It is just a rock, Moses... Really!!! Was that necessary?

visionary · Jun 27, 2015

Thirsty people and no water. Moses turns to God for help. God says "Speak to the rock and water will come out". Instead, Moses hits the rock. Now does that make sense. You know the result. He is told he can no longer lead the people into the land of Israel.

Why such a violent behavior by Moses? Why drastic consequence was inflicted upon Moses for such an apparently trivial misdeed is one of the great and abiding mysteries of the Torah.

Just going to add one more mystery to the mix. Out of the blue, this point is thrown in. Miriam died there. She was buried there. What does Miriam's death have to do with the fact that there's no water here? Could Miriam's death in some way be the precipitating factor in the fact that there is no water here?

Hoshiyya · Jun 27, 2015

Isn't there a tradition that says this was a huge beehive-like boulder that rolled on its own account beside the Israelites ?

pat34lee · Jun 27, 2015

visionary said:
Why such a violent behavior by Moses? Why drastic consequence was inflicted upon Moses for such an apparently trivial misdeed is one of the great and abiding mysteries of the Torah.

I think it was just a show that Moses was human. He spent years leading these people only to have them constantly bickering and complaining. He probably just had to hit something, and there was the rock.

"YOU WANT WATER?? <WHACK> THERE'S YOUR WATER!"

The problem was that he got instructions directly from Yahweh. You don't break those and have nothing happen.

visionary · Jun 27, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Isn't there a tradition that says this was a huge beehive-like boulder that rolled on its own account beside the Israelites ?

Could you find more information on this?

visionary · Jun 27, 2015

pat34lee said:
I think it was just a show that Moses was human. He spent years leading these people only to have them constantly bickering and complaining. He probably just had to hit something, and there was the rock.

"YOU WANT WATER?? <WHACK> THERE'S YOUR WATER!"

The problem was that he got instructions directly from Yahweh. You don't break those and have nothing happen.

I have heard that reason. Moses at his weak moment.. blew it. Years of leading bickering and complaining people should have revealed Moses' impatience with them long before this.

pat34lee · Jun 27, 2015

visionary said:
I have heard that reason. Moses at his weak moment.. blew it. Years of leading bickering and complaining people should have revealed Moses' impatience with them long before this.

As it says somewhere later, Moses was more meek than anyone. Most of us would probably not last months trying to lead the Hebrews from Egypt before we were ready to kill them all. Still, there comes a time, a final straw and the camel's back.

visionary · Jun 27, 2015

pat34lee said:
As it says somewhere later, Moses was more meek than anyone. Most of us would probably not last months trying to lead the Hebrews from Egypt before we were ready to kill them all. Still, there comes a time, a final straw and the camel's back.

What was the final straw since the bickering and complaining is not new?

pat34lee · Jun 27, 2015

visionary said:
What was the final straw since the bickering and complaining is not new?

Possibly the fact that this was the same rock where they complained about dying of thirst the first time. Look how he talks about the people just before he dies in Deuteronomy 31:24-30

Anyway, remember what a last straw is. It can be any little thing that pushes you that last bit.

The Lone Ranger · Jun 27, 2015

Rebellion for God taking away a life he thought he could have being a Shepherd?

ContraMundum · Jun 28, 2015

visionary said:
Thirsty people and no water. Moses turns to God for help. God says "Speak to the rock and water will come out". Instead, Moses hits the rock. Now does that make sense. You know the result. He is told he can no longer lead the people into the land of Israel.

Why such a violent behavior by Moses? Why drastic consequence was inflicted upon Moses for such an apparently trivial misdeed is one of the great and abiding mysteries of the Torah.

Just going to add one more mystery to the mix. Out of the blue, this point is thrown in. Miriam died there. She was buried there. What does Miriam's death have to do with the fact that there's no water here? Could Miriam's death in some way be the precipitating factor in the fact that there is no water here?

I've always thought this story makes God look rather pedantic. I know all the arguments, theology etc as to "why God did..." in response to Moses...but really, the punishment seems rather harsh. I'm only human, and I just have to accept that God's ways are in many places a mystery to me.

BelieveTheWord · Jun 28, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Isn't there a tradition that says this was a huge beehive-like boulder that rolled on its own account beside the Israelites ?

Yes. Paul cites this in 1 Corinthians 10

"1Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

visionary · Jun 28, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
Yes. Paul cites this in 1 Corinthians 10

"1Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

A spiritual "rock" that followed them?? This might be what Hoshayya was indicating.

But I know that it was the cloud by day and fire by night.

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

visionary · Jun 28, 2015

I am going to have to give Moses' some leeway for he was instructed by God to smite the rock.

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

And this was long before....

Num 20:8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

visionary · Jun 28, 2015

Isa 48:21 And they thirsted not when he led them through the deserts: he caused the waters to flow out of the rock for them: he clave the rock also, and the waters gushed out.

Hoshiyya · Jun 28, 2015

visionary said:
A spiritual "rock" that followed them?? This might be what Hoshayya was indicating.

But I know that it was the cloud by day and fire by night.

Exo 13:21 And the LORD went before them by day in a pillar of a cloud, to lead them the way; and by night in a pillar of fire, to give them light; to go by day and night:
22 He took not away the pillar of the cloud by day, nor the pillar of fire by night, from before the people.

The rock that rolled on its own accord is something I heard on this forum actually, don't remember where.

The rock probably is not the same as the cloud. In any case it is a Jewish tradition, and this tradition of the rolling boulder may or may not be what Paul refers to in 1 Cor.
I think if this is what Paul refers to, we must take "spiritual" to mean "supernatural". Spirit and Spiritual can mean MANY things. Many spiritual things are intangible, and many spiritual things are tangible, physical things. It depends on context.

Truthfrees · Jun 28, 2015

visionary said:
Thirsty people and no water. Moses turns to God for help. God says "Speak to the rock and water will come out". Instead, Moses hits the rock. Now does that make sense. You know the result. He is told he can no longer lead the people into the land of Israel.

Why such a violent behavior by Moses? Why drastic consequence was inflicted upon Moses for such an apparently trivial misdeed is one of the great and abiding mysteries of the Torah.

Just going to add one more mystery to the mix. Out of the blue, this point is thrown in. Miriam died there. She was buried there. What does Miriam's death have to do with the fact that there's no water here? Could Miriam's death in some way be the precipitating factor in the fact that there is no water here?

visionary said:
I am going to have to give Moses' some leeway for he was instructed by God to smite the rock.

Exo 17:6 Behold, I will stand before thee there upon the rock in Horeb; and thou shalt smite the rock, and there shall come water out of it, that the people may drink. And Moses did so in the sight of the elders of Israel.

And this was long before....

Num 20:8 Take the rod, and gather thou the assembly together, thou, and Aaron thy brother, and speak ye unto the rock before their eyes; and it shall give forth his water, and thou shalt bring forth to them water out of the rock: so thou shalt give the congregation and their beasts drink.

Perhaps this part of Numbers 20 reveals what's different about Moses' attitude and actions THIS time:

"And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them." - Numbers 20:10-12

Where do we ever see Moses speak to anyone in the way he speaks to the Israelites this time? (Numbers 20:10) Prior to this time Moses is always using faith in YHWH's goodness to INTERCEDE for the people.

Could it be Moses has a change of heart at this point in time? Perhaps weary of the same old complaining? Perhaps grieving over Miriam? (Numbers 20:1) Whatever it is, YHWH's words seem to indicate Moses and Aaron are having a "faith" issue. (Numbers 20:12).

Could it be YHWH isn't "punishing" Moses? Perhaps Moses' change of heart toward the people is an indication his work (Divine Calling) is complete?

IOW, if we see this as a "punishment" for disobedience, it seems unfair, but if we see this as Moses' heart is finished with the complaining people, therefore YHWH is letting Joshua take over from here, it seems wise IMO.

visionary · Jun 28, 2015

Truthfrees said:
Perhaps this part of Numbers 20 reveals what's different about Moses' attitude and actions THIS time:

"And Moses and Aaron gathered the congregation together before the rock, and he said unto them, Hear now, ye rebels; must we fetch you water out of this rock?

And Moses lifted up his hand, and with his rod he smote the rock twice: and the water came out abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their beasts also.

And the LORD spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them." - Numbers 20:10-12

Where do we ever see Moses speak to anyone in the way he speaks to the Israelites this time? (Numbers 20:10) Prior to this time Moses is always using faith in YHWH's goodness to INTERCEDE for the people.

Could it be Moses has a change of heart at this point in time? Perhaps weary of the same old complaining? Perhaps grieving over Miriam? (Numbers 20:1) Whatever it is, YHWH's words seem to indicate Moses and Aaron are having a "faith" issue. (Numbers 20:12).

Could it be YHWH isn't "punishing" Moses? Perhaps Moses' change of heart toward the people is an indication his work (Divine Calling) is complete?

IOW, if we see this as a "punishment" for disobedience, it seems unfair, but if we see this as Moses' heart is finished with the complaining people, therefore YHWH is letting Joshua take over from here, it seems wise IMO.

I like the way you think.

Open Heart · Jun 28, 2015

visionary said:
Just going to add one more mystery to the mix. Out of the blue, this point is thrown in. Miriam died there. She was buried there. What does Miriam's death have to do with the fact that there's no water here? Could Miriam's death in some way be the precipitating factor in the fact that there is no water here?

I'm telling this from memory, so it's kind of sketchy, but there is a midrash in Judaism called "Miriam's Well"--a miraculous well that traveled with the Israelites everywhere they went during those forty years. I'm sure the idea is built up from verses in the Torah, but I don't know what they would be. Maybe someone else knows better than I?

Open Heart · Jun 28, 2015

Hoshiyya said:
Isn't there a tradition that says this was a huge beehive-like boulder that rolled on its own account beside the Israelites ?

YES... that's the one. Miriam's well.

Okay I looked it up at Chabad.com:

Our sages say that the three great divine gifts that sustained the Jewish people in the desert—the Manna, the clouds of glory and the well—were in the merit of these three worthy shepherds, Moses, Aaron and Miriam respectively.

“Miriam’s Well,” as it became known—a rolling rock that accompanied the Jewish people on their wanderings—provided fresh water in the desert, not only for the people but also for their cattle and sheep. It also made the desert bloom with green pastures and beautifully scented flowers. Small wonder the people loved and respected this wise, G d-fearing and saintly prophetess

Open Heart · Jun 28, 2015

BelieveTheWord said:
Yes. Paul cites this in 1 Corinthians 10

"1Now I would not have you ignorant, brothers, that our fathers were all under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; 2and were all baptized into Moses in the cloud and in the sea; 3and all ate the same spiritual food; 4and all drank the same spiritual drink. For they drank of a spiritual rock that followed them, and the rock was Christ. 5However with most of them, God was not well pleased, for they were overthrown in the wilderness."

Obviously Paul knew the midrash too!

It is just a rock, Moses... Really!!! Was that necessary?

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Spenglerian

Messianic

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Messianic

Kemosabe

Messianic Jewish Christian

Hebrew Roots Christian

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Spenglerian

Well-Known Member

Your God is my God... Ruth said, so say I.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

Similar threads