Years in the cage stage

CollectsBooks said:

I have honestly reached points where I was so discouraged by their commitments that I have drifted from the faith. The reason being, it just seemed like truth didn't matter to these christians.

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Your comments above raised a couple of queries which I would like you to consider.


Why should your faith crumble on account of the inconsistencies shown by others?

Was your faith grounded in your association with your family, fiancé, fiancées pastor………...or Jesus Christ?

Does truth matter to you?

What is The Truth?

Who is The Truth?
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moonbeam said:

Was your faith grounded in your association with your family, fiancé, fiancées pastor………...or Jesus Christ?

Does truth matter to you?


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Everyone is quick to jump on the "your faith is weak" bandwagon on CF. I understand where CB is coming from. I was Methodist, with lots of Methodist, ELCA, and Arminian non-denom friends. I had a feeling that they were all wrong. All of them. Every Christian that I knew. Unless you are a monomaniac, that begins to create doubt. "Am I the only one that is right? Why?"

So, they begin to break down your faith.

In my case, I didn't storm out of the Methodist Church, but I did stop attending and started searching. But, I had been taught that Calvinism is bad so I just bounced from one Arminian church to another, looking for something more solid that the vapor they base their theology on.

I didn't find it. One day, I heard a sermon on the internet by a Presbyterian on Free Will and everything made sense. All the things that I read in the bible and my Arminian friends said meant something else suddenly clicked. I did some studying of what Calvinists say about Calvinism and discovered that the Arminians were wrong about it. Horribly wrong!

So, your friends and family may not be the rock you are grounded upon, but they are the moss and fog and roots that keep you from firmly standing upon that rock. Clear them away for a while and find the truth. Then lead them to it.

My family and most of those friends attend my PCA church now.

BryanW92 said:

Everyone is quick to jump on the "your faith is weak" bandwagon on CF. I understand where CB is coming from. I was Methodist, with lots of Methodist, ELCA, and Arminian non-denom friends. I had a feeling that they were all wrong. All of them. Every Christian that I knew. Unless you are a monomaniac, that begins to create doubt. "Am I the only one that is right? Why?"

So, they begin to break down your faith.

In my case, I didn't storm out of the Methodist Church, but I did stop attending and started searching. But, I had been taught that Calvinism is bad so I just bounced from one Arminian church to another, looking for something more solid that the vapor they base their theology on.

I didn't find it. One day, I heard a sermon on the internet by a Presbyterian on Free Will and everything made sense. All the things that I read in the bible and my Arminian friends said meant something else suddenly clicked. I did some studying of what Calvinists say about Calvinism and discovered that the Arminians were wrong about it. Horribly wrong!

So, your friends and family may not be the rock you are grounded upon, but they are the moss and fog and roots that keep you from firmly standing upon that rock. Clear them away for a while and find the truth. Then lead them to it.

My family and most of those friends attend my PCA church now.

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Well said Bryan. I can relate to all this. I am not surrounded by Reformed friends, family, or even a Reformed Church. Not only can the situation produce doubt, but loneliness, despair, and frustration.

My wife and I attended an Arminian Baptist Church on a Wed (we had been attending on Sun mornings and my wife had spent some time helping with vacation Bible school). It just so happened on this particular Wed the preacher chose to discuss the Five Points of Calvinism along with the Baptist Convention (at first I thought it could be a wonderful discussion), but the preacher was clearly opposed to the Doctrines of Grace, and I nearly walked out (felt like running out), if my wife had not been beside me, I would have. I walked out angry, probably red in the face. The sloppy misrepresentation of Arminians and the confusion their teaching full of half baked truths creates in the hearts and minds of people wanting to understand, really gets to me. I told my wife that I would never go back to that Church, I had heard enough anti-Calvinist remarks to last a lifetime.

BryanW92 said:

Everyone is quick to jump on the "your faith is weak" bandwagon on CF.

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Everyone is also quick to jump on…"Everyone is quick to jump on the "your faith is weak" bandwagon"

The point is that our faith needs to be grounded in Christ…..not in the faith of those who profess like faith.

So, your friends and family may not be the rock you are grounded upon, but they are the moss and fog and roots that keep you from firmly standing upon that rock. Clear them away for a while and find the truth.

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My point exactly…….and you have well said.
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Apologetic_Warrior said:

The sloppy misrepresentation of Arminians and the confusion their teaching full of half baked truths creates in the hearts and minds of people wanting to understand, really gets to me. I told my wife that I would never go back to that Church, I had heard enough anti-Calvinist remarks to last a lifetime.

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I hear you. in fact, I have seen it myself and feel caution. When non-Calvinists present a bunch of misrepresentations to refute Calvinism I see something that is potentially dangerous. There are some anti-Calvinists that will go to great extremes to be nasty to Calvinists. Whatever they say, or do against Calvinism is justified in their minds because they view it as some sort of service to God. When someone thinks they can serve God by doing evil, there is no limit to the amount of evil that can be done.

This leads me to the OP. I think if you are in a family that is rejecting reformed theology, alot would depend upon how they reject it. Some will never hear. Some will be softened to hear by the Holy Spirit of God.

moonbeam said:

The point is that our faith needs to be grounded in Christ…..not in the faith of those who profess like faith.



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Humans are social creatures. They are affected by the beliefs of those around them. A mighty oak tree is grounded in the earth, but can be killed by the nibbling of tiny insects.

BryanW92 said:

Humans are social creatures. They are affected by the beliefs of those around them. A mighty oak tree is grounded in the earth, but can be killed by the nibbling of tiny insects.

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The roots and leaves of the tree of life (Christ) are impervious to the nibbling of tiny insects...if we eat of its fruits we will be nourished by the words of God and our minds will be fortified by His truth...and enabled to withstand the vagaries of human opinions.
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moonbeam said:

The roots and leaves of the tree of life (Christ) are impervious to the nibbling of tiny insects...if we eat of its fruits we will be nourished by the words of God and our minds will be fortified by His truth...and enabled to withstand the vagaries of human opinions.
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Humans are not that perfect.

BryanW92 said:

Humans are not that perfect.

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I think the OP is looking for advice…not perfection.
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moonbeam said:

The roots and leaves of the tree of life (Christ) are impervious to the nibbling of tiny insects...if we eat of its fruits we will be nourished by the words of God and our minds will be fortified by His truth...and enabled to withstand the vagaries of human opinions.
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moonbeam said:

I think the OP is looking for advice…not perfection.
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I know. That's why I'm trying to keep it real and to stay away from some unachievable ideal like "impervious" and withstanding the "vagaries of human opinions".

BryanW92 said:

I know. That's why I'm trying to keep it real and to stay away from some unachievable ideal like "impervious" and withstanding the "vagaries of human opinions".

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I am keeping it real... “impervious” was a specific reference, solely, to the tree of life, the Word of God, aka the word of God the holy scripture, or, if you will, Jesus Christ personified in the form of ink and paper (so to speak) the words of which are Spirit, truth, and life...which is the bread of life...which we need to eat to be nourished (believed and absorbed) and so strengthened for the unceasing battle which is waged in our minds.

There is no suggestion that any of us must be “impervious” to the assaults of the enemy against that truth which we have received, for the truth of scripture says otherwise, and so we have good reason to expect that doubts will pierce our minds and that we will be disturbed by them, but for a season only...For the same scripture which forewarns us of our frailties also provides us with our consolation and fortifies us against overwhelming despondency and giving us hope in the midst of our doubts, and in spite of them.

“Though he fall, he shall not be utterly cast down: for the LORD upholdeth him with his hand” - [Psalm 37:24]

“Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand” - [Romans 14:4]

My thoughts above, and in my previous posts, are primarily in reference to this comment from the OP “Guys, I have honestly reached points where I was so discouraged by their commitments that I have drifted from the faith.”

And likewise...“vagaries of human opinions" is a reference, solely, to false doctrine espoused by christians which are the result of the twisting and distortion of scripture, the OP mentioning fellowships associated with arminian doctrines. Those doctrines are essentially “vagaries of human opinions” by default, for the simple reason that they do not conform to the truth of scripture, in regards to accuracy, and rightly dividing the word of God.

Once again, the despondency which assaults our minds and the doubts raised by incessant rebukes and attacks against the gospel, in regards to the truth we have received concerning the doctrines of grace (Calvinism) are to be expected .

“If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you” - [John 15:18]

“Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you” - [1 Peter 4:12]

The christian is engaged in a war, that war will be waged in his mind, we can expect to suffer some wounds...but we can be certain of victory...for the word of God is Spirit, truth and life.

Finally, my brethren, be strong in the Lord, and in the power of his might. Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil. For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places. Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand. Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness; And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace; Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked. And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God: Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit - [Ephesians 6:10-18]
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OK. We're on the same page, but looking at it from different perspectives.

If you still feel the anger over your upset and observations concerning a Methodist church pastor, maybe you should ask yourself why that is? If you're Calvinist all these experiences in my view go to reiterate the truth of your faith.

CollectsBooks said:

Hey guys, I wanted to ask for advice regarding my cage stage issue. My family is arminian (methodist, Baptist) and my fiancee is very devoted to a non denominational, but clearly charismatic, church. Guys, I have honestly reached points where I was so discouraged by their commitments that I have drifted from the faith. The reason being, it just seemed like truth didn't matter to these christians. Charlatans were adored more than faithful preachers. It felt hopeless to fellowship with them.

I once stormed out of a methodist church because the pastor was being inconsistent. He followed me to the parking lot where I said he lied. I apologized profusely weeks later, but I still can feel the anger. And I can remember the anger I harbored for my fiancees pastor for making her think she would receive charismatic gifts and his insistence on everyone donating $150 on "Super Sundays" to build a new church and get them out of the old 7/11 building they use.

Sorry for the rant. Wisdom would be appreciated. Thank you in advance

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Can "cage" stage Calvinists nearly loose their faith? There is a sense in which the terms Calvinist and "loosing faith" are oxymorons.

Also, I doubt a Methodist pastor saying something I disagree with would upset me. Hey, s(he) is a methodist pastor, I would expect massive disagreement. Why is disagreement so shocking to any Calvinists, even Cage stage?

My wife and I have come to understand and embrace the doctrines of grace, but we are alone in our town.
There isn't a single church within 12 miles that shares our view.
It makes it very difficult to have fellowship, when everyone else sees scripture so very differently than you.

I am well and truly in the cage-stage, but when you find the truth of God's mercy so blatantly declared in scripture, how can you not be excited and joyful and eager to share that joy?

I think where I struggle is the whole "are they even saved then?" kinda thoughts?



We were told only yesterday by a friend that what we were describing was nothing like the loving character of God, which simply raises in my mind the question "If their God isn't the one who has clearly revealed Himself in scripture (YHWH) then just who or what are they worshipping?"

I believe I'm still in this stage. I wanna tell every professed Christian that goes to a church where the Gospel is not preached, that they are wasting their time listening to a bunch of balderdash and that they may as well go golfing or do something else.

GQ Chris said:

I believe I'm still in this stage. I wanna tell every professed Christian that goes to a church where the Gospel is not preached, that they are wasting their time listening to a bunch of balderdash and that they may as well go golfing or do something else.

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The reason we might all feel like this is because the vast majority of churches have gone off the rails. They're not slightly off. They are not even Christian in their message or methods.

It's easy to feel very alone in an town or city in which there isn't even one church which understands the gospel and preaches it, yet crowds flock to the mega rock concert with a female "pastor" who ignores the Bible for stories about her vacation/kids/husband. . .

I'm just a sinner who tries to avoid giving into the urge to rage against false doctrine but I often fail. You can call it what you will but I call it a lack of understanding, lack of holiness, need of grace, need of Christ, indwelling sin, a constant war with the self and the flesh.

May Christ have mercy on me!

j

I went through a long cage stage after I was knocked on my backside by the doctrine of God's sovereignty in election.. I was raised 3rd generation ( in a hyper-Arminian heretical cult) making the tension extreme. The only glimpse of gospel reality were the old hymns that they sung.
I'm blessed to be able to worship now with like-minded people.
I also try not to be judgmental of Arminians, even though I believe they have an inconsistent theology.
On the other hand, those preachers that foam at the mouth railing against Calvinism, saying we worship "a monster, or god that's worst than Satan" I have no use for. I consider them false teachers and heretics. They blaspheme against and abhor the God of scripture.