Did Adam sin?

LoAmmi said:

I'm sorry, but I always laugh at any suggest that Christians don't sin or don't have the desire to sin. Where has this ever been true? Nowhere. Even very, very good Christians will make mistakes and I refuse, absolutely refuse, to believe anybody who tells me they don't sin. Guess what? You're pride might just be a sin if you do.

A sacrifice, contrary to some Christian theology, was not some magic charm where you could go sacrifice a goat or lamb and it was all good. In fact, when one reads Leviticus one might be surprised to note a lack of which sacrifice I'm supposed to bring if I, knowing it is a sin, light a candle on Shabbat. You can read it over and over again and you won't find it. Repentance, like the story of David when he sent the man to die so he could take his wife, was the key to that, not blood on an altar. It's in the text in black and white.

I've seen people try to do the whole Jesus is in the Tanach thing. They all fail miserably with me as I point out the context of the text and how it doesn't fit their view. They take a sentence here, a sentence there, and claim victory.

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You must understand that we are spirit beings. Our flesh is not who we are. I do NOT claim sinless perfection. When I sin, I know what I am doing. Deep inside it grieves me, although my flesh may enjoy it. That is what I mean when I say that we do not desire to sin. Our flesh will always want to sin. It is fallen. But who we really are (spirit, as God created us in HIS image ... and THEN formed a body for us) hates it.

Are you familiar with the life of Jesus?

donfish06 said:

You must understand that we are spirit beings. Our flesh is not who we are. I do NOT claim sinless perfection. When I sin, I know what I am doing. Deep inside it grieves me, although my flesh may enjoy it. That is what I mean when I say that we do not desire to sin. Our flesh will always want to sin. It is fallen. But who we really are (spirit, as God created us in HIS image ... and THEN formed a body for us) hates it.

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I don't like it when I sin either. I have a lot of doubts due to the way I think, and sometimes fail to keep the Torah due to that. I will then feel bad about that failure and turn back to HaShem and try again. I know I will stumble again, but I try.

Are you familiar with the life of Jesus?

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I've read the New Testament several times and I'm pretty familiar with the Gospels. While I understand why it resonates with people, as it shows a deity humbling themselves for their creation, it doesn't resonate with me. I also don't believe it was necessary or lines up with the expectations laid out by the prophets.

LoAmmi said:

I don't like it when I sin either. I have a lot of doubts due to the way I think, and sometimes fail to keep the Torah due to that. I will then feel bad about that failure and turn back to HaShem and try again. I know I will stumble again, but I try.

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Being born again, as time goes on, I sin less and less. God completely took the desire for inappropriate contentography from me, as well as worldy music, movies, and many more. I never even asked him to do it, it just happened after I was saved. Through the years, things that I struggle with just fall away. He has shown me idols in my life and I knew that I should stop engaging in them, but I had no power to stop! I kept going back again and again! But just this past couple of months I have had 2 of the biggest break-throughs. Things that were not "egregious" sins, but I knew that He wanted them out of my heart and I was completely incapable of stopping. It was an addiction. I am now delivered of them and I have no desire to go back.

LoAmmi said:

I've read the New Testament several times and I'm pretty familiar with the Gospels. While I understand why it resonates with people, as it shows a deity humbling themselves for their creation, it doesn't resonate with me. I also don't believe it was necessary or lines up with the expectations laid out by the prophets.

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Messianic Prophecies & Fulfillments: OT Prophecy: NT Fullfillment:
1. Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matt 2:1-6, Luke 2:1-20
2. born of a Virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matt 1:18, Luke 1:26
3. a prophet like Moses Deut 18:15,18,19 John 7:40
4. enter Jerusalem in Triumph Zech 9:9 Matt 21, John 12:12-16
5. Rejected by his own people Isaiah 53:1,3 Matt 26:3,4 , John 12:37-43 , Act 4:1-12
6. betrayed by one of his followers Psalm 118:22, 41:9 Matt 26:14-16, 47-50, Luke 22:19-23
7. tried & condemned Isaiah 53:8 Matt 27:1,2 , Luke 23
8. silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matt 27:12-14
9. struck & spat upon before accusers Isa 50:6 Mark 14:65
10. mocked & insulted Psalm 22:7-8
11. die by crucifixion Psalm 22:14, 16,17
12. suffer w/criminals & pray for them Isa 53:12
13. given vinegar Psalm 69:21
14. lots casted for his garments Psalm 22:18
15. bones not broken Ex 12:46
16. die as a sacrifice Isa 53:5-6, 8, 10-12
17. raised from the dead Psalm 16:10
18. @ God's right hand Psalm 110:1


To save time, knowing that you are well aware of the Gospels, I just included the OT prophecy on the last half since the NT fulfillment is obvious

" Logic dictates that this was Gods plan all along because why would he allow satan to tempt them? Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to be tempted. I believe that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit so mortality would come to this earth as well so we could know good from evil. To experience the opposites of life so we could continue to progress. So to me Adam and Eve did not sin. They did transgress Gods law which had the same punishment."

Going by logic alone leads to the same conclusion that double predestination does. Double predestination is an extreme interpretation of Protestant Calvinism that says that before the foundation of the world, God predestined who was and who was not going to receive eternal life. This ends up making God the author of sin which is not biblical.

The Bible tells us that Satan exists and about his destructive impact on the world and upon humanity as seen in the Garden of Eden. Where Satan and evil came from is not completely explained. Our challenge is to live by faith like Job who did not abandon his faith in God despite the suffering, his so called friends, no explanation for all of the suffering and his wife telling him to curse God and die.

Life is a complicated and complex battlefield in which God is active, Satan who is powerful but not equal with God is active, and human will is active making various good and bad decisions some of which are sins and some of which are mistakes.

The problem with going by logic alone is that it does not fit with the biblical story as a whole in which God holds people responsible for their decisions. Thus, the risky business of free will which means that God did not create Adam and Eve as programmed robots or computers. Given the entrance of sin into the world, our free will is not as strong nor as free as it once was.

Given the original righteousness and perfect state of the image of God that Adam and Eve were created in, there was not anything for them to progress in or for. This is why it is called the fall. We fell from perfection when Adam sinned.

donfish06 said:

Messianic Prophecies & Fulfillments: OT Prophecy: NT Fullfillment:

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1. Messiah was to be born in Bethlehem Micah 5:2 Matt 2:1-6, Luke 2:1-20 -- Lots of people have been born in Bethlehem. Not much of a plus here.
2. born of a Virgin Isaiah 7:14 Matt 1:18, Luke 1:26 -- Absolutely not in context. Read the entire story of Isaiah 7 and you'll see why it cannot be speaking of a person born long after the death of the King.


3. a prophet like Moses Deut 18:15,18,19 John 7:40 -- Deut 18 is discussing the line of Jewish prophets after Moses, starting with Joshua. That's why there's a test for prophets listed after. Regardless, it's an assertion he was a prophet like Moses. You believe it, I don't.


4. enter Jerusalem in Triumph Zech 9:9 Matt 21, John 12:12-16 -- Lots of people rode into Jerusalem on a donkey.


5. Rejected by his own people Isaiah 53:1,3 Matt 26:3,4 , John 12:37-43 , Act 4:1-12 -- Isaiah 53 speaks of Israel, as Isaiah identifies the servant as Israel no less than four times leading up to Isaiah 53. Regardless, these are the kings of the world speaking about how they rejected the Jewish people.

6. betrayed by one of his followers Psalm 118:22, 41:9 Matt 26:14-16, 47-50, Luke 22:19-23 -- No indication in the text this is a prophecy.

7. tried & condemned Isaiah 53:8 Matt 27:1,2 , Luke 23
8. silent before his accusers Isaiah 53:7 Matt 27:12-14 -- See Isaiah 53 above.

9. struck & spat upon before accusers Isa 50:6 Mark 14:65 -- That's Isaiah speaking. Nothing in the text to indicate this is a prophecy.

10. mocked & insulted Psalm 22:7-8 -- No indication this is a prophecy. No indication this is about the Messiah. The text would indicate it is about David.

11. die by crucifixion Psalm 22:14, 16,17 -- Nothing to indicate this is a prophecy. Nothing to indicate this is the Messiah. Jewish text also believe that it should be "like a lion" there, not pierced. Still, text indicates it's about David.

12. suffer w/criminals & pray for them Isa 53:12 -- See Isaiah 53 above.

13. given vinegar Psalm 69:21 -- Nothing to indicate it is a prophecy. Nothing to indicate this is about the Messiah.

14. lots casted for his garments Psalm 22:18 -- Nothing to indicate it is a prophecy. Nothing to indicate this is about the Messiah.

15. bones not broken Ex 12:46 -- This is in reference to the lamb that would be cooked inside the person's house and eaten whole. Jesus was not eaten whole, Jesus was not in a house. It is not about the Messiah.

16. die as a sacrifice Isa 53:5-6, 8, 10-12 -- See Isaiah 53 above.

17. raised from the dead Psalm 16:10 -- Nothing to indicate it is a prophecy. Nothing to indicate this is about the Messiah.

18. @ God's right hand Psalm 110:1 -- How can I confirm that this is the case currently? And, lest I forget.. Nothing to indicate this is about the Messiah.


What I see missing from the list is any indication of the things that only one person can ever have happen while they are King of Israel:

World Peace
Universal Knowledge of HaShem
The Temple built as laid out in Ezekiel
The return of the Exiles to Israel and all Jews living in Israel

Robban said:

Example,
"Now let us make man in our image."

Who is the "our?"

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That one is easy. It is a grammatical form known as the Royal We or Majestic Plural. God refers to Himself constantly in the Qur'an that way. We see it in the Baha'i Writings as well.

BukiRob said:

There is a lie that pre flood man was unsophisticated and basically 'cave man' like.. that is a lie.... Pre Flood man had a civilization that was greater than our current civilization. They had advanced knowledge in ALL of the sciences. They knew all about DNA and the Genome and they manipulated it and THAT was why the flood occurred. Every imagination of man was continually evil. Man perverted creation and began to create beings that G-d never wanted, intended or desired.

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Evidence?

Noah found favor in G-d's eyes and was untainted by this DNA manipulation as was his wife and so his 3 sons were also untainted....

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Evidence?

we are already cross breeding animals that in nature would never do so.....

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We've been doing that for quite some time. Ever hear of mules?

consider the Liger. Not only is it a cross between a lion and a tiger they crossed both animals ( I believe it was the dna of a male lion and a femal tiger) that suppressed the gene that inhibits growth... this Liger is over 900 lbs....

As in the days of Noah[/QUOTE]

TKICBS said:

The daughters got Lot drunk and took advantage of him while he was incoherent. It was the daughter's sin, not Lot's.

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But officer, it wasn't my fault. I was drunk.

TKICBS said:

It is far more likely that his lust to please Eve blinded him from even thinking of the consequences. Satan blinds the eyes of the disobedient.

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St. Augustine believed there was no lust before the Fall. Adam and Eve might have had sex but without lust. (Not much fun in that.) The reason Adam notices his nakedness after the Fall, according to Augustine is that when he looked at Eve suddenly he couldn't control himself and needed to cover up.

smaneck said:

I was even meaner than your daughter. For my father's 50th birthday I took him to see Harry Belafonte who was nearly five years senior to my dad. After watching Belafonte's gorgeous body prancing around the stage, I asked me my father "why don't you look like that?"

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LOL. Now that's what I call mean!

God saw everything he had made and, look! it was very good.” (Ge 1:31) Indeed, from the very beginning Adam was perfect in every respect. He was equipped with the power of speech and with a highly developed vocabulary. He was able to give meaningful names to the living creatures all around him. He was capable of carrying on a two-way conversation with his God and with his wife.

For all these reasons and many more, Adam was under obligation to love, worship, and strictly obey his Grand Creator. More than that, the Universal Lawgiver spelled out for him the simple law of obedience and fully informed him of the just and reasonable penalty for disobedience: “As for the tree of the knowledge of good and bad you must not eat from it, for in the day you eat from it you will positively die.” (Ge 2:16, 17; 3:2, 3) Notwithstanding this explicit law carrying a severe penalty for disobedience, he did disobey.

Results of Sin. Eve was thoroughly deceived by Satan the Devil, but “Adam was not deceived,” says the apostle Paul. (1Ti 2:14) With full knowledge Adam willfully and deliberately chose to disobey and then as a criminal he tried to hide. When brought to trial, instead of showing sorrow or regret or asking for forgiveness, Adam attempted to justify himself and pass the responsibility off on others, even blaming Jehovah for his own willful sin. “The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me fruit from the tree and so I ate.” (Ge 3:7-12) So Adam was cast out of Eden into an unsubdued earth that was cursed to produce thorns and thistles, there to sweat out an existence, harvesting the bitter fruits of his sin. Outside the garden, awaiting death, Adam fathered sons and daughters, the names of only three being preserved—Cain, Abel, and Seth. To all of his children Adam passed on hereditary sin and death, since he himself was sinful.—Ge 3:23; 4:1, 2, 25.

This was the tragic start Adam gave the human race. Paradise, happiness, and everlasting life were forfeited, and in their place sin, suffering, and death were acquired through disobedience. “Through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned.” “Death ruled as king from Adam down.” (Ro 5:12, 14) But Jehovah in his wisdom and love provided a “second man,” “the last Adam,” who is the Lord Jesus Christ. By means of this obedient “Son of God” the way was opened up whereby descendants of the disobedient “first man Adam” could regain Paradise and everlasting life, the church or congregation of Christ even gaining heavenly life. “For just as in Adam all are dying, so also in the Christ all will be made alive.”—Joh 3:16, 18; Ro 6:23; 1Co 15:22, 45, 47.

After sinner Adam’s expulsion from Eden he lived to see the murder of his own son, banishment of his killer-son, abuse of the marriage arrangement, and profanation of Jehovah’s sacred name. He witnessed the building of a city, the development of musical instruments, and the forging of tools out of iron and copper. He watched and was condemned by the example of Enoch, “the seventh one in line from Adam,” one who “kept walking with the true God.” He even lived to see Noah’s father Lamech of the ninth generation. Finally, after 930 years, most of which was spent in the slow process of dying, Adam returned to the ground from which he was taken, in the year 3096 B.C.E., just as Jehovah had said.—Ge 4:8-26; 5:5-24; Jude 14

oi_antz said:

Rubbish.

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I would counter your polite response, but I have forgotten what the question was.

If you are asserting that toddlers can sin, then I am afraid you are mistaken. Very.

Catherineanne said:

I would counter your polite response, but I have forgotten what the question was.

If you are asserting that toddlers can sin, then I am afraid you are mistaken. Very.

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Good morning Catherineanne,

Just in case I've caused offence: I was only teasing yesterday when I said that you 'are an Anglican after all!'

Have a good day.

fatboys said:

im asking this question because there are many who believe that Adam is a dirty dog. Here is my reasoning to why they are not and were following the plan of God. Adam and Eve were placed in the garden of Eden. They were innocent of knowledge of good and evil. Satan was allowed to tempt them and Eve partook of the fruit and gave it to Adam. I believe that Adam and Eve disobeyed Gods law to not eat the fruit. God had told them not to eat of the fruit or they would die. Since there had not yet had death enter into the garden did they understand what the consequences of their choice? Since they did not know good and evil, could Adam and Eve understood what the law was and the consequences? They did disobey and as a result death came into the world. Sin also came into the world because of imperfection. I believe that to justice it does not matter if someone disobeys having full knowledge and understanding of the law broken or if someone is innocent of the law. It is still disobedience and there are consequences that must come as a result. The punishment is the same. Logic dictates that this was Gods plan all along because why would he allow satan to tempt them? Why would God place the tree of knowledge of good and evil for them to be tempted. I believe that God wanted Adam to eat the fruit so mortality would come to this earth as well so we could know good from evil. To experience the opposites of life so we could continue to progress. So to me Adam and Eve did not sin. They did transgress Gods law which had the same punishment.

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The Adam and Eve story isn't even true. It is a plagiarized version of the Sumerian text. Enlil and Enki are brothers. Enki takes on the role of the serpent and Enlil was the dictator God.

http://www.mega.nu/ampp/eden/roots.html

I mean, can one really believe in a talking serpent and that an apple can make one see the difference between good and evil? How can God WALK through the garden? He doesn't have a body. How did He talk to Adam and Eve? In the Sumerian version, Enlil is a physical god.

It's take to stop believing in things that just aren't true.

Catherineanne said:

I would counter your polite response, but I have forgotten what the question was.

If you are asserting that toddlers can sin, then I am afraid you are mistaken. Very.

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Nope. Just because someone does not know they are sinning, does not mean they are not sinning. Eg, a toddler who steals a toy might not know it is wrong to steal a toy. Yet, it is sin. They did not sin willingly though, as consistent with John 15:22. However, this leads us to the conclusion that we do sin without knowing that we are sinning, and that we cannot be held accountable for that sin as though we had sinned deliberately. If you think I am wrong, please go ahead and explain why you think that toddlers never sin. I am sue they do. If someone demands of another person, that is sin. Toddlers are demanding. Even babies are demanding. Though, they do not know that they sin, so they deserve some lenience compared to who is culpable.

Claire Evans said:

It's take to stop believing in things that just aren't true.

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Good morning,

The Bible uses myth and legend to convey sacred truths. Why would this be a problem? We are all familiar with the story of the boy who cried ‘Wolf’ just once too often; and because folk no longer believed him he got munched.

We tell our kids that the moral of this tale is: ‘Don’t tell lies’. (Quark, the Ferengi in Star Trek Deep Space Nine, reckons that the true moral of this tale is: ‘Don’t tell the same lie twice!).

smaneck said:

Which rumor? That Thomas wrote the Gospel of Thomas or your own suggestion that the other gospels might have been written by disciples.

I doubt if Thomas wrote the Gospel bearing his name but then I have the same doubts about Matthew and John. All three are fairly old gospels, however.

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If you have doubts about all the scripture produced by the saints, then what is the basis of your faith? It is not my suggestion that saint John produced The Apocryphon of John, He said so in the document itself. If I believe Jesus then The Spirit of Truth taught the disciples what we need to know and this information is missing from the bible. If it is not in the gnostic gospels, then where is it? The kingdom of God is at hand, only the saints produced scripture.

TKICBS said:

The daughters got Lot drunk and took advantage of him while he was incoherent. It was the daughter's sin, not Lot's. His righteousness should remain intact though he would have felt deep conviction for the action. And Lot looked forward for the cross and the redeemer which is what is righteous in the old testament. We look back at the cross and find our righteousness in Christ Jesus.

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Right, make Lot an innocent victim of incestuous rape, nice try. So when did you become an expert at rationalizing away sin?

single eye said:

If you have doubts about all the scripture produced by the saints, then what is the basis of your faith? It is not my suggestion that saint John produced The Apocryphon of John, He said so in the document itself. If I believe Jesus then The Spirit of Truth taught the disciples what we need to know and this information is missing from the bible. If it is not in the gnostic gospels, then where is it? The kingdom of God is at hand, only the saints produced scripture.

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Then we must question why the Church rejected so much of this scripture; and why it does so to this day.

I was a Christian for just over sixty years. In all this time I never heard any priest or minister preach a sermon based on the Gospels of Mary, Thomas; Philip; or Judas; nor on the Gospel of Truth. Nor did I come across any pastoral letter based on the same.

How would you explain this neglect of scripture?