Dispensationalism

classicalhero

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Christians are partakers of the spiritual blessing of the covenants that God gave to the Jews. We are blessed because of the Jews being God's chosen people and it is through the Messiah that we can partake of the spiritual blessing. All the Covenants are fulfilled when Christ takes up his kingdom and takes his rightful plce as ruler of the whole of the heavens and the earth. We are partakers, not over takers of the covenant.

http://www.messianicassociation.org/ezine19-af.covenants.htm
 
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Ken Rank

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I was looking for your understanding of the Davidic Covenant. :)

I see it as an extension of an existing covenant. When Adam fell God put into place a plan to redeem those who would ultimately aim their hearts at Him... and this is simply a link in the chain. David foreshadowed Messiah in more ways than most realize. He was king of Jerusalem... King of Peace while Yeshua stands as Prince of Peace and a price becomes a King. David was also a priest, but not a Levitical priest, but rather, a Melchizedekian priest as shown here:

2 Sam 8:18 and Benaiah the son of Jehoiada was over both the Cherethites and the Pelethites; and the sons of David were priests (cohen).

Melchizedek himself was King of Salem (peace) and the priest in whose order even WE follow being that royal priesthood. But all this starts with Adam and his fall but also the promise to redeem through child birth. God then begins to build on that promise by instituting His covenant with Noach (Gen. 6:18), and then Abraham (Gen. 17:2), and from there the progression continues as seen in Psalm 105:8-10. I don't see breaks in time brother, I see a plan by God that starts small and simple and that He adds to as time goes on. This is why I share when asked (and sometimes when not :) ) that when we speak of the "new covenant" whether in Hebrew or Greek, it is the word for renewed, not brand new. In Hebrew (Jer. 31:31) we see chadashah translated as "new" but the word is the Hebrew word for to make fresh/renew in an adjective form... it remains renewed. In the Greek (Heb. 8:8) it is kainos which Strong's defines as "new in regards to freshness whereas as nehos is new in regards to age." Sure God has added to it.. the "weight" has been transferred from one order to another, and the location of the words of the covenant move from stone to the heart. Same words, same God, same plan... renewed through Christ.
 
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Pedrito

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In Post #31, it was stated:
There are no such things as differing rewards in Heaven. We all get whatever Christ has earned for us.
I couldn't help thinking of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, which tells us:
11 For any other foundation can no one lay than the one] being laid, who is Jesus Christ.
12 And if anyone builds on this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble,
13 each one's work shall be revealed. For the Day shall declare [it], because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try each one's work as to what kind it is.
14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.
 
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JM

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“"Those who claim Christians will receive rewards in heaven for imperfect 'good' works are deluding themselves. While they insist the works are necessary to prove the genuineness of professed faith, but are not required for earning heaven, they fail to understand that works are an evidence of genuineness of professed faith, not a proof of it. I’m sorry to say I believe the whole doctrine is contrived and contradictory. As in saying that post-justification works have sin in them, and yet also saying that they still can merit reward because the guilt of sin has been removed. But what they fail to address is that if the guilt of sin is removed, the works are then ‘perfect.’ So how could one’s work merit more than another, when they are both perfect? It is vain and circular reasoning in confusion and contradiction, because it’s not true."” – Tony Warren

I posted a bunch of quotes and sermons by Don Fortner here: Will There Be Degrees of Rewards in Heaven? | Feileadh Mor
 
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Pedrito

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In Post #31, it was stated:

Rom. 9-11 does show Paul's concern for his natural kin but in no way teaches that the ethnic nation will be saved and are different from the church.

When I look closely at Romans 11, it leaves me a little puzzled.

"1 I say then, Did not God put away His people? Let it not be [said]! For I also am an Israelite, of the seed of Abraham, of [the] tribe of Benjamin.
2 God did not thrust out His people whom He foreknew. Or do you not know what the Scripture said in Elijah, how he pleaded with God against Israel, saying,"

Paul then explains that some of fleshly Israel will make it into the Church with the gentile believers.

But when I look at

"11 I say then, Did they not stumble that they fall? Let it not be! But by their slipping away came salvation to the nations, to provoke them to jealousy.
12 But if their slipping away [is] the riches of [the] world, and their default is [the] riches of [the] nations, how much more their fullness?
.
.
25 For I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, lest you should be wise within yourselves; that blindness in part has happened to Israel, until the fullness of the nations has comes in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved; as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and He will turn away ungodliness from Jacob.
27 For this [is] My covenant with them, when I have taken away their sins.
28 Indeed as regards the gospel, [they are] enemies for your sakes. But as regards the election, [they are] beloved for the fathers' sakes.
29 For the free gifts and calling of God [are] without repentance.
30 For as you also then disbelieved God, but now have been shown mercy through their disbelief,
31 even so these also have not believed now, so that through your mercy they may also obtain mercy.
32 For God has shut up all in unbelief, so that He might show mercy to all."

I can't help wondering, is it referring to spiritual Israel and the nation Israel separately? Could it be linking back to Jeremiah 34:31-34?

"31 Behold, the days come, says the LORD, that I will cut a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah,
32 not according to the covenant that I cut with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which covenant of Mine they broke, although I was a husband to them, says the LORD;
33 but this [shall be] the covenant that I will cut with the house of Israel: After those days, says the LORD, I will put My law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

34 And they shall no more teach each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know the LORD; for they shall all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sins no more."


I note that Ken Rank has pointed out that the “new” in “new covenant”, both in Hebrew and Greek, is the word meaning “renewed” or “refreshed” rather than “brand new”. But does that not mean that the refreshed covenant (not a brand new one) must be with the same people as the covenant in its original form? (It seems to be by definition the same covenant.)

Maybe it depends on what the Millennium is all about. I assume there is uniform understanding within the Baptist communion in this respect, and that that view has not changed over time.

I would welcome some instruction on that subject.
 
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Pedrito

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All of this dispensation discussion has brought something to mind. I've often wondered what nations and families of the Earth are referred to in (MKJV):

"Genesis 12:3 ... And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 18:18 And Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the persons [nations] of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Genesis 22:18 And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Genesis 26:4 … And in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed,
Genesis 28:14 ... And in you and in your Seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

Does “all” include those nations and families in existence in Abraham's time? Does it include only those in existence in Jesus' time and since? What about families and nations that disappeared (were wiped out) between Abraham's time and Jesus'? What about those families that were wiped out since Jesus' time without ever having heard the Gospel? (For instance, the Amazon tribes that were wiped out so that big business could claim the “uninhabited” land.) What about families pre-flood?

I know God is not the author of confusion, so the whole of Scripture must tie together clearly and neatly somehow.
 
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twin1954

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In Post #31, it was stated:

I couldn't help thinking of 1 Corinthians 3:11-15, which tells us:
The context of the passage is talking about preachers. What he builds on the foundation and those who he teaches are his work. His doctrine will stand or be burned. It has nothing to do with differing rewards in Heaven.
 
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Winepress777

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There is certainly some truth to what you say about those who are justified by faith in the Old and New Testaments.

But there are those who ignore Pentecost as the birthday of the church when the Holy Spirit came to indwell born again believers in the risen Lord Jesus, who ignore the fact that Israel's blessings are earthly as compared with the church's, as a heavenly people, being spiritual. The is a distinction between the Scriptures which speak about the Lord's future coming in power and glory as opposed to His coming to receive the church in the air.

It is indeed possible to have both an emphasis on the sovereignty of God in the Gospel as well as to see Scriptural distinctives between Israel and the church, between being under law in the Old Testament and being under grace in the New Testament. Preachers and teachers such as John MacArthur Jr. in fact manage to combine both of these healthy perspectives.
THIS... is typical "dispensationalism". An "explanation" of things scriptural, distinctives made, then re "combined" by men of "renown". Well said.
 
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twin1954

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All of this dispensation discussion has brought something to mind. I've often wondered what nations and families of the Earth are referred to in (MKJV):

"Genesis 12:3 ... And in you shall all families of the earth be blessed.
Genesis 18:18 And Abraham shall surely become a great and mighty nation, and all the persons [nations] of the earth shall be blessed in him?
Genesis 22:18 And in your Seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice.
Genesis 26:4 … And in your seed shall all the nations of the earth be blessed,
Genesis 28:14 ... And in you and in your Seed shall all the families of the earth be blessed."

Does “all” include those nations and families in existence in Abraham's time? Does it include only those in existence in Jesus' time and since? What about families and nations that disappeared (were wiped out) between Abraham's time and Jesus'? What about those families that were wiped out since Jesus' time without ever having heard the Gospel? (For instance, the Amazon tribes that were wiped out so that big business could claim the “uninhabited” land.) What about families pre-flood?

I know God is not the author of confusion, so the whole of Scripture must tie together clearly and neatly somehow.
The blessing, of course, is Christ. Paul makes a whole argument from the singleness of the word seed in the promise given to Abraham in Gal. 3:7-16. As for the word all; you know that the word always needs a qualifier in order to understand to what or whom "all" refers to. Here it is all the nations of the world. In Rev. 5:9 we find the redeemed singing that they were redeemed out of every kindred, and tongue and people and nation.

God has His chosen, the elect, scattered throughout the world. He calls to the North and to the South to give up and not hold back His chosen. Isa. 43:5-7 He calls them by His Gospel. Christ redeemed people He didn't redeem nations.

You might notice that in Gal. 3:8 that the Gospel was preached to Abraham. He didn't know all the details as we do but he knew of his Redeemer. Job, considered the oldest book of the Bible being written either earlier or perhaps during the era of Abraham, clearly tells us that Job knew of his redeemer:
(Job 19:25) For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:


(Job 19:26) And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:


(Job 19:27) Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me.

The first promise of Christ in the Gospel is found in Genesis 3:15 speaking of Christ the woman's seed.

The whole of the Bible has one message and one theme, Christ Jesus the Lord.
 
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JM

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Pedriot,

I can't help wondering, is it referring to spiritual Israel and the nation Israel separately? Could it be linking back to Jeremiah 34:31-34?

The covenant made with Abraham was promised in Gen. 3 in what is called the proto-evangelium or the first Gospel. This covenant was of free grace while the covenant made with Adam was a covenant of works. Notice how the Mosaic covenant the covenant made with Adam were both “do and live.” Adam was to tend the garden and not eat of the forbidden fruit to remain in the garden. This covenant was republished and expanded when it was given to Moses. The Mosaic covenant was a national covenant that did not depend on faith so yes, there is a spiritual Israel not according to the flesh in every age and in every generation. "For one is not a Jew outwardly..." Circumcision was performed as a duty and even the unbeliever, servants and salves had to have the ritual performed. The covenant made with Abraham promised a “righteousness by faith” and that was performed for us in Jesus Christ. The newness of the new covenant was that it was the fulfillment of the covenant promised to Abraham. The passage from Genesis reads, “I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel.” Gen 3:15 “God assures the devil that a son of Eve will do battle with him, defeat him, and destroy him, even though the devil will wound him in this conflict” [Covenant Theology, Greg Nichols, pg 125].

For a full outline see here.

Maybe it depends on what the Millennium is all about. I assume there is uniform understanding within the Baptist communion in this respect, and that that view has not changed over time.

I would welcome some instruction on that subject.

Historically, Baptists have lead missions due to their eschatology which was...ready for it...Post-Mil! Haha. Most Baptists today are Dispensationalists. Baptists of old tended to be Postmil, some were Premil but everyone was a Historicist. The whole reason for the modern mission movement was due to the idea that we must reach the world for Christ and Christianize it, creating a millennial period of peace on earth, before Christ returns.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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JM

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Federal or covenant theology is the heart of biblical Protestantism. Reformed, Particular Baptists, Anabaptists, Methodists, etc. all have a form of federal or covenant theology at the foundation of their theological systems. For example Methodist Minster Dr. Frank Charles Thompson of the Thompson Chain Reference Bible often used covenantal headings to organize his chain references. Baptists historically have been fully covenantal in their thinking and not Dispensational. We are now experiencing a resurgence in covenant theology in the Baptist churches.

If you are new to theology or covenant theology in particular read A. W. Pink's introduction for a better understanding of the preliminaries.

From The Divine Covenants,

The covenants occupy no subordinate place on the pages of divine revelation, as even a superficial perusal of Scripture will show. The word covenant is found no fewer than twenty-five times in the very first book of the Bible; and occurs again scores of times in the remaining books of the Pentateuch, in the Psalms and in the Prophets. Nor is the word inconspicuous in the New Testament. When instituting the great memorial of His death, the Savior said, This cup is the new covenant in my blood (Luke 22:20). When enumerating the special blessings which God had conferred on the Israelites, Paul declared that to them belonged the covenants (Rom. 9:4). To the Galatians he expounded the two covenants (4:24-31). The Ephesian saints were reminded that in their unregenerate days they were strangers to the covenants of promise. The entire Epistle to the Hebrews is an exposition of the better covenant of which Christ is mediator (8:6).

Salvation through Jesus Christ is according to the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God (Acts 2:23), and He was pleased to make known His eternal purpose of mercy unto the fathers, in the form of covenants, which were of different characters and revealed at various times. These covenants enter into the very nature, and pervade with their peculiar qualities, the whole system of divine truth. They have an intimate connection with each other and a common relation to a single purpose, being, in fact, so many successive stages in the unfolding of the scheme of divine grace. They treat the divine side of things, disclosing the source from which all blessings come to men, and making known the channel (Christ) through which they flow to them. Each one reveals some new and fundamental aspect of truth, and in considering them in their Scriptural order we may clearly perceive the progress of revelation which they respectively indicated. They set forth the great design of God accomplished by the redeemer of His people.

It has been well pointed out that; it is very obvious that because God is an intelligence He must have a plan. If He be an absolutely perfect intelligence, desiring and designing nothing but good; if He be an eternal and immutable intelligence, His plan must be one, eternal, all-comprehensive, immutable; that is, all things from His point of view must constitute one system and sustain a perfect logical relation in all its parts. Nevertheless, like all other comprehensive systems it must itself be composed of an infinite number of subordinate systems. In this respect it is like these heavens which He has made, and which He has hung before our eyes, as a type and pattern of His mode of thinking and planning in all providence.

We know that in the solar system our earth is a satellite of one of the great suns, and of this particular system we have a knowledge because of our position, but we know that this system is only one of myriads, with variations, that have been launched in the great abyss of space. So we know that this great, all-comprehensive plan of God, considered as one system, must contain a great many subordinate systems which might be studied profitably if we were in the position to do so, as self-contained whole, separate from the rest; (Lectures by A. A. Hodge). That; one system; or the eternal; of God was comprised in the everlasting covenant; the many; subordinate systems; are the various covenants God made with different ones from time.

The everlasting covenant, with its shadowings forth His temporal covenants, form the basis of all His dealings with His people. Many proofs of this are to be met with in Holy Writ. For example, when God heard the groanings of the Hebrews in Egypt, we are told that He remembered his covenant with Abraham, with Isaac and with Jacob (Ex. 2:24; cf. 6:2-8). When Israel was oppressed by the Syrians in the days of Jehoahaz, we read, And the Lord was gracious unto them, and had compassion on them, and had respect unto them, because of his covenant with Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob (2 Kings 13:23; cf. Ps. 106:43-45). At a later period, when God determined to show mercy unto Israel, after He had sorely afflicted them for their sins, He expressed it thus, Nevertheless I will remember my covenant with thee in the days of thy youth (Ezek. 16:60). As the psalmist declared, He hath given meat unto them that fear him: he will ever be mindful of his covenant (111:5).

The same blessed truth is set forth in the New Testament that the covenant is the foundation from which proceed all the gracious works of God. This is rendered as the reason for sending Christ into the world: To perform the mercy promised to our fathers, and to remember his holy covenant (Luke 1:72). Remarkable too is that word in Hebrews 13:20: Now the God of peace that brought again from the dead our Lord Jesus, that great Shepherd of the sheep, through the blood of the everlasting covenant. Another illustration of the same principle is found in Hebrews 10:15,16: Whereof the Holy Spirit also is a witness to us: for after that he had said before, This is the covenant that I will make with them after those days, saith the Lord, I will put my laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them the words .. supply proof that the good which God does unto His people is grounded on His covenant. Anything which in Scripture is said to be done unto us for Christ's sake signifies it is done by virtue of that covenant which God made with Christ as the head of His mystical body.

In like manner, when God is said to bind Himself by oath to the heirs of promise '; Wherein God, willing more abundantly to show unto the heirs of promise the immutability of his counsel, confirmed it by an oath (Heb. 6:17); it is upon the ground of His covenant engagement that He does so. In fact the one merges into the other, for in Scripture covenanting is often called by the name of swearing, and a covenant is called an oath. That thou shouldest enter into covenant with the Lord thy God, and into his oath, which the Lord thy God maketh with thee this day. . . Neither with you only do I make this covenant and this oath (Deut. 29:12,14). Be ye mindful always of his covenant, the word which he commanded to a thousand generations: even of the covenant which he made with Abraham, and of his oath unto Isaac (1 Chron. 16:15,16). And they entered into a covenant to seek the Lord God of their fathers with all their heart and with all their soul. . .And they sware unto the Lord with a loud voice; And all Judah rejoiced at the oath (l Chron. 15:12,14, l5).

Sufficient should have already been said to impress us with the weightiness of our present theme, and the great importance of arriving at a right understanding of the divine covenants. A true knowledge of the covenants is indispensable to a correct presentation of the gospel, for he who is ignorant of the fundamental difference which obtains between the covenant of works and the covenant of grace is utterly incompetent for evangelism. But by whom among us are the different covenants clearly understood? Refer unto them to the average preacher, and you at once perceive you are speaking to him in an unknown tongue. Few today discern what the covenants are in themselves, their relations to each other, and their consequent bearings upon the design of God in the Redeemer. Since the covenants pertain unto the very;rudiments of the doctrine of Christ; ignorance of them must cause obscurity to rest upon the whole gospel system.

During the palmy days of the Puritans considerable attention was given to the subject of the covenants, as their writings evince, particularly the works of Usher, Witsius, Blake, and Boston. But alas, with the exception of a few high Calvinists, their massive volumes fell into general neglect, until a generation arose who had no light thereon. This made it easier for certain men to impose upon them the crudities and vagaries, and make their poor dupes believe a wonderful discovery had been made in the rightly dividing of the word of truth. These men shuffled Scripture until they arranged the passages treating of the covenants to arbitrarily divide time into ;seven dispensations; and partitioned off the Bible accordingly. How dreadfully superficial and faulty their findings are appear from the popular (far too popular to be of much value;Luke 16:15!) Scofield Bible, where no less than eight covenants are noticed, and nothing is said about the everlasting covenant!

If some think we have exaggerated the ignorance which now obtains upon this subject, let them put the following questions to their best-informed Christian friends, and see how many can give satisfactory answers. What did David mean when he said, Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation (1 Sam. 23:5? What is meant by The secret of the Lord is with them that fear him, and he will show them his covenant (Ps. 25:14)? What does the Lord mean when He speaks of those who take hold of my covenant (Isa. 56:6)? What does God intend when He says to the Mediator: As for thee also, by the blood of thy covenant, I have sent forth thy prisoners out of the pit wherein is no water? To what does the apostle refer when he says, That the covenant, that was confirmed before of God is (or Christ (Gal. 3:17)?

Before attempting to furnish any answers to these questions, let us point out the nature of a covenant: in what it consists. ;An absolute agreement between distinct persons, about the order and dispensing of things in their power, unto their mutual concern and advantage; (John Owen). Blackstone, the great commentator upon English law, speaking of the parts of a deed, says, After warrants, usually follow covenants, or conventions, which are clauses of agreement contained in a deed, whereby either party may stipulate for the truth of certain facts, or may bind himself to perform, or give something to the other; (Vol. 2, p. 20). So he includes three things: the parties, the terms, the binding agreement. Reducing it to still simpler language, we may say that a covenant is the entering into of a mutual agreement, a benefit being assured on the fulfillment of certain conditions.

We read of Jonathan and David making a covenant (1 Sam. 18:3) which, in view of 1 Samuel 20:11-17,42, evidently signified that they entered into a solemn compact (ratified by an oath: 1 Sam. 20:17) that in return for Jonathan;s kindness in informing him of his father;s plans;making possible his escape;David, when he ascended the throne, would show mercy to his descendants: (cf. 2 Sam. 9:1). Again, in 1 Chronicles 11:3 we are told that all the elders of Israel (who had previously been opposed to him) came to David and he made a covenant with them, which, in the light of 2 Samuel 5:1-3 evidently means that, on the consideration of his captaining their armies against the common foe, they were willing to submit unto him as their king. Once more, in 2 Chronicles 23:16 we read of Jehoiada the priest making a covenant with the people and the king that they should be the Lord;s people, which, in the light of what immediately follows obviously denotes that he agreed to grant them certain religious privileges in return for their undertaking to destroy the system of Baal worship. A careful consideration of these human examples will enable us to understand better the covenants which God has been pleased to enter into.

Now as we pointed out in previous paragraphs, God;s dealings with men are all based upon His covenant engagements with them—He promising certain blessings upon their fulfillment of certain conditions. This being so, as G. S. Bishop pointed out, ;It is clear that there can be but two and only two covenants possible between God and men;a covenant founded upon what man shall do for salvation, a covenant founded upon what God shall do for him to save him: in other words, a Covenant of Works and a Covenant of Grace; (Grace in Galatians, p. 72). Just as all the divine promises in the Old Testament are summed up in two chief ones;the sending of Christ and the pouring out of the Spirit;so all the divine covenants may be reduced unto two, the other subordinate ones being only confirmations or adumbrations of them, or having to do with their economical administration.

We shall then take up in the chapters which follow, first, the everlasting covenant or covenant of grace, which God made with His elect in the person of their head, and show how that is the sure foundation from which proceed all blessings unto then. Next we shall consider the covenant of works, that compact into which the Creator entered with the whole race in the person of their human and federal head, and show how that had to be broken before the blessings agreed upon in the covenant of grace could be bestowed. Then we shall look briefly at the covenant God made with Noah, and more fully at the one with Abraham, in which the everlasting covenant was shadowed forth. Then we shall ponder the more difficult Sinaitic covenant, viewing it as a confirmation of the covenant of works and also in its peculiar relation to the national polity of Israel. Some consideration will also have to be given to the Davidic covenant, concerning which we feel greatly in need of more light. Finally, we shall point out how the everlasting covenant has been administered under the old and new covenants or economies. May the Holy Spirit graciously preserve us from all serious error, and enable us to write that which shall be to the glory of our covenant God and the blessing of His covenant people.

For more of Pink's work on the subject visit the work online here.
 
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JM

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A good example of 1689 federalism.

Source: The Covenant of Grace, the New Covenant, the Better Covenant | Particular Voices

From Thomas Patient’s “The Doctrine of Baptism…”

Thomas Patient argues that while the substance and administration version of federal theology is untenable, even if you grant it to be true you must prove an external administration instituted in place of the one that was abrogated (which you cannot, he asserts). To see this, the following sentence needs to be teased out a little bit, “And if this were not true, then most falsely do such affirm, the covenant was made with Abrahams seed, therefore the privileges, if Abraham lineally had no covenant made with them, but only an external and outward Administration and Privilege, &c.” What he means is, “If the old and new covenants are not distinct, but rather two administrations of one covenant, then it is false to claim that the covenant was made with Abraham and his seed, and thus its privileges, when in fact Abraham did not have a covenant made with him but only an external administration.”

Transcription:

Object. But some may object and say, But this which you call a Covenant of Works, consisting of Temporal promises, and also Laws and Statutes, you are not to understand that to be a distinct covenant from the Covenant of eternal life, but a form of Administration, that the Covenant of Grace was then administered in. And the carnal children were not then interested in the main privileges of the Covenant, as Adoption and Justification, but the outward promises and privileges only made to their Fathers.

Answ. I know this objection some do bring, which if it be well weighed, is inconsistent with their own arguments.

For if this objection be true, then was there no covenant made to Abrahams seed, but onely an administration of a Covenant. And therefore ill do they affirm, that the covenant was made to them, therefore the administration. But this doubtless is false, and this objection (as I said) is false and groundless, as appears by several express testimonies in Scripture which doth evidently prove two distinct covenants, as for example.

Saith God, in Genesis chap. 17. and verse 7. And I will establish my Covenant between my and thee, and thy seed after thee in their Generations, for an everlasting Covenant, to be a God to thee, and to they seed after thee.

Where observe, that the Lord doth not say, that he will establish an administration of the Covenant, with his seed in their generations, but his covenant, and Abraham and his seed, must keep his covenant; and in verse the 13. this my covenant, shall be in your flesh, for an everlasting Covenant, not this administration of my Covenant, shall be in your flesh; and so in Hebr. the 8. 6,7,8,9, verses, but now hath he obtained a more excellent Ministery, by how much also he is the Mediator of a better Covenant, which is established upon better promises.

And if this were not true, then most falsely do such affirm, the covenant was made with Abrahams seed, therefore the privileges, if Abraham lineally had no covenant made with them, but only an external and outward Administration and Privilege, &c.

Upon that ground there was no national Covenant at all made with Israel, but only an outward administration, and that being granted to be Ceremonial, except you can prove another Ceremonial administration as carnal, as that administration was, now in force, there is not the like ground why carnal and unbelieving children should have any share in it.
 
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JM

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Greg Nichols mp3 lectures on the covenants. Nichols shares some similarities with John Gill, the 1689 with John Owen...excellent fodder for thought and rumination.

Greg Nichols - The Covenants
The New Covenant in Hebrews 8 - YouTube

Love Pink! But prefer the work of work of Coxe.


Was there an old covenant administration of the covenant of grace? | Particular Voices

Fifthly, the last thing I will note is the eternal settlement of the way of salvation according to the character of this covenant which is by faith in Christ. This is a covenant that conveys the grace of life to poor sinners by a free and gracious promise which admits of no other restipulation in order to covenant interest except believing. It is of faith because it is of grace (Romans 4:16) and this way is the only way of life. There is but one covenant of spiritual and eternal blessing in Christ Jesus, founded in the eternal decree and counsel of God’s love and grace, which is now revealed to Abraham. There is but one seed, which is of true believers in union with Christ, promised to him as the heirs of this covenant and the grace given by it. In this manner the way of their justification and acceptance with God is determined; not by a natural descent from Abraham or any external privilege appended to it but by a walking in the footsteps of Abraham's faith (Romans 4:13). He is made the exemplar of justification to all in future ages for whose perpetual instruction this is recorded, that he;believed God and it was accounted to him for righteousness. - Coxe

The law of creation binds when the covenant of creation is broken. Though the transgression of man has forfeited his interest in the one, yet it cannot dissolve the obligation of the other.

the world is set under a general reprieve and the full execution of the deserved curse is delayed until the day of judgement. Until that time children of men are under a dispensation of goodness and sparing mercy. So they are in a remote capacity or possibility of obtaining salvation by Christ where it pleases God to send the gospel, the dispensation of which is made effectual for the salvation of all the elect, who are in this way gathered unto the kingdom of Christ. Coxe, Covenant Theology From Adam to Christ pg. 58
 
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now faith

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I wasn't bad mouthing I can show proof of what I said.
You are correct in that dispensationalism has occured throughout the Bible and is supported both old and new Testament.

It is simple logic : a new dispensation began post flood,post the Law of Moses and again with the birth of Christ.
When Christ ascended on high as well with the completed bible.

MacArthur teaches at some point the Spiritual gifts were done away with.

WHEN???

There is one dispensation left to come,that is when Christ returns.

As far as a dispensation for the Hebrew people,Christ went to the cross one time,and they either accept that or spend eternal separation from God.

For those who follow Joseph Smith I suppose they believe he received a new covenant lost it found it again so they would think another dispensation happened after the completed Word.

Daniel gives us the final dispensation:
Daniel: 12. 1. And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. 2. And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3. And they that be wise shall shine as the brightness of the firmament; and they that turn many to righteousness as the stars for ever and ever.

This is reaffirmed by Paul in 1st Thessalonians.
 
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Pedrito

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In Post #70 It was stated that the answer to the disciples' question in Acts 1:6,7

“6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.”

which took place after the resurrection, and in which Jesus indicated was still future, was fulfilled by Matthew 16:28

“Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.”

(which I had been informed had its fulfilment in Matthew 17:1-5

“1 And after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain apart.
2 And He was transfigured before them. And His face shone as the sun, and His clothing was white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
4 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.”

a vision [of a future time] that took place before Jesus' death.)

The question asked by the disciples was in their minds in line with OT prophecies about the nation of Israel. Jesus knew that.

His response to the question was that it was not appropriate for them to know the answer, not that they misunderstood what was going on.

I offer the thought only because inconsistency worries me. When my feelers detect possible inconsistency, I cannot help but wonder why it was deemed necessary.


By the way, Job8 in Post #73 seems to make a good point.
 
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Pedrito

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In Post #88 twin1954 stated with respect to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15
The context of the passage is talking about preachers. What he builds on the foundation and those who he teaches are his work. His doctrine will stand or be burned. It has nothing to do with differing rewards in Heaven.

I would still like to understand what the rewards mentioned in verses 14 and 15, (apparently dispensed by God, and which some people receive and some don't), are:
14 If anyone's work which he built remains, he shall receive a reward.
15 If anyone's work shall be burned up, he shall suffer loss. But he shall be saved, yet so as by fire.

Especially since those who miss out on a reward are stated to still be saved.
 
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JM

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In Post #70 It was stated that the answer to the disciples' question in Acts 1:6,7

“6 Then, indeed, these coming together, they asked Him, saying, Lord, do You at this time restore the kingdom to Israel?
7 And He said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in His own authority.”

which took place after the resurrection, and in which Jesus indicated was still future, was fulfilled by Matthew 16:28

“Truly I say to you, There are some standing here who shall not taste of death until they see the Son of man coming in His kingdom.”

(which I had been informed had its fulfilment in Matthew 17:1-5

“1 And after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, and brought them up into a high mountain apart.
2 And He was transfigured before them. And His face shone as the sun, and His clothing was white as the light.
3 And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah talking with Him.
4 And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here. If You will, let us make here three tabernacles; one for You, and one for Moses, and one for Elijah.
5 While he yet spoke, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them. And behold a voice out of the cloud which said, This is My beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.”

a vision [of a future time] that took place before Jesus' death.)

The question asked by the disciples was in their minds in line with OT prophecies about the nation of Israel. Jesus knew that.

His response to the question was that it was not appropriate for them to know the answer, not that they misunderstood what was going on.

I offer the thought only because inconsistency worries me. When my feelers detect possible inconsistency, I cannot help but wonder why it was deemed necessary.


By the way, Job8 in Post #73 seems to make a good point.

Good observation. Christ explains further in;

"And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation: Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you." Luke 17

The Kingdom is spiritual in nature.

In Amos 9 we read, "In that day will I raise up the tabernacle of David that is fallen, and close up the breaches thereof; and I will raise up his ruins, and I will build it as in the days of old:"

In Acts 15 this prophecy of the restoration of the tabernacle is applied to the church. When the we see Christ and the Apostles interpreting scripture in this manner we must accept it as authoritative.

In Acts 2 we are told is ruling and reigning now from at the right hand of the Father;

Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day. [30] Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne; [31] He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption. [32] This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. [33] Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear. [34] For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The Lord said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand, [35] Until I make thy foes thy footstool. [36] Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.

The points raised in post 73 are inconsistent with how the old covenant promises were and are being fulfilled in now. The Pharisees rejected the new covenant realization of the old covenant promises just as Dispensationalism does today.

Yours in the Lord,

jm
 
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twin1954

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In Post #88 twin1954 stated with respect to 1 Corinthians 3:11-15


I would still like to understand what the rewards mentioned in verses 14 and 15, (apparently dispensed by God, and which some people receive and some don't), are:


Especially since those who miss out on a reward are stated to still be saved.
Those rewards are the people that God uses him to call, strengthen, comfort and build up in Christ. Paul called the Corinthians, in 1Cor. 9:1-2, that they were his work in the Lord. I believe there is another place, which I can't for the moment recall, where he speaks of believers as being his reward but I will have to find it.
 
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