Did Adam sin?

smaneck

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You do know that Jesus was crucified? The Jews demanded His death because of His blasphemy and being a threat to the Pharisees. I am not talking about today. .

Jesus wasn't crucified for blasphemy he was crucified for treason in claiming to be the Messiah. That's why King of the Jews was written on his cross. If the issue had been blasphemy he would have been stoned to death as Stephen was shortly thereafter.
 
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Claire Evans

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The Pharisees were virtually powerless at the time of Jesus's crucifixion. Their terse relationship with early Christianity only became an issue more than half a century later.

They blackmailed Pontius Pilate. If he didn't agree to Jesus' crucifixion, there would be a revolt. One more revolt and Pilate would have lost his job. I think Pilate may be resisted because he didn't want to be told what to do by Jews. He must have been intrigued because Jesus was worshiped 5 days earlier. He also was pressured by his wife to spare Jesus. In the end, Pilate had no choice but to quell the threat that was Jesus.
 
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Claire Evans

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I did not say it wasn't relevant because it talks about suffering. I said that it doesn't fit with the comforting passages selected in the lead up to Yom Kippur, when we focus on our own sins for a 26 hour fast. So the weeks leading up to it, we focus on some comforting passages. As for you asserting it's the real one because of the Messiah, prove it. Show me where the people who selected these said "nope, not this one, people will see it's about Jesus!".

I'm not convinced by your explanation about Yom Kippur and the comforting passages but I will give my reason later.

Because of. The Hebrew says "because of" not "for" in the same way I might die because of the negligence of another, not for the negligence of another.

I researched this and you are right. The prefix is mem which is "because of" and the prefix for "for" is lamed. I could interpret it as because of our sins, Jesus was put to death. It is because we are sinful that Jesus had to die. Now I give this explanation because there are some points that seriously undermine the explanation that Israel is the suffering servant.

Isaiah 53:9

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- We know that Israel was violent. It was because sheer violence that Israel was established in the first place. Israel is not blameless.

Isaiah 1:4

Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.

- So Israel spurned God but later because his suffering servant?

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7

7He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

- You cannot tell me Israel suffered in silence.

9: He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- The whole of Israel died with the wicked yet Israel was wicked herself? Israel was not peaceful and was deceitful. The whole of Israel did not die.

10Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspringand prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

- So Isaiah says that the suffering servant was offered as a guilt offering for sin. Since Israel was full of sin, it could not be Israel that is the guilt offering. The suffering servant has killed and brought back to life because of the sins of transgressors. Sounds like Jesus.

I appears as if this idea of it being Israel is a recent thing. Here are ancient rabbinic sources that say the suffering servant is a messiah.

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."(From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)

Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

abbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

When did this happen? Not to harp on it, but you know... the 1940s is a good example. 6 million died because of the transgressions of Germany.

The state of Israel did not exist during the Holocaust. There were Jews put to death like Poland, for example. You can't lump all Jews with Israel.
 
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Robban

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I'm not convinced by your explanation about Yom Kippur and the comforting passages but I will give my reason later.



I researched this and you are right. The prefix is mem which is "because of" and the prefix for "for" is lamed. I could interpret it as because of our sins, Jesus was put to death. It is because we are sinful that Jesus had to die. Now I give this explanation because there are some points that seriously undermine the explanation that Israel is the suffering servant.

Isaiah 53:9

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- We know that Israel was violent. It was because sheer violence that Israel was established in the first place. Israel is not blameless.

Isaiah 1:4

Woe to the sinful nation, a people whose guilt is great, a brood of evildoers, children given to corruption! They have forsaken the LORD; they have spurned the Holy One of Israel and turned their backs on him.

- So Israel spurned God but later because his suffering servant?

He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

Isaiah 53:7

7He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth.

- You cannot tell me Israel suffered in silence.

9: He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- The whole of Israel died with the wicked yet Israel was wicked herself? Israel was not peaceful and was deceitful. The whole of Israel did not die.

10Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering, he will see his offspringand prolong his days, and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11After the suffering of his soul, he will see the light [of life] and be satisfied; by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many, and he will bear their iniquities.

- So Isaiah says that the suffering servant was offered as a guilt offering for sin. Since Israel was full of sin, it could not be Israel that is the guilt offering. The suffering servant has killed and brought back to life because of the sins of transgressors. Sounds like Jesus.

I appears as if this idea of it being Israel is a recent thing. Here are ancient rabbinic sources that say the suffering servant is a messiah.

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)

Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."(From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)

Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

abbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)



The state of Israel did not exist during the Holocaust. There were Jews put to death like Poland, for example. You can't lump all Jews with Israel.

"The entire people of Israel comprise a singel soul;
only the bodies seperate."

A bicycle Wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are placed apart, seperate from eachother,
at the center the hub/spindle they are United/connected.
 
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Claire Evans

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Sure, I'm happy to. I didn't make a claim, but asked a question. But I suppose there was an assumption in my question, that being the Israelites didn't consider themselves one of the seventy nations, and perhaps you're referring to that.

That Israel didn't consider themselves one of the seventy nations is evidenced by those seventy nations being listed in Genesis 10, and Israel isn't included in that list.

So Israel was the 71st nation, God's chosen people, because Abraham was God's chosen man.

I'm quite familiar with Deut 32:7-8 and some of the interpretations regarding it, including the one you linked to (YHWH was a son of El). My question posed to that particular interpretation is this: How could the Israelites have considered YHWH to be one of El's seventy sons when they didn't consider themselves one of the seventy nations?

Weren't the nations of Babel considered the 70 nations in Genesis? When they rejected him, God allotted the boundaries of the 70 nations to Jacob's family according to the number of family members who came to Egypt.


Genesis 46: 27
And Joseph's sons, who were born to him in Egypt, two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy.

Then we have Deuteronomy - Chapter 32

8When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.

Out of the 70 nations, the children of Israel was to have a specific border of land that was to be Israel through Abraham.

And here we come to the El and Yahweh bit. 70 gods of the Canaan pantheon was allotted a nation. Yahweh happened to be allotted Israel.
 
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Claire Evans

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"The entire people of Israel comprise a singel soul;
only the bodies seperate."

A bicycle Wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are placed apart, seperate from eachother,
at the center the hub/spindle they are United.


Is this all you are going to address? No refutation about Isaiah 53?
 
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Robban

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Is this all you are going to address? No refutation about Isaiah 53?

Firstly, I don,t Believe "Things just happen"

You are a Christian, are you not happy Jesus that Jesus was killed?
How else is your story going to make ends meet?

For the benefit of the moaners and groaners, a pole was erected in the desert with a snake on it, if one had been bitten they were told to look up at it and be healed, not by the snake, but by looking up.

So, what is your complaint?
 
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ChetSinger

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Weren't the nations of Babel considered the 70 nations in Genesis?
Yes.

When they rejected him, God allotted the boundaries of the 70 nations to Jacob's family according to the number of family members who came to Egypt.
Genesis 46: 27
And Joseph's sons, who were born to him in Egypt, two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy.
Then we have Deuteronomy - Chapter 32
8When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel.
Close, but the seventy weren't the members of Jacob's family; they were high-ranking angels. The original text of Deut 32:7-8 is now believed to have been "sons of God", not "children of Israel". The conversion of "sons of God" to "children of Israel" seems to have been done later, perhaps by the Masoretes. "Sons of God" is almost certainly the original reading, being contained in both the Dead Sea scrolls and the Septuagint, and is reflected in newer translations such as the ESV and NET.

The sons of God were high-ranking angels. The supporting evidence for this is far too long for a single post. If you're interested, read the account of Babel's rebellion in Targum Pseudo-Jonathan. You'll see the 70 angels descending from heaven alongside the Word of the Lord (yes, the Word of the Lord) to the city, to confuse the languages.

Out of the 70 nations, the children of Israel was to have a specific border of land that was to be Israel through Abraham.
And here we come to the El and Yahweh bit. 70 gods of the Canaan pantheon was allotted a nation. Yahweh happened to be allotted Israel.
But Israel isn't listed in the 70 nations. Instead, two chapters later, God's first promise to Abraham is that He will make a nation out of him. Israel was the 71st nation. But there were only 70 angels. Ergo, YHWH wasn't one of the 70 sons of El; he was El himself. After all, El Elyon is a title, while YHWH is a name.

If you want a scholarly and orthodox viewpoint on all this stuff I suggest http://www.thedivinecouncil.com/
 
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LoAmmi

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\He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.

- We know that Israel was violent. It was because sheer violence that Israel was established in the first place. Israel is not blameless.
Jesus whipped people out of the Temple, a violent act. So.... whatever justification you use for Jesus doing that, just apply it to Israel and there we go.

- So Israel spurned God but later because his suffering servant?
Yep.
Isaiah 41: "But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, the offspring of Abraham, my friend; you whom I took from the ends of the earth, and called from its farthest corners, saying to you, “You are my servant, I have chosen you and not cast you off.”" We see here a change from the beginning of Isaiah to the servant songs. It's comes down to what is said in Isaiah 49: "The redeemer will come to Zion, to those in Jacob who repent of their sins," declares the LORD.
The servant represents those who have repented of their sins and turned back. When we say the servant is Israel, we're talking about people who have turned back and have been called back to our home.

- You cannot tell me Israel suffered in silence.
I see a bunch of quotes in the New Testament where Jesus says things and cries out. So... whatever justification you use for Jesus doing that, just apply it to Israel and there we go.
- The whole of Israel died with the wicked yet Israel was wicked herself? Israel was not peaceful and was deceitful. The whole of Israel did not die.
I refer to my Isaiah 41 and 49 quotes above.
- So Isaiah says that the suffering servant was offered as a guilt offering for sin. Since Israel was full of sin, it could not be Israel that is the guilt offering. The suffering servant has killed and brought back to life because of the sins of transgressors. Sounds like Jesus.
Actually, it sounds nothing like Jesus. His days were not prolonged nor did he have physical children, which Isaiah references by using the Hebrew word for seed/sperm. I'd also point out that the word death in the Hebrew used in Isaiah 53 is plural, it's DEATHS. How many times did Jesus die?
I appears as if this idea of it being Israel is a recent thing. Here are ancient rabbinic sources that say the suffering servant is a messiah.

Babylonian Talmud: "The Messiah --what is his name?...The Rabbis say, The Leper Scholar, as it is said, `surely he has borne our griefs and carried our sorrows: yet we did esteem him a leper, smitten of God and afflicted...'" (Sanhedrin 98b)
Man, I hope whoever ripped that from the text took it to dinner before having their way with it. The Talmud does say that but also applies Isaiah 53 to Moses, David, Isaiah himself, Israel, and all righteous people who suffer. Moses, David, and Isaiah certainly weren't killed for the sins of the world.
Rabbi Moses Maimonides: "What is the manner of Messiah's advent....there shall rise up one of whom none have known before, and signs and wonders which they shall see performed by him will be the proofs of his true origin; for the Almighty, where he declares to us his mind upon this matter, says, `Behold a man whose name is the Branch, and he shall branch forth out of his place' (Zech. 6:12). And Isaiah speaks similarly of the time when he shall appear, without father or mother or family being known, He came up as a sucker before him, and as a root out of dry earth, etc....in the words of Isaiah, when describing the manner in which kings will harken to him, At him kings will shut their mouth; for that which had not been told them have they seen, and that which they had not heard they have perceived."(From the Letter to the South (Yemen), quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 374-5)
Nothing inconsistent with the modern Jewish view at all. Not sure what you're getting at. Isaiah 53 is clearly describing the Messianic age where Israel is redeemed.
Rabbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)

abbi Mosheh Kohen Ibn Crispin: This rabbi described those who interpret Isaiah 53 as referring to Israel as those: "having forsaken the knowledge of our Teachers, and inclined after the `stubbornness of their own hearts,' and of their own opinion, I am pleased to interpret it, in accordance with the teaching of our Rabbis, of the King Messiah....This prophecy was delivered by Isaiah at the divine command for the purpose of making known to us something about the nature of the future Messiah, who is to come and deliver Israel, and his life from the day when he arrives at discretion until his advent as a redeemer, in order that if anyone should arise claiming to be himself the Messiah, we may reflect, and look to see whether we can observe in him any resemblance to the traits described here; if there is any such resemblance, then we may believe that he is the Messiah our righteousness; but if not, we cannot do so." (From his commentary on Isaiah, quoted in The Fifty-third Chapter of Isaiah According to the Jewish Interpreters, Ktav Publishing House, 1969, Volume 2, pages 99-114.)
The book is in error as the guy was not some kind of prominent rabbi. That book is in error and I could even provide you a few Messianic sites that have conceded that this is the case.

The state of Israel did not exist during the Holocaust. There were Jews put to death like Poland, for example. You can't lump all Jews with Israel.

All Jews ARE Israel. What do you think we're discussing? The Nation State?! Israel IS the Jewish people.
 
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Vollbracht

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"The entire people of Israel comprise a singel soul;
only the bodies seperate."

A bicycle Wheel, at the outer rim the spokes are placed apart, seperate from eachother,
at the center the hub/spindle they are United/connected.

Yes. Much like this?

Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png
 
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Robban

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Yes. Much like this?

Shield-Trinity-Scutum-Fidei-English.png

Or,
Sunbeams or sunrays can be cleary visible through the Clouds or through a window, so much so, it is if one can grasp them with the hand
and then they are gone,
Where do they go if not back to their scource/return.

So also with the soul?
 
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Claire Evans

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Firstly, I don,t Believe "Things just happen"

You are a Christian, are you not happy Jesus that Jesus was killed?
How else is your story going to make ends meet?

For the benefit of the moaners and groaners, a pole was erected in the desert with a snake on it, if one had been bitten they were told to look up at it and be healed, not by the snake, but by looking up.

So, what is your complaint?


Don't you realize this makes absolutely no sense whatsoever? How does the Brazen snake tie in with Isaiah 53?
 
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Claire Evans

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You tell me: "Surely, for Thy sake we have been slain all the day, Reckoned as sheep of the slaughter." Psalm 44:22
In fact this Psalm parallels the fourth Suffering Servant song of Isaiah 52-53 rather exactly.

There are four Suffering Servants songs in Deutero-Isaiah. If you read them together it is pretty obvious they refer to Israel. Might they also refer to the Messiah who comes? I think so but not necessarily so. Israel is the primary meaning of this passage but I think Deutero-Isaiah as a whole depicts a God who participates in our suffering.

"In all their affliction He was afflicted, and the angel of His presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old." Isaiah 63:9



Uh, yeah. The Jewish people are consistently referred to as a singular entity, using the singular pronoun throughout the Bible, but let's keep our focus on Deutero-Isaiah.
  • “You are My servant, O Israel” (41:8)
  • “You are My servant, Israel” (49:3)
  • see also Isaiah 44:1, 44:2, 44:21, 45:4, 48:20


Since we are comparing Psalms to Isaiah, I'd like to point out another passage:

Psalm 22:17-18

17I can count all my bones. They look, they stare at me; 18They divide my garments among them, And for my clothing they cast lots.19But You, O LORD, be not far off; O You my help, hasten to my assistance.…

What do you think this means? Sounds like Jesus.
 
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Claire Evans

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Of course you know that Israel is a nation not just one person. When God talking about Israel He is talking about them as a whole, Israel is the first nation He chose to work with, to show His power through them so that the whole world may fear Him. Abraham is the father of faith, Issac the son of Abraham, and Jacob surname Israel. Jacob fought for that name so that the angel of God will bless him because of his sin. Hosea 11 1 "When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son". This passage refer to the cry that God heard His people in Egypt while they was being totally oppress. When God told Abraham to leave out of the land of Ur and promise that he will be put place in a land that flowing with milk and honey, He remember that. He remember us while we were yet sinning each and everyday. His thought never left us for one second, when we turn our back to Him then He being just says go ahead then you got. That's when we fall. There are some things in the bible I don't quiet understand yet, I will put it like this, Jesus is the Son of God, Abraham which is the father of Issac, the father of Jacob surname Israel is the first Sons of Faith. There only one God, One Son, and One Spirit, all is within each as we suppose to be within Christ. Oh yeah just a notion that I want to throw out there, which can start a thread Do you know what the Bible really referring to from the latter part of Genesis to the book of Revelation? Oh yeah I am not a seeker of faith I stop seeking now I know. A child of God is what I want to be.

You may be interested in this. It will cast doubt on your perceptions of the OT.

 
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Claire Evans

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Jesus wasn't crucified for blasphemy he was crucified for treason in claiming to be the Messiah. That's why King of the Jews was written on his cross. If the issue had been blasphemy he would have been stoned to death as Stephen was shortly thereafter.


That wouldn't have been public, humiliating and painful enough not to crucify Jesus.
 
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Claire Evans

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"When they rejected him, God allotted the boundaries of the 70 nations to Jacob's family according to the number of family members who came to Egypt.
Genesis 46: 27
And Joseph's sons, who were born to him in Egypt, two souls; all the souls of the house of Jacob who came to Egypt were seventy.
Then we have Deuteronomy - Chapter 32
8When the Most High gave nations their lot, when He separated the sons of man, He set up the boundaries of peoples according to the number of the children of Israel."


Close, but the seventy weren't the members of Jacob's family; they were high-ranking angels. The original text of Deut 32:7-8 is now believed to have been "sons of God", not "children of Israel". The conversion of "sons of God" to "children of Israel" seems to have been done later, perhaps by the Masoretes. "Sons of God" is almost certainly the original reading, being contained in both the Dead Sea scrolls and the Septuagint, and is reflected in newer translations such as the ESV and NET.

You are absolutely right. The Masoretes did manipulate the original.

International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, Vol. 4, on page 584, art. ‘sons of God’ has to say regarding this text:

“...the MT [masoretic text] erroneously has “sons of Israel” [bene yisrael], but the versions [e.g., LXX, Symm, Old Latin] and a scroll from Qumran support the reading “sons of God” [bene elim.]”

The New Jerome Biblical Commentary, compiled by three outstanding Catholic scholars, on page 108, states:

“For “sons of Israel” read “sons of God” with the LXX and QL. The idea is that Elyon, high God of the Canaanite pantheon, assigned each of the 70 nations of the world [Gen 10] to one of the 70 deities of the pantheon and that Israel had the good fortune to be assigned to Yahweh.”

The sons of God were high-ranking angels. The supporting evidence for this is far too long for a single post. If you're interested, read the account of Babel's rebellion in Targum Pseudo-Jonathan. You'll see the 70 angels descending from heaven alongside the Word of the Lord (yes, the Word of the Lord) to the city, to confuse the languages.

However, the sons of God were fallen angels. That is what the Bible says.

Genesis 6:2

"the sons of God saw that the daughters of humans were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose"

We know these are not angels because angels can not marry.

Matthew 22:30New King James Version (NKJV)
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are like angels of God in heaven.

And the offspring of the sons of God were the Nephilim.

It's not that strange. We have had many narratives were extraterrestrials breed with humans.

But Israel isn't listed in the 70 nations. Instead, two chapters later, God's first promise to Abraham is that He will make a nation out of him. Israel was the 71st nation. But there were only 70 angels. Ergo, YHWH wasn't one of the 70 sons of El; he was El himself. After all, El Elyon is a title, while YHWH is a name.

He is what I think is an explanation for the 71 nation thing.

It appeared as if El allotted a god for the 70 nations but kept Israel for himself implying it was a 71st nation. El gave this to Yahweh later as an inheritance.

...when God divided up the world among the nations, He gave each of them a supervising angel! But he appointed none for Israel; For Israel was God’s own personal possession!” [The Living Bible – Life Application Bible].

“...the Most High assigned nations their lands; he determined where peoples should live. He assigned to each nation a god, but Jacob’s descendants he chose for himself” [Good News Bible].


There seems to be some more Masoretic corruption:

Blessed be Abram of God Most High, Creator of heaven and earth” [verse 19].

But Abraham replied:

“I lift up my hand to Yahweh, God Most High” [verse 22].

It is thus claimed that Abraham equated Yahweh with El Elyon. But the fact is: the earlier versions of this passage did not have the name Yahweh. It was added later by the masorites. The early Greek Septuagint, the Symmachus translation and the Old Latin have Abraham say the same thing Melchisedek said. Why was there a need to corrupt the text and insert the name Yahweh? In Genesis 22:14 we are told that Abraham named a site where he was to offer Isaac as a sacrifice, JEHOVAH JIREH [KJV] or YAHWEH YIREH in the Hebrew bible. But this was just another corruption and a forgery by the masorites. The oldest version of the bible known as the Dead Sea Scrolls Bible, translated by Martin Abegg, Jr. Peter Flint and Eugene Ulrich has Abraham naming the place ELOHIM YIREH. Please note the comment by these translators at the passage of Genesis 22:14:

“Since, according to the bible itself, the name Yahweh – translated “LORD” in most modern editions of the Bible – was later revealed to Moses in the book of Exodus [3:13-15], students of the Pentateuch have long debated the use of Yahweh in the book of Genesis. A common solution suggests that an early author/editor indiscriminately used the term in his copying of the text. 4QGen-Exod – sure to fuel the debate afresh – “replaces” the term Yahweh in Genesis 22:14 with the more common Hebrew term for God. Thus the familiar Jehovah Jireh becomes Elohim Jireh.”

I may also add that only one source of the Pentateuch, the J source, uses the name Yahweh but other sources use the name El. Even the Jewish Encyclopaedia admits this fact when it comments on the name Yahweh art. Names of God:

"This name, according to the narrative in Ex. iii. (E), was made known to Moses in a vision at Horeb. In another, parallel narrative (Ex. vi. 2, 3, P) it is stated that the name was not known to the Patriarchs. It is used by one of the ocumentary sources of Genesis (J), but scarcely if at all by the others."

It just seems strange that Abraham would still refer to El and not Yahweh even though God supposedly revealed his name to be Yahweh. I think it really is about El being the original god and Yahweh later becoming the God of Israel.

It's pretty clear to me that El became the supreme god to the Hebrew based on the Canaanite god El. This link goes further into it if you want to discuss more.

http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/El
 
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Vollbracht

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Or,
Sunbeams or sunrays can be cleary visible through the Clouds or through a window, so much so, it is if one can grasp them with the hand
and then they are gone,
Where do they go if not back to their scource/return.

So also with the soul?

If very simply put,

The body is the lightbulb,
the soul is the electricity.

simply put.

Interesting. Thank you for your replies.
 
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