Hate the Religion - not the Religious

cloudyday2

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When some religious person does something evil, stupid, or whatever, I often hear advice such as "don't condemn the religion; those people weren't really following Islam, Christianity, ...".

My opinion is the opposite. People are shaped by circumstances. Nobody is innately good or innately evil. Under slightly different circumstances, Joseph Stalin might have become a priest or a baseball commentator or almost anything. Society shapes the individual. When we see people from a certain society behaving badly, we cannot simply blame the individuals; we must blame their society. When religion is an important part of their society, then we must blame their religion.

Obviously we need to punish individuals, because that deters misbehavior. However, we need to look at the true causes of misbehavior - psychological, early childhood, poverty, ... and in some cases religion. Blaming the individual is pointless, because it is very possible that nobody has free will.
 
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Arthra

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There are a lot of factors to consider ... When you say "religion" you're addressing a wide scope... In Islam we need to consider there are many aggregates and views.. and you need to consider the large bodies involved such as the Sunni - Shiah groups... So there are people who analyse and study this area... You also have to consider how people are recruited and the underlying issues involved. All the above applies to Christianity and even Judaism as well... Sikhism and Hinduism...

I would take issue however with your closing position: "Blaming the individual is pointless, because it is very possible that nobody has free will." Unless you hold the person responsible for their actions they can always pass the buck and blame something or someone else...unless they are seriously handicapped in which case they require supervision or at least restrictions on them from acquiring weapons...
 
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bling

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You can have twin brothers raised together that follow very different paths. Free will is provided by God to all mature adults, so they can fulfill their earthly objective. This is almost magical, but real in that God gives up a little autonomy to each mature individual, so not everything is the result of their genes and environment.
 
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Ironhold

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Plus, you also have the prospect that the individual in question is not in communion with the religious body that they claim membership in.

In that sense, their own fellows may have already been speaking out against them on such-and-such issue before anything major even went down.
 
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bhsmte

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When some religious person does something evil, stupid, or whatever, I often hear advice such as "don't condemn the religion; those people weren't really following Islam, Christianity, ...".

My opinion is the opposite. People are shaped by circumstances. Nobody is innately good or innately evil. Under slightly different circumstances, Joseph Stalin might have become a priest or a baseball commentator or almost anything. Society shapes the individual. When we see people from a certain society behaving badly, we cannot simply blame the individuals; we must blame their society. When religion is an important part of their society, then we must blame their religion.

Obviously we need to punish individuals, because that deters misbehavior. However, we need to look at the true causes of misbehavior - psychological, early childhood, poverty, ... and in some cases religion. Blaming the individual is pointless, because it is very possible that nobody has free will.

Yes, people are partly shaped by circumstances; their experiences, their environment and likely probably partly genetics.

With that said, I also believe, people with certain traits, gravitate to certain religious beliefs, because they suit them. It isn't the religion itself that causes harm to a person if they are radical, it is what was already in the person, when they sought the religion.
 
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cloudyday2

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Yes, people are partly shaped by circumstances; their experiences, their environment and likely probably partly genetics.

With that said, I also believe, people with certain traits, gravitate to certain religious beliefs, because they suit them. It isn't the religion itself that causes harm to a person if they are radical, it is what was already in the person, when they sought the religion.

In a cosmopolitan society, I suspect that certain religions might attract certain personalities, but most societies are dominated by a particular religion. Christianity in the US probably has an almost perfect cross section of the US population. The same would be true in most countries that are not yet majority atheist. On the other hand, there is sometimes some fluidity between sects within the same religion. A certain personality might convert from Methodist to Catholic possibly.
 
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bhsmte

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In a cosmopolitan society, I suspect that certain religions might attract certain personalities, but most societies are dominated by a particular religion. Christianity in the US probably has an almost perfect cross section of the US population. The same would be true in most countries that are not yet majority atheist. On the other hand, there is sometimes some fluidity between sects within the same religion. A certain personality might convert from Methodist to Catholic possibly.

Look at all the denominations of Christianity though, all with their own beliefs, understanding of God, what is acceptable and what isn't and there are too many to count.

IMO, people gravitate to the one that meets their psyche and if their psychological needs change, they will either change religions, change denominations or forgo religion all together.
 
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cloudyday2

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Look at all the denominations of Christianity though, all with their own beliefs, understanding of God, what is acceptable and what isn't and there are too many to count.

IMO, people gravitate to the one that meets their psyche and if their psychological needs change, they will either change religions, change denominations or forgo religion all together.

That is definitely true for Christianity - at least in the US. Christian denominations are like breakfast cereals - almost anything you could imagine is on the shelf somewhere. Switching denominations is as easy as switching grocery stores. I'm not sure if that is as true in other societies like Ethiopia or Pakistan, but I'm sure there are choices sometimes.

It is harder to switch from a religion like Christianity or Islam that claims to be the one true faith. Switching requires renouncing that faith, so the better option is switching to a different sect within that religion.

Also in some societies, participation in the religion is a way for the individual to fulfill his duty to family and community. Especially in these societies, I think we should examine the religions when we see negative behavior from individual believers. The believers were simply born into the religion.

It's a complicated problem. Obviously we can't blame the religions for everything bad coming out of societies, but I think we should realize that individuals are molded by their circumstances - including their religions.
 
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LoAmmi

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It's a complicated problem. Obviously we can't blame the religions for everything bad coming out of societies, but I think we should realize that individuals are molded by their circumstances - including their religions.

One can recognize that an individual's actions are not in line with the religion while also recognizing that the religion itself could be an influence toward that behavior.
 
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elephunky

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I am not a fan of religion but I think hate is a word that is used too lightly. I have no personal reason to hate abrahamic or monotheistic religions but I do resent them. I am usually accepting of decent human beings who belong to said religions.
 
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Jane_the_Bane

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The various incarnations of Abrahamic monotheism feature some pretty atrocious ideas about the nature of God, obedience, ethics, and humanity's place in relation to nature, the universe, and fellow human beings. These aspects are somewhat neutralized or at least compensated for by occasional encouragements of empathy and solidarity, yet they are nonetheless present.

In light of this, my opposition to these particular ideologies is quite pronounced, especially since they seem to go hand in hand with right-wing, nationalist, and extremist politics.
 
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cloudyday2

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The various incarnations of Abrahamic monotheism feature some pretty atrocious ideas about the nature of God, obedience, ethics, and humanity's place in relation to nature, the universe, and fellow human beings. These aspects are somewhat neutralized or at least compensated for by occasional encouragements of empathy and solidarity, yet they are nonetheless present.

In light of this, my opposition to these particular ideologies is quite pronounced, especially since they seem to go hand in hand with right-wing, nationalist, and extremist politics.

I agree that some of the religions have had a bad track record. A big factor is the idea that a religion is the only true religion. This allows people to justify extreme measures to defend that true religion.
 
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Soyeong

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If a religion teaches people not to steal and someone who claims to be a member of that religion steals something, then I don't see how you could blame the religion for that person's actions. At most, you could perhaps blame the teachers of that religion for not adequately instructing that person about refraining from theft, but is not the fault of the religion. On the other hand, if a religion teaches that you should kill everyone who is not a follower and someone does that, then you should find some fault with their religion. At some people become responsible for their own actions and while the influences on a person's life makes their actions understandable, it does not justify them.

If it is true that we have no free will, then we have no responsibility for our actions, so we might as well throw out the justice system. If I steal your car, then it is society's fault, and you should find no fault with me. By the way, what's your address? :p
 
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bhsmte

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If a religion teaches people not to steal and someone who claims to be a member of that religion steals something, then I don't see how you could blame the religion for that person's actions. At most, you could perhaps blame the teachers of that religion for not adequately instructing that person about refraining from theft, but is not the fault of the religion. On the other hand, if a religion teaches that you should kill everyone who is not a follower and someone does that, then you should find some fault with their religion. At some people become responsible for their own actions and while the influences are a person's life makes their actions understandable, it does not justify them.

If it is true that we have no free will, then we have no responsibility for our actions, so we might as well throw out the justice system. If I steal your car, then it is society's fault, and you should find no fault with me. By the way, what's your address? :p

Here is the deal, some people use religion as a smoke screen. Look, I am a devout christian and then they behave in a destructive manner towards others. When called out on it, they go back to their religion to rationalize their behavior.

Lets face it, religion can be interpreted in many different ways, to suit someone's needs.
 
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cloudyday2

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If it is true that we have no free will, then we have no responsibility for our actions, so we might as well throw out the justice system.

Punishment creates circumstances that change our behavior - even if we are not actually making "choices" using our "free will". A computer program that plays chess has no free will, but it responds to the moves of the other player. The potential criminal responds to the potential punishments and rewards.
 
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Soyeong

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Here is the deal, some people use religion as a smoke screen. Look, I am a devout christian and then they behave in a destructive manner towards others. When called out on it, they go back to their religion to rationalize their behavior.

Lets face it, religion can be interpreted in many different ways, to suit someone's needs.

Anything can be interpreted in different ways, but then we need to look at whether it was interpreted correctly and where the fault lies for interpreting it incorrectly.
 
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Soyeong

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Punishment creates circumstances that change our behavior - even if we are not actually making "choices" using our "free will". A computer program that plays chess has no free will, but it responds to the moves of the other player. The potential criminal responds to the potential punishments and rewards.

Sure, punishment creates circumstance that change our behavior, but if we have no free will, then why should we punish some behaviors and not others? That assumes that there is some standard of behavior that we should conform to, but who gets to decide what that standard is?
 
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cloudyday2

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Sure, punishment creates circumstance that change our behavior, but if we have no free will, then why should we punish some behaviors and not others? That assumes that there is some standard of behavior that we should conform to, but who gets to decide what that standard is?

Nobody decides, because nobody has free will. ;)
The ocean doesn't decide to form a hurricane.
Homo erectus didn't decide to evolve into homo sapiens.
Society doesn't decide to reward some behaviors and punish other behaviors.

If we have problems with bears stealing picnic lunches in Jellystone Park, do we blame the bears, or do we blame the National Parks for not training the visitors to watch their picnic baskets?
 
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bhsmte

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Punishment creates circumstances that change our behavior - even if we are not actually making "choices" using our "free will". A computer program that plays chess has no free will, but it responds to the moves of the other player. The potential criminal responds to the potential punishments and rewards.

Depending on the type of punishment and how it is applied, punishment can also cause a person to turn the other way and rebel even more.
 
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cloudyday2

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Depending on the type of punishment and how it is applied, punishment can also cause a person to turn the other way and rebel even more.

True. It definitely takes the right ingredients - carrots, sticks, teaching, etc.
 
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