Are We Christians or Israelites?

SpiritRehab

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10 " The fear of יהוה is the beginning of wisdom, All those doing them have a good understanding. His praise is standing forever. " Is a very good START.
...
Obedience to the COMMANDS of YAHshua / Jesus , being
echoes from The Ultimate Infinite Creator Elohim YAH . )
Hallelu-YAH .

Hi Ron4Shua :)

I also believe the Fear of YHWH is the beginning of wisdom & thus belongs in the Gospel Message, through the mention of Creation, Sin, Fall, Punishment, Coming Wrath, then Salvation; so people know what they are being saved from & why they need saving :) Halleluyah! Thanks to Yahoshua :)

But I don't believe obedience to the commands of Yahoshua, are a requirement of Salvation; rather a growing Fruit of the Saved. As He said, He who hears the law & does them, shall live, but He also said, with Man it is impossible.

So I believe the only requirements of Salvation, are:
1. The hearing or reading of the Gospel Message
2. The hearing or reading of Yahoshua's teachings
( basic discipleship / elementary principles )
3. The Wicked Heart's reaction to Yahoshua's Work & Words
( acknowledgement of own evil / His righteousness )
4. Humility in confessing & asking for Salvation, in Messiah's name.
( I am a sinner, deserving punishment, please forgiving me )
5. Persisting with the Saints, until Yahowah sends the Holy Spirit
( making us one with Messiah, thus Sinless & Righteous )
---------------------------------------------------------------
After this, the person has entered Salvation / Grace
and but can still fail to receive the fulfilment of salvation,
Resurrection,
but only by the most heinous sins:
Blaspheming the Holy Spirit
Harming a Child (sexually? killing their faith?)
Taking the Mark of the Beast

Also, only after entering Salvation
is a person able to keep the Law,
by the power of the Holy Spirit.
Thus Righteousness,
is by Faith,
and Lawfullness
is a Fruit of Salvation,
not a requirement.

Please let me know what you think of this understanding?
Thanks :)
 
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ron4shua

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Greetings my brother , I'm working on a reply for you but your statement below is a
Sunday punch . I have to comment " IT ".

But I don't believe obedience to the commands of Yahoshua, are a requirement of Salvation; rather a growing Fruit of the Saved. As He said, He who hears the law & does them, shall live, but He also said, with Man it is impossible.
googletag.cmd.push(function() { googletag.display('div-gpt-ad-1431698694306-1'); });

http://biblehub.com/isr/galatians/5.htm
22But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, trustworthiness,

23gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no Torah.

24And those who are of Messiah have impaled the flesh with its passions and the desires.

25If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit.

http://biblehub.com/isr/ephesians/5.htm
6Let no one deceive you with empty words,a for because of these the wrath of Elohim comes upon the sons of disobedience.

7Therefore do not become partakers with them.

8For you were once darkness,a but now you are light in the Master. Walk as children of light –

9for the fruit of the Spirita is in all goodness, and righteousness, and truth –

10proving what is well-pleasing to the Master.

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/8.htm
20For the creation was subjected to futility, not from choice, but because of Him who subjected it, in anticipation,

21that the creation itself also shall be delivered from the bondage to corruption into the esteemed freedom of the children of Elohim.

22For we know that all the creation groans together, and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now.

23And not only so, but even we ourselves who have the first-fruits of the Spirit, we ourselves also groan within ourselves, eagerly waiting for the adoption, the redemption of our body.

24For in this expectation we were saved, but expectation that is seen is not expectation, for when anyone sees, does he expect it?

25And if we expect what we do not see, we eagerly wait for it with endurance.

26And in the same way the Spirit does help in our weaknesses. For we do not know what we should pray, but the Spirit Himself pleads our case for us with groanings unutterable.

YOU my brother , MAY SEE " disobedience " to a command expounded by our MASTER .
I'm unable to .
What I do see is ; http://biblehub.com/isr/mark/12.htm
“Which is the first command of all?”

29And יהושע answered him, “The first of all the commands is, ‘Hear, O Yisra’ĕl, יהוה our Elohim, יהוה is one.

30‘And you shall love יהוה your Elohim with all your heart, and with all your being, and with all your mind, and with all your strength.’ This is the first command.

31“And the second, like it, is this, ‘You shall love your neighbour as yourself.’ There is no other command greater than these.”

http://biblehub.com/isr/1_timothy/2.htm
5For there is one Elohim,a and one Mediator between Elohim and men, the Man Messiah יהושע,

6who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be witnessed in its own seasons,

7for which I was appointed a proclaimer and an emissary – I am speaking the truth in Messiah and not lying – a teacher of the gentiles in belief and truth.

http://biblehub.com/isr/acts/1.htm
1The first account I made, O Theophilos, of all that יהושע began both to do and to teach,

2until the day when He was taken up, after giving instructions through the Set-apart Spirit to the emissaries whom He had chosen,

3to whom He also presented Himself alive after His suffering by many infallible proofs, being seen by them for forty days, speaking concerning the reign of Elohim.

4And meeting with them, He commanded them not to leave Yerushalayim, but to wait for the Promise of the Father,a “which you have heard from Me –

5because Yoḥanan truly immersed in water, but you shall be immersed in the Set-apart Spirit not many days from now.”

http://biblehub.com/isr/matthew/28.htm
17And when they saw Him, they bowed to Him, but some doubted.

18And יהושע came up and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth.

19“Therefore, go and make taught ones of all the nations, immersing them in the Name of the Father and of the Son and of the Set-apart Spirit,

20teaching them to guard all that I have commanded you. And see, I am with you always, until the end of the age.” Amĕn.

DEAR brother , if you can't see " COMMANDED " in the witnesses above , I'm very sad indeed .
You of course are free to believe whatever you wish .

http://biblehub.com/isr/john/15.htm
12“This is My command, that you love one another, as I have loved you.a

13“No one has greater love than this: that one should lay down his life for his friends.

14“You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

15“No longer do I call you servants, for a servant does not know what his master is doing. But I have called you friends, for all teachings which I heard from My Father I have made known to you.

http://biblehub.com/isr/acts/10.htm
43“To this One all the prophets bear witness, that through His Name, everyone believing in Him does receive forgiveness of sins.”

44While Kĕpha was still speaking these words, the Set-apart Spirit fell upon all those hearing the word.

45And those of the circumcision who believed were astonished, as many as came with Kĕpha, because the gift of the Set-apart Spirit had been poured out on the gentiles also,

46for they were hearing them speaking with tongues and extolling Elohim. Then Kĕpha answered,

47“Is anyone able to forbid water, that these should not be immersed who have received the Set-apart Spirit – even as also we?”

48And he commanded them to be immersed in the Name of יהושע Messiah. Then they asked him to remain a few days.

Hallelu-YAH .
 
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SpiritRehab

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Greetings my brother , I'm working on a reply for you but your statement below is a
Sunday punch . I have to comment " IT ".

YOU my brother , MAY SEE " disobedience " to a command expounded by our MASTER .
I'm unable to .
What I do see is ; http://biblehub.com/isr/mark/12.htm
“Which is the first command of all?”

Hallelu-YAH .

First, I'd like to correct myself.
I wrote, "But I don't believe obedience to the commands of Yahoshua, are a requirement of Salvation; rather a growing Fruit of the Saved." but I meant to write, But I don't believe obedience to the commands of Yahoshua, are a requirement of Salvation; rather a growing Fruit of those who have entered Salvation."

I don't believe Salvation is Fulfilled, past tense, until resurrection.

Anyway, the passages you shared support what I believe. That obedience to the Messiah, is a fruit of salvation; that fruit being love. ie. If you love me, keep my commandments.

Thus, keeping commandments cannot be a requirement of salvation, but a fruit of it. As one who has not entered salvation, does not love Him, thus won't keep His commandments. Only those who have entered salvation, received Faith and bear the fruit of love, will keep His commandments.

I'm not sure if that is exactly what you were commenting on or not?
I'm not sure what you meant by, "disobedience to a command expounded by ur Master,"

Anyway, let me know what you think.
Thanks :)
 
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ron4shua

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Dear brother , if you can point out , where I intimated in words " commandments of Moses , law .
I'll give myself 39 strokes with , my cat of nine tails .

Have you read your favored version of Scripture , cover to cover ? HOW MANY , cover to cover ?

http://biblehub.com/isr/mark/12.htm
22“And the seven left no offspring. Last of all the woman died too.

23“In the resurrection then, when they rise, whose wife shall she be? For seven had her as wife.”

24And יהושע answering, said to them, “Is this not why you go astray, because you do not know the Scripturesa nor the power of Elohim?

25“For when they rise from the dead, they neither marry nor are given in marriage, but are as messengers in the heavens.

26“And concerning the dead, that they rise – have you not read in the book of Mosheh, at the bush, how Elohim spoke to him, saying, ‘I am the Elohim of Aḇraham, and the Elohim of Yitsḥaq, and the Elohim of Ya‛aqoḇ’?

27“He is not the Elohim of the dead, but Elohim of the living. You, then, go greatly astray.”

Please my brother .......... READ THIS SLOW , please see
" but are as messengers in the heavens. "
“He is not the Elohim of the dead, but Elohim of the living. You, then, go greatly astray.”

http://biblehub.com/isr/hebrews/9.htm
24For Messiah has not entered into a Set-apart Place made by hand – figures of the true – but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,

25not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters into the Set-apart Place year by year with blood not his own.

26For if so, He would have had to suffer often, since the foundation of the world. But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself.

27And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment,

28so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance.

Again my brother .... slow & please see
" but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,"
" But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself. "
" And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, "
" so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance.

( " shall appear a second time " , to each one of His " Called " individually , in their own time . )

http://biblehub.com/isr/romans/5.htm
17For if by the trespass of the one, death did reign through the one, much more those who receive the overflowing favour and the gift of righteousness shall reign in life through the One, יהושע Messiah.

18So then, as through one trespass there resulted condemnation to all men, so also through one righteous act there resulted righteous-declaring of life to all men.

19For as through the disobedience of one man many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the One many shall be made righteous.

20And the Torah came in beside, so that the trespass would increase. But where sin increased, favour increased still more,

21so that as sin did reign in death, even so favour might reign through righteousness to everlasting life through יהושע Messiah our Master.

http://biblehub.com/isr/john/8.htm
50“And I do not seek My own esteem, there is One who is seeking and is judging.

51“Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone guards My Word he shall never see death at all.”

http://biblehub.com/isr/john/11.htm
25יהושע said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he dies, he shall live.

26“And everyone that is living and believing in Me shall never die at all. Do you believe this?”


Hallelu-YAH .
 
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ron4shua

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http://biblehub.com/isr/1_corinthians/15.htm
1But brothers, I make known to you the Good News, which I brought as Good News to you, which you also did receive, and in which you stand,

2through which also you are being saved, if you hold fast that word I brought as Good News to you. Otherwise, you have believed in vain.

3For I delivered to you at the first that which I also received: that Messiah died for our sins according to the Scriptures,

4and that He was buried, and that He was raised the third day, according to the Scriptures,

5and that He was seen by Kĕpha, then by the twelve.

6After that He was seen by over five hundred brothers at one time, of whom the greater part remain till now, but some have fallen asleep.

7After that He was seen by Ya‛aqoḇ, then by all the emissaries.

8And last of all He was seen by me also, as if to one born prematurely.

9For I am the least of the emissaries, who am not worthy to be called an emissary, because I persecuted the assembly of Elohim.

10But by the favour of Elohim I am what I am, and His favour toward me was not in vain, but I laboured much more than they all, yet not I, but the favour of Elohim with me.

11Whether, then, it was I or they, so we proclaimed and so you believed.

12And if Messiah is proclaimed that He has been raised from the dead, how do some among you say that there is no resurrection of the dead?

13And if there is no resurrection of the dead, then Messiah has not been raised.

14And if Messiah has not been raised, then our proclaiming is empty, and your belief also empty,

15and we are also found false witnesses of Elohim, because we have witnessed of Elohim that He raised up Messiah, whom He did not raise up, if then the dead are not raised.

16For if the dead are not raised, then neither Messiah has been raised.

17And if Messiah has not been raised, your belief is to no purpose, you are still in your sins!

18Then also those who have fallen asleep in Messiah have perished.

19If in this life only we have expectation in Messiah, we are of all men the most wretched.

20But now Messiah has been raised from the dead, and has become the first-fruit of those having fallen asleep.

21For since death is through a man, resurrection of the dead is also through a Man.

22For as all die in Aḏam, so also all shall be made alive in Messiah.

23And each in his own order: Messiah the first-fruits, then those who are of Messiah at His coming,

24then the end, when He delivers up the reign to Elohim the Father, when He has brought to naught all rule and all authority and power.

25For He has to reign until He has put all enemies under His feet.

26The last enemy to be brought to naught is death.

27For “He has put all under His feet.” But when He says “all are put under Him,” it is clear that He who put all under Him is excepted.

28And when all are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself shall also be subject to Him who put all under Him, in order that Elohim be all in all.

29Otherwise, what shall they do who are immersed for the dead, if the dead are not raised at all? Why indeed are they immersed for the dead?

30And why do we stand in danger every hour?

31I affirm, by the boasting in you which I have in Messiah יהושע our Master, I die day by day.

32If, as men do, I have fought with beasts at Ephesos, of what good is it to me? If the dead are not raised, “Let us eat and drink, for tomorrow we die.”

33Do not be led astray, “Evil company corrupts good habits.”

34Wake up to soberness, righteously, and do not sin, for some do not have the knowledge of Elohim. I speak this to your shame.

35But someone might say, “How are the dead raised up? And with what body do they come?”

36Senseless one! What you sow is not made alive unless it dies.

37And as to what you sow: you do not sow the body which is to be, but a bare grain, it might be wheat or some other grain.

38But Elohim gives it a body as He wishes, and to each seed a body of its own.

39All flesh is not the same flesh, but there is one flesh of men, and another flesh of beasts, and another of fishes, and another of birds.

40And there are heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the esteem of the heavenly is truly one, and the esteem of the earthly is another,

41one esteem of the sun, and another esteem of the moon, and another esteem of the stars – for star differs from star in esteem.

42So also is the resurrection of the dead: it is sown in corruption, it is raised in incorruption;

43it is sown in disrespect, it is raised in esteem; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power;

44it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body; there is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45And so it has been written, “The first man Aḏam became a living being,” the last Aḏam a life-giving Spirit.

46The spiritual, however, was not first, but the natural, and afterward the spiritual.

47The first man was of the earth, earthy; the second Man is the Master from heaven.

48As is the earthy, so also are those who are earthy; and as is the heavenly, so also are those who are heavenly.

49And as we have borne the likeness of the earthy, we shall also bear the likeness of the heavenly.

50And this I say, brothers, that flesh and blood is unable to inherit the reign of Elohim, neither does corruption inherit incorruption.

51See, I speak a secret to you: We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

52in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

53For this corruptible has to put on incorruption, and this mortal to put on immortality.

54And when this corruptible has put on incorruption, and this mortal has put on immortality, then shall come to be the word that has been written, “Death is swallowed up in overcoming.”

55“O Death, where is your sting? O grave, where is your overcoming?”

56And the sting of death is the sin, and the power of the sin is the Torah.

57But thanks to Elohim who gives us the overcoming through our Master יהושע Messiah.

58Therefore, my beloved brothers, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Master, knowing that your labour is not in vain in the Master.
 
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SpiritRehab

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Dear brother, if you can point out, where I intimated in words " commandments of Moses, law.

I don't understand what you mean?

Have you read your favored version of Scripture , cover to cover ? HOW MANY , cover to cover ?

Not yet <:)

Please my brother .......... READ THIS SLOW , please see
" but are as messengers in the heavens. "
“He is not the Elohim of the dead, but Elohim of the living. You, then, go greatly astray.”

I thought He was speaking in a future tense. That all His saints, from Adam to the last man, who are sanctified, will be glorified and so they are not dead, but alive with Him. Just as when John went up to the 3rd heaven, he saw the 24 elders; though in his time, they were not yet resurrected.

Again my brother .... slow & please see
" but into the heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of Elohim on our behalf,"
" But now He has appeared once for all at the end of the ages to put away sin by the offering of Himself. "
" And as it awaits men to die once, and after this the judgment, "
" so also the Messiah, having been offered once to bear the sins of many, shall appear a second time, apart from sin, to those waiting for Him, unto deliverance.

( " shall appear a second time " , to each one of His " Called " individually , in their own time . )
Hallelu-YAH .

I thought this means, that He has appeared at the altar in Heaven and presented Himself the sacrifice for the whole world, and so now Salvation is in His hands. So now He chooses at the end, who will be saved & whom He will reject; having paid the penalty for all Humanity.
 
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SpiritRehab

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Darn. I thought Mark was going to say something that would bring meaning to this train wreck.

Who's Mark?
The Administrator?

Yeah, I guess we did get derailed.
From the name God calls His people
to how Salvation works :)
 
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Open Heart

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The question in the OP is a no brainer. We are Christians, like the term or not. Israelites (children of Israel) is an older term for the Jews. Unless you were born of a Jewish mother or are a convert to Judaism, you are not an Israelite.
 
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SpiritRehab

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The question in the OP is a no brainer. We are Christians, like the term or not. Israelites (children of Israel) is an older term for the Jews. Unless you were born of a Jewish mother or are a convert to Judaism, you are not an Israelite.

Please let me know what you think about the following:

1. Was the name Christian given to us by God or by Unbelievers?

Acts 11:26 - And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.

Acts 26:28 - Then Agrippa said unto Paul, "Almost thou persuadest me to be a Christian."

1st Peter 4:16 - Yet if any man suffer as a Christian, let him not be ashamed; but let him glorify God on this behalf.

Peter is saying, the name Christian is a derogatory term, but that we ought to glorify God for being counted worthy to suffer for His Gospel. By this we can understand that King Agrippa was paying Paul a backhanded compliment and scoffing that He, a King, ought to become a lowly Christian; as Christians were subject to persecution. Nowhere in the New Testament does God call His people Christians.

2. Judaism has very little to do with God or the Old Testament.

Luke 16:31 - And he said unto him, "if they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead."

John 5:46 - For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.

1st John 2:23 - Whosoever denieth the Son, the same hath not the Father, but he that acknowledgeth the Son, hath the Father also.

3. Who is a Jew?

Romans 2:28-29 - For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh 29 but he is a Jew, which is one inwardly and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Revelation 2:9 - I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, but thou art rich, and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

Revelation 3:9 - Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie. Behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

If a convert to Judaism or a person born of a Jewish mother, does not believe Moses & the Prophets, thus Messiah also, they are not Jews in God's eyes. Only Jews who believe God's Word are Jews, according to Paul & Jesus; a Benjaminite & a Judahite.

4. Is Israel an old name for Jew?

Genesis 49 - Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Judah, Zebulun, Issachar, Dan, Gad, Asher, Naphtali, Joseph, Benjamin -- 28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; everyone according to his blessing he blessed them.

Revelation 21:12 - and had a wall great and high, and had twelve gates, and at the gates twelve angels, and names written thereon, which are the names of the twelve tribes of the children of Israel.

Jews are just one of the 12 Tribes of Israel. The tribes of Levi, Benjamin & Judah, were collectively referred to as Jews, because they were of the Kingdom of Judah. It is a nationality, while only children of Judah are ethnically Jews.

So when the Bible says, Israel, it's not only talking about ethnic Jewish people.

5. Who is Israel?

Exodus 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn.

Romans 9 - 6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel. 7 Neither because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children; but, "in Isaac shall thy seed be called," 8 That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

Romans 11 - 16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy, and if the root be holy, so are the branches. -- 22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity, but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in His goodness; otherwise thou also shalt be cut off. 23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in; for God is able to graff them in again. 24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree, which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree, how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

Ephesians 2:12 - That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world.

Jesus is Israel, and only those who are one with Him, in the Holy Spirit, by Grace through Faith, both native born or gentile believer, are considered Israel; by God's Word :)

6. What does God call His New Covenant People?

Matthew 2:6 - And thou Bethlehem, in the land of Juda, art not the least among the princes of Juda: for out of thee shall come a Governor, that shall rule my people Israel.

Romans 11:25-26 - 25 For I would not, brethren that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own coceits, that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in. 26 And so all Israel shall be saved. As it is written, There shall come out of Sion, the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungoliness from Jacob.

Jeremiah 31:33 - But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel, after those days, saith YHWH: I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.

For all these reasons, I believe God calls us Israel & Israelites, while the name Christian, is how the world knows us. As even Jesus Himself said,

John 1:47 - Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, "Behold an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile!"

Please let me know what you think?
Thanks for reading :)
 
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Open Heart

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1. Was the name Christian given to us by God or by Unbelievers?
It was given to us by unbelievers, but we adopted it. It has lost its stigma today. God didn't give us any name at all.
 
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Open Heart

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2. Judaism has very little to do with God or the Old Testament.
Judaism is the name of the religion which follows the covenant given to Moses at Sinai, so yes it has everything to do with God and the OT. As a Hebrew Catholic I'm quite familiar with Judaism.
 
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Open Heart

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3. Who is a Jew?
Paul's figurative statements aside, a Jew is one born of a Jewish woman or a convert to Judaism.
The Synagogue of Satan, or false Jew, would be a gentile claiming to be a Jew. A few Christians fall into this category.
 
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Open Heart

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4. Is Israel an old name for Jew?
The word Jew comes from the Babylonian word for the exiles out of the Kingdom of Judah. The Kingdom of Judah included mostly the tribe of Judah, Benjamin, and Levi, but also refugees from the other 10 tribes who had fled South when the Northern kingdom of Israel fell. Thus "Jew" referred to all 12 tribes of Israel plus Levi.
 
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Open Heart

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5. Who is Israel?
You have not proven my point wrong. You have provided one verse in which Paul speaks figuratively. You provided another verse about grafting -- grafting doesn't change the species of the graft (a peach tree grafted onto plum roots still bears peaches). And finally you provided a verse about the commonwealth, which is a larger circle than just Israel. Nice try.
 
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SpiritRehab

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It was given to us by unbelievers, but we adopted it. It has lost its stigma today. God didn't give us any name at all.

I'm glad we're agreed that "Christian" is a name given to us by Unbelievers, as a hate term. I also agree with you that it has lost it's stigma and is generally a good name on the Earth.

Here are some passages, which I believe show that God did give His people a name.

Genesis 25:21-26 - 21 And Isaac intreated YHWH, for his wife, because she was barren, and YHWH was intreated of him, and Rebekah, his wife, conceived. 22 And the children struggled together within her, and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of YHWH.
23 And YHWH said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over, like an hairy garment, and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel, and his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Genesis 32:27-28 - And He said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Deuteronomy 4:19-20 - And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them and serve them, which YHWH thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. 20 But YHWH hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9 For YHWH's portion is His people. Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

The name Israel was given to a Man by God in Genesis and used by God, in reference to His people, from Exodus to Revelation.

Here are 4 more passages to support my understanding, that Israel is name YHWH gave His people; in both the Old & New Covenants.

Exodus 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

2nd Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Daniel 9:19 - O Lord, hear. O Lord, forgive. O Lord, hearken and do. Defer not, for thine own sake, O my God. For thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Hebrews 8:10 - For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH. I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Israel is the only name given by God,
which God also also called Himself and His people.

I will reply later to some of the other points you shared.
Thanks for reading :)
 
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Open Heart

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I'm glad we're agreed that "Christian" is a name given to us by Unbelievers, as a hate term. I also agree with you that it has lost it's stigma and is generally a good name on the Earth.

Here are some passages, which I believe show that God did give His people a name.

Genesis 25:21-26 - 21 And Isaac intreated YHWH, for his wife, because she was barren, and YHWH was intreated of him, and Rebekah, his wife, conceived. 22 And the children struggled together within her, and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of YHWH.
23 And YHWH said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over, like an hairy garment, and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel, and his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Genesis 32:27-28 - And He said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Deuteronomy 4:19-20 - And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them and serve them, which YHWH thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. 20 But YHWH hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9 For YHWH's portion is His people. Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

The name Israel was given to a Man by God in Genesis and used by God, in reference to His people, from Exodus to Revelation.

Here are 4 more passages to support my understanding, that Israel is name YHWH gave His people; in both the Old & New Covenants.

Exodus 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

2nd Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Daniel 9:19 - O Lord, hear. O Lord, forgive. O Lord, hearken and do. Defer not, for thine own sake, O my God. For thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

Hebrews 8:10 - For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH. I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Israel is the only name given by God,
which God also also called Himself and His people.

I will reply later to some of the other points you shared.
Thanks for reading :)
I don't know why you are giving all these OT verses. Of course God gave the name of Israel to the physical descendants of Israel, those who shared the Sinai covenant. They have nothing to do with the People of God in the NT, to whom God gave no name.
 
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SpiritRehab

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I don't know why you are giving all these OT verses.

Okay, I will emphasize the parts of each passage that is relevant to our discussion.

Genesis 25:21-26 - 21 And Isaac intreated YHWH, for his wife, because she was barren, and YHWH was intreated of him, and Rebekah, his wife, conceived. 22 And the children struggled together within her, and she said, If it be so, why am I thus? And she went to enquire of YHWH.
23 And YHWH said unto her, Two nations are in thy womb, and two manner of people shall be separated from thy bowels, and the one people shall be stronger than the other people, and the elder shall serve the younger.
24 And when her days to be delivered were fulfilled, behold, there were twins in her womb. 25 And the first came out red, all over, like an hairy garment, and they called his name Esau. 26 And after that came his brother out, and his hand took hold on Esau's heel, and his name was called Jacob; and Isaac was threescore years old when she bare them.

Esau & Jacob represnt 2 types of people; the lost & the saved.
As beautifully foreshadowed in their Birth-right dealings.

Esau forsook the Blessing, for the things of the flesh: food.
Jacob put on the Elder Brother's look, to receive the Blessing.
Foreshadowing how we put on Jesus, washed by His Blood & clothed by His Righteousness.

Genesis 32:27-28 - And He said unto him, What is thy name? And he said, Jacob.
28 And He said, Thy name shall be called no more Jacob, but Israel: for as a prince hast thou power with God and with men, and hast prevailed.

Just as evidence that Israel is a God given name.

Deuteronomy 4:19-20 - And lest thou lift up thine eyes unto heaven, and when thou seest the sun, and the moon, and the stars, even all the host of heaven, shouldest be driven to worship them and serve them, which YHWH thy God hath divided unto all nations under the whole heaven. 20 But YHWH hath taken you, and brought you forth out of the iron furnace, even out of Egypt, to be unto Him a people of inheritance, as ye are this day.

Deuteronomy 32:8-9 - When the Most High divided to the nations their inheritance, when He separated the sons of Adam, He set the bounds of the people according to the number of the children of Israel. 9 For YHWH's portion is His people. Jacob is the lot of His inheritance.

All the peoples of the world had turned away from YHWH, at Babel, so He gave them as inheritance to his fallen sons, the evil angels; but for His only begotten Son, Jesus, He made a new people, from Abraham, Isaac & Jacob; and named them after His Son, Israel.

Exodus 4:22 - And thou shalt say unto Pharaoh, Thus saith YHWH, Israel is my son, even my firstborn:

Here YHWH is speaking a wonderful mystery. He reveals that Israel is one of the names of His Son; Jesus.

2nd Chronicles 7:14 - If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves and pray, and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land.

Daniel 9:19 - O Lord, hear. O Lord, forgive. O Lord, hearken and do. Defer not, for thine own sake, O my God. For thy city and thy people are called by thy name.

His people are by Grace through Faith, not by ethnicity.
Abraham was chosen, not because he was Babylonian, but because he was Faithful. Ishmael was born of the flesh, but Isaac was born of Faith, so he was considered the promised seed, not Ishmael. And Jacob I explained above.

So in all I am trying to show that YHWH gave the name Israel, that it is one of His names and He calls His people by it; and of course as every Christian knows, His people are neither Jew nor Gentile who do not believe, but only Jews & Gentiles who believe.

Please let me know if you understand how these passages are relevant to NT Believers. Thank :)

Of course God gave the name of Israel to the physical descendants of Israel, those who shared the Sinai covenant. They have nothing to do with the People of God in the NT, to whom God gave no name.

Hebrews 8:10 - For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith YHWH. I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people.

Finally, YHWH says He makes the New Covenant with Israel, who (by the time He spoke those words and even more so by the time Jesus came & made the New Covenant) had been scattered & were considered Gentiles as well.

So when God made it possible for those now gentile tribes to enter back into covenant with Him, He also opened the door for all gentiles :)

Anyone of Tribes of Israel, Tribes of Judah, or Tribes of the Gentile Nations, who are saved by Grace through Faith in Jesus, are made one with Jesus aka grafted into Israel, "my son, even my firstborn."

I hope I didn't come across rude.
Just trying to explain it as clearly as possible.
Thanks for reading :)
 
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