditate and think before responding. And with the edit feature an opportunity to re-read what your response is and edit it as needed to give the best response.

My intention for all my posts in the forum is to think through with the body various issues. Thank God for the godly people who think before they speak and assume the best instead of the worst in the posters.

Resha Caner · Jul 5, 2015

AlexDTX said:
God does not need a hierarchy to speak to his body.

He doesn't. But again, neither does he say it's bad. Acts speaks repeatedly of the elders and leaders of the church. Titus and Timothy speak of how to train church leaders, and how the young in faith should be guided by the more experienced. It's not hierarchy that is the problem.

AlexDTX said:
The point of my thread has nothing to do with anarchy. My question is can we serve two masters, civil government and God? knowing that Jesus said we can not.

Um. Where did he say that? Matthew 6 is about storing up treasure, and asks where you store yours. On earth or in heaven? The "two masters" verse (v.24) refers to God and money, not God and government. The same is repeated in Luke 16. So are you advocating we eliminate money?

While I still think you're confusing the meaning of the verses you quote, I don't like the way people mix patriotism and religion either.

RDKirk · Jul 5, 2015

Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

What is the only thing that will go from this world into heaven?

Back in December, 2012, I happened to be sitting in a hotel room watching the movie "2012." Have you seen it? There is one scene where a big chunk of Los Angeles tilts and slides into the ocean. As I was watching that movie, the first verses of Zephaniah came to my mind:

I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth—this is the Lord’s declaration.

I will sweep away man and animal; I will sweep away the birds of the sky and the fish of the sea, and the ruins along with the wicked.

I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth. This is the Lord’s declaration.

"2012" was a movie, but it was right. God will do that. Nothing on this planet will be left, no trace of anything made by man, the face of the planet itself will be changed.

What is the only thing that will go from this world into heaven? Nothing but the spirits of the saved. Nothing else we do goes to heaven except that which we've done for those who are saved. We can have no reputation in heaven, except the person in Heaven who says, "I know you. You are the one who told me about Jesus." Or "I know you. You supported my mission." That is the treasure we can lay up in Heaven.

This is what Paul figured out:

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ.

So how much of ourselves should we invest in anything on this planet other than those who can be or will be saved? Yet, how many Christians in America have invested themselves--their money, their minds, their hearts--into this country? How many say "my country" and mean the USA instead of Heaven...and never, in fact, even think of Heaven as their nation from one day to the next? How many say "my culture" and mean the US instead of Heaven? How many say "my nation" and mean the USA instead of the Body of Christ?

Xalith · Jul 6, 2015

Using the Bible (in 1 Peter 2:13-14), we are told that we are to submit ourselves to the authority of kings and governors, and one would assume that this means any form of government (back during Peter's time, Kings and Emperors were common).

This means basically what wherever you go (regardless of any citizenship amongst man's governments), you are to follow the laws of governments for which you fall under, unless said laws defy God's laws, as God is higher than the government. Of course, refusing to obey the government in favor of God will likely get you in trouble (as it did with the Apostles), but God will either deliver you, or use you as a martyr (also, as He did with the Apostles). Either end is sure to bring Glory to Him if the believer does what He wills the believer to do.

In the end, since God is higher than anything of Man, it really doesn't matter what group of men you belong to while on Earth, as long as you do God's will. And part of doing God's will, is to follow the laws of men so long as they don't conflict with the laws of God.

EDIT: As for the two masters thing that Christ was talking about, He's saying that there's the World (Satan) and there's God. You can't serve them both. You either forsake your sin and turn to God, or you decide to keep your sinful nature and keep indulging in your sin (which results in you serving "The World", aka, Satan).

You can't indulge yourself in your own pleasures, living for yourself and claim to serve God/Jesus at the same time. You can't do it. God/Jesus aren't saying you can never enjoy anything, but yet your lives have to be lived primarily for Him and not yourself. His will needs to be above your own, His wants above your own.

JustHisKid · Jul 6, 2015

AlexDTX said:
Today is July 4th, which is the day the United States declared its independence from Great Britain. In my own journey of life I had gone from a rebellious pagan against my country, to a believer in Christ who was encouraged by other Christians to be a patriot for my country, to a biblical anarchist. When I was a patriot, I grimaced at the thought of Americans celebrating Cinco de Mayo (5th of May) which is the day that Mexico declared its Independence from Spain. Also, how can Mexicans emigrate to the USA to become American citizens and still honor Cinco de Mayo? But the truth is, it has been capitalized by American merchants seeking another excuse to have a sale to lure customers in to shop.

Which brings me to the point of my question. Jesus said that a man can not serve two masters. He will either hate the one and love the other, or hold to one and despise the other (Matt. 6:24). The context of his statement is either serving God or money, but as a principle it could be any two things in opposition.

I am asking this question because of another thread on the forum which declared that Jesus was an anarchist. The author of that thread did not really invite conversation, which is why, I believe, it never took off. But, as I said in the beginning of this thread, I am now a biblical anarchist, by which I do not mean I believe in rebellion to earthly governments.

Instead, I mean I have one master, my Father in heaven, who is my king and I am a subject of his kingdom. How then, could I be a patriot to an earthly government at the same time I am a patriot to my Father's kingdom? So how do you all reconcile these two things? For I do not believe that such expressions as "for God and country" are biblical. Neither do I believe that God blesses any political organization, let alone America. He blesses those that are in Christ, since it is in Christ only that all blessings flow. What do you think?

I absolutely agree with you. I laugh when "Christians" take up arms to fight ISIS. Huh? That doesn't even make sense. Store up your treasures in heaven and do not invest in this world.

.

AlexDTX · Jul 6, 2015

Resha Caner said:
He doesn't. But again, neither does he say it's bad. Acts speaks repeatedly of the elders and leaders of the church. Titus and Timothy speak of how to train church leaders, and how the young in faith should be guided by the more experienced. It's not hierarchy that is the problem.

Again, I had addressed this with other comments. We have been given the right from God to organize ourselves. That is what is ordained by God. The form is our choice. The people are our choice. So regarding elders and leaders, if a believer needs that it is available. And if we ignore God or our hearts harden, God will use other people to speak to us. Elders and leaders in the New Testament are not the same as today. Church Hierarchy is a gradual development of men asserting themselves over others by the 3rd century. Although it was evident even in the time or the New Testament writing.

I wrote to the church: but Diotrephes, who loves to have the preeminence among them, receives us not. (3 John 1:9)

NT elders and leaders were mature men and women in Christ who did not lord it over others but genuinely cared for those they knew.

Um. Where did he say that? Matthew 6 is about storing up treasure, and asks where you store yours. On earth or in heaven? The "two masters" verse (v.24) refers to God and money, not God and government. The same is repeated in Luke 16. So are you advocating we eliminate money?

While I still think you're confusing the meaning of the verses you quote, I don't like the way people mix patriotism and religion either.

Frankly, I don't think you have read my responses to other people, and I am tired of repeating what I have already said to them to you. I pointed out in the beginning that the context is God and mammon, but it is a fair principle to apply it to other things, specifically civil government. The whole thread has been on our attitude towards civil government and God. The church element was only brought up because I used the term biblical anarchy in a one sentence summation of my own spiritual journey. And that was only brought up because of someone else's thread claiming that Jesus was an anarchist, which prompted my thoughts.

Fundamentalists like to make a big deal about how the founding fathers were Christians. While I believe some were, clearly many others were not. Regardless, this country was founded upon rebellion to its mother country, Great Britain, over taxes and other issues the pale in comparison to the abuses of the US government today. Yet, American Christians are so brain washed into believing that obedience to government is God's will that they interpret disobedience to the government as disobedience to God Himself. If that were true, our whole nation's history is founded in disobedience to God. My thread is intended to get people thinking about who we are in Christ and our attitudes towards civil governments. Never in this thread or elsewhere have I promoted rebellion. Instead I have consistently stated that we are to preach the gospel and change the nation by changing individual hearts. But, I believe, American Christians need to be disconnected to this thinking of blind obedience to civil government and think through how God thinks about governments in general.

As stated in another comment, He keeps dividing the governments. He did so at the tower of Babel; Acts 17:26 & 27 say he divides the nations so the gospel can be preached; and it is evident that the one world government will come after the gospel has been preached to all the world.

Vince53 · Jul 6, 2015

My wife and I are Americans who are happily retired in Mexico. We both love the US (We won the Women's World Cup in soccer yesterday!!!!!) and Mexico, but we serve neither. We serve Christ here in Mexico, just as we served Him in the US.

AlexDTX · Jul 6, 2015

RDKirk said:
Lay not up for yourselves treasures upon the earth, where moth and rust consume, and where thieves break through and steal: but lay up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where neither moth nor rust doth consume, and where thieves do not break through nor steal: for where thy treasure is, there will thy heart be also.

What is the only thing that will go from this world into heaven?

Back in December, 2012, I happened to be sitting in a hotel room watching the movie "2012." Have you seen it? There is one scene where a big chunk of Los Angeles tilts and slides into the ocean. As I was watching that movie, the first verses of Zephaniah came to my mind:

I will completely sweep away everything from the face of the earth—this is the Lord’s declaration.

I will sweep away man and animal; I will sweep away the birds of the sky and the fish of the sea, and the ruins along with the wicked.

I will cut off mankind from the face of the earth. This is the Lord’s declaration.

"2012" was a movie, but it was right. God will do that. Nothing on this planet will be left, no trace of anything made by man, the face of the planet itself will be changed.

What is the only thing that will go from this world into heaven? Nothing but the spirits of the saved. Nothing else we do goes to heaven except that which we've done for those who are saved. We can have no reputation in heaven, except the person in Heaven who says, "I know you. You are the one who told me about Jesus." Or "I know you. You supported my mission." That is the treasure we can lay up in Heaven.

This is what Paul figured out:

What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ.

So how much of ourselves should we invest in anything on this planet other than those who can be or will be saved? Yet, how many Christians in America have invested themselves--their money, their minds, their hearts--into this country? How many say "my country" and mean the USA instead of Heaven...and never, in fact, even think of Heaven as their nation from one day to the next? How many say "my culture" and mean the US instead of Heaven? How many say "my nation" and mean the USA instead of the Body of Christ?

Thank you again, RD. This is the heart of what I have been trying to say in this thread, too. Our country, our home is not here. We are strangers and pilgrims passing through. There is a Dallas radio preacher where I live named Tony Evans who made this comment years ago. The time has come for us to stop seeing ourselves as black Christians. Rather we are Christians who are black. I echo that statement. The time is come for us to stop seeing ourselves as American Christians, rather we are Christians who are American.

AlexDTX · Jul 6, 2015

Xalith said:
Using the Bible (in 1 Peter 2:13-14), we are told that we are to submit ourselves to the authority of kings and governors, and one would assume that this means any form of government (back during Peter's time, Kings and Emperors were common).

This means basically what wherever you go (regardless of any citizenship amongst man's governments), you are to follow the laws of governments for which you fall under, unless said laws defy God's laws, as God is higher than the government. Of course, refusing to obey the government in favor of God will likely get you in trouble (as it did with the Apostles), but God will either deliver you, or use you as a martyr (also, as He did with the Apostles). Either end is sure to bring Glory to Him if the believer does what He wills the believer to do.

In the end, since God is higher than anything of Man, it really doesn't matter what group of men you belong to while on Earth, as long as you do God's will. And part of doing God's will, is to follow the laws of men so long as they don't conflict with the laws of God.

EDIT: As for the two masters thing that Christ was talking about, He's saying that there's the World (Satan) and there's God. You can't serve them both. You either forsake your sin and turn to God, or you decide to keep your sinful nature and keep indulging in your sin (which results in you serving "The World", aka, Satan).

You can't indulge yourself in your own pleasures, living for yourself and claim to serve God/Jesus at the same time. You can't do it. God/Jesus aren't saying you can never enjoy anything, but yet your lives have to be lived primarily for Him and not yourself. His will needs to be above your own, His wants above your own.

Thank you for your input.

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