Why Young Earthers should be more honest

Arikay

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And this is also about science.

So im studing the bible.

What science books or information are you studing?
How many are from christian sources?

How many books on other, non christian religions do you have?

Today at 01:43 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #74 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=679967#post679967)

It is also a forum about creation. People like to pigon hole various creation theorys. Set 'em up and knock them down. But they put very little effort into learning anything about the Creator.

If we had a neat and tidy creation theory with all of our little wooden indians lined up. Would that really help you to come to know the Creator better?
 
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Eddie

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Today at 04:50 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #77

My point exactly, evolution denys that man is even civilized.

Out of pure curiosity, can you cite any reference to this? 



Untell Darwin created a artifical division, there was no division between science and theology. Daniel and Moses were highly educated in science in their day. Moses by Egypt, and Daniel by Babylon.

Science and theology, by definition, are mutually exclusive.  I would also like to know your sources for your claims about Moses and Daniel.



There is no reason for me to waste my time reading Darwing's junk. Even if it were true, there is very little of any real value or application in it. Many would say that it has no value and no practical application at all.

This is breathtaking in it's arrogance and ignorance.  Have you ever been innoculated?  Are you really saying that genetics, biology, virology, botany, animal husbandry, agricultural science, zoology have no value and no practicle application at all?  Would you pick a couple of these and explain your position?

 

[/QUOTE]
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 05:18 PM Eddie said this in Post #82
This is breathtaking in it's arrogance and ignorance.  Have you ever been innoculated?  Are you really saying that genetics, biology, virology, botany, animal husbandry, agricultural science, zoology have no value and no practicle application at all?  Would you pick a couple of these and explain your position? 

I guess your new here. If you make a claim, then usually they require you to present evidence. So where is your evidence that Dawin had anything to do with any of this stuff. For example genetics came 50 years later. Darwin had nothing to do with that at all. Oh, they may try to use some of darwins theorys as a means to explain their results, but that is just creative writing. The only thing that comes out of that is entertainment.

Darwin had absolutely nothing to do with animal husbandry, I can show you examples of that thousands of years before Darwin was even born. At least 3000 years before he was born. Even before Plato and Aristotle was born. Same thing with agriculture. The Amish were adapting plants to America and they never read Darwin, so there was no contrabution there either.

People were getting along just fine before Darwin came along. I have heard it said that the only thing in Darwins writting that has not been falsified is stuff he got from others anyways.

Oh, and the rules say no personal attacks on forum members.




 
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 05:11 PM Arikay said this in Post #81
What science books or information are you studing?
How many are from christian sources?

Well, I have been doing a little bit of a study on Gerald Schroeder writtings. Also, we are taught directly from God, so we do not always need to read what man has to say about stuff. Sometimes man will get the waters more muddy that he will do anything to make things more clear.
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 04:36 PM gentu said this in Post #71
The early Earth's atmospheric composition is not completely understood. It's composition was either one of two possible scenarios:

1. A Reducing Atmosphere -  In this scenario, the primitive atmosphere would have consisted of water vapor, hydrogen, nitrogen, methane, ammonia, and trace amounts of carbon dioxide and carbon monoxide.

This seems to line up with the Bible where we are told:

Genesis 1:6-8
    And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.




 
 
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Eddie

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Hardly attacks, simply observations, or rather hypotheses.  You made a very sweeping claim I would greatly appreciate seeing your evidence.  Saying that lack of a formulated theory and research in evolutionary processes did not prevent man from hybridizing cattle is fine and good.  I am more curious as to your rejection of the impact of evolutionary biology on the things that I outlined.  You made the claim, I was simply aghast.  Just show your reasoning and evidence, per the rules naturally.

 

 

Today at 10:37 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #83

I guess your new here. If you make a claim, then usually they require you to present evidence. So where is your evidence that Dawin had anything to do with any of this stuff. For example genetics came 50 years later. Darwin had nothing to do with that at all. Oh, they may try to use some of darwins theorys as a means to explain their results, but that is just creative writing. The only thing that comes out of that is entertainment.

Darwin had absolutely nothing to do with animal husbandry, I can show you examples of that thousands of years before Darwin was even born. At least 3000 years before he was born. Even before Plato and Aristotle was born. Same thing with agriculture. The Amish were adapting plants to America and they never read Darwin, so there was no contrabution there either.

People were getting along just fine before Darwin came along. I have heard it said that the only thing in Darwins writting that has not been falsified is stuff he got from others anyways.

Oh, and the rules say no personal attacks on forum members.




 
 
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Arikay

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IC. so you criticize us non believers for not studying your point of view, but you yourself dont feel like you need to study our point of view? So why do you feel you are better that you dont need to study up, but we do. Isnt that a "holyier than thou" attitude?

Today at 07:42 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #84 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680730#post680730)

Well, I have been doing a little bit of a study on Gerald Schroeder writtings. Also, we are taught directly from God, so we do not always need to read what man has to say about stuff. Sometimes man will get the waters more muddy that he will do anything to make things more clear.
 
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Today at 02:37 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #83



Oh, and the rules say no personal attacks on forum members. 

 

Ah John, we're always prepared to make an exception in your case.  ;)  (Joking, mate.)
 
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tof

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Today at 04:53 AM JohnR7 said this in Post #85 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=680751#post680751)

This seems to line up with the Bible where we are told:

Genesis 1:6-8
    And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters. [7] And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so. [8] And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.




 


But in Genesis God puts the stars in the firmament, so this firmament is not the atmosphere.

Genesis 1:14-19
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: [he made] the stars also.
17 And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth,
18 And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that [it was] good.
19 And the evening and the morning were the fourth day.
 
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ikester7579

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24th February 2003 at 09:41 PM gentu said this in Post #1

I am in no way anti-creationist, anti-religion, anti-Christian, or anti-bible. I can accept and understand how many people use Christianity, which is based on the Bible, as a source of their religious inspiration.

That being said, those who home in on ambiguous Old Testament passages and construe them as proof that the universe is a handful of years old are not being honest. They are not being honest intellectually, socially, scientifically, or spiritually. They are likely not dishonest intentionally or with malice, but with confusion and misunderstanding. However, they are still doing a disservice to many.

Intellectually, they are being dishonest because they refuse to learn lessons from common knowledge of Galileo's experience with the Roman Catholic Church. The church of that time put forth a false argument that had nothing to do with spirituality. Did the fact that the earth revolved around the sun cause spirituality to topple and disappear? No. It had no affect on spirituality whatsoever, it is simply the nature of Earth.

Socially, they are dishonest because they spread confusion and cause havoc with school boards. Disagreement with common accepted principles may be a reason to homeschool your child, but it is dishonest to deny a complete education to other children.

Scientifically, they are being dishonest because they misconstrue basic facts due to a restricted paradigm of thinking. Science - honest science - involves the testing of ideas on their own merit, and nothing else. It is scientifically dishonest to construe facts to fit an outside paradigm. Obviously there are gray areas where things may be misconstrued at a certain scale, but the systematic denial of observations amounts to nothing more than scientific dishonesty.

Consider two philosophers living on a coastline who are debating the shape of the earth. One has a hypothesis that the earth is flat, the other believes it is mostly spherical. The latter challenges his companion to observe sailing vessels on a bright, clear day as they travel away from the coast and into deeper waters. "Look carefully at how the bottom of the boats seems to disappear below the horizon as the boat sails very far away," he says. "The sail is the last part that can be seen before the boat is too far away to make out. This is because the curvature of the spherical earth begins to hide the boat from the bottom up as it moves far enough away." This explanation makes sense, and can be verified by anyone on a clear day. The best conclusion would be that, indeed, the earth has curvature and is likely some spherical shape, as water surfaces can only be curved on a curved earth.

However, the companion to this philosopher, in a systematic denial of concepts as thorough as any who purport a young earth, scoffs at this obvious explanation. "That doesn't prove anything about the curvature of the earth. It only looks like the earth is curved, but really, the diffraction of light off of the water's surface makes the boat look like it's disappearing! This effect makes the boat look shorter when it is farther away, so that refutes your claim!" While this could be a legitimate claim, it is wrong. If the person did experiments on this effect, he would discover that it doesn't exist, and therefore it was dishonestly conjured up. What many young-earth proponents don't realize is that they are doing the exact same thing in their contradictions of geology, astronomy, and other sciences.

Spiritually, they are dishonest because the point of spirituality is to become at peace with a purpose in life. Honest spirituality involves a good amount of love for others and self and awe in the complexity of every piece of the universe. Dishonest spirituality is bickering over ancient documents which have no spiritual weight. Does the age of your world really affect your ability to love a God and those you share your world with?

Religion has given us many beautiful inspirations. What does confusion and dishonesty inspire?

And if the age of the earth was provable beyond a shadow of a doubt. The yec would not have a leg to stand on right? Says something about what you believe.

 

And calling yec believers liars causes the same problems your complaining about. I have the right to believe what I believe. Are you saying that I don't?

I do not take kindly to being called a liar who spreads dishonesty because I believe something different from you.

 
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Arikay

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You can believe whatever you want. However, by saying that something you know isnt true (even if you decide not to believe the facts), is true, is a lie. Being dishonest and passing your beliefs off as fact even though it has been shown to you to be wrong is a lie and very unchrist like.

Im not saying you do that. But there are quite a few creationist websites that do.

Im sure if I went around calling jesus a murdering rapist, people would get mad at me and tell me to stop spreading lies, even if thats what I believe. :) (I dont believe that by the way :) )



Today at 11:39 PM ikester7579 said this in Post #92 (http://www.christianforums.com/showthread.php?postid=681133#post681133)

And if the age of the earth was provable beyond a shadow of a doubt. The yec would not have a leg to stand on right? Says something about what you believe.

 

And calling yec believers liars causes the same problems your complaining about. I have the right to believe what I believe. Are you saying that I don't?

I do not take kindly to being called a liar who spreads dishonesty because I believe something different from you.

 
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ikester7579

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Today at 02:59 AM Arikay said this in Post #93

You can believe whatever you want. However, by saying that something you know isnt true (even if you decide not to believe the facts), is true, is a lie. Being dishonest and passing your beliefs off as fact even though it has been shown to you to be wrong is a lie and very unchrist like.

Im not saying you do that. But there are quite a few creationist websites that do.

Im sure if I went around calling jesus a murdering rapist, people would get mad at me and tell me to stop spreading lies, even if thats what I believe. :) (I dont believe that by the way :) )

Because of the attempt to insite flaming with the words you are using. Calling me a liar and spreading lies I see no recourse but to report this. Your hate for me and what I believe is more apparent with each post. Totaly demeaning my beliefs with your words and using the one(Jesus) I look up to as your demeaning example to try and make me mad. I decided when I left here a week ago that if I came back I would not tolerate this. But now you push even harder with your hatred. You make fun of every person's beliefs that comes in here. When they don't see things the way you do. I find myself lowering myself to your level just to answer your questions. Questions that you use to mock those who believe in God and his word. Questions that you really don't want answers to. Coming to this forum I have really learned what hatred is. What you think is funny I take serously.
 
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Arikay

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Add on: My example was harsh, but thats because it puts things in a different light. If I said those things, it wouldnt be tolerated and it would be considered a lie and a sin. However god sees all sins as the same, so in essence, someone who lies about facts is sinning just as much as me.
 
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JohnR7

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Today at 01:43 AM Cantuar said this in Post #91

Is this a trick question?

What about the birthday party or the age of the earth? The question has already been answered about the age of the earth in comparison to the age of the universe. As far as the birthday party, it was just on my mind. Because I wanted to go to a birthday party for a women in our church that just turned 101, but I had to take my wife to work instead.
 
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Today at 09:09 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #97

What about the birthday party or the age of the earth? The question has already been answered about the age of the earth in comparison to the age of the universe. As far as the birthday party, it was just on my mind. Because I wanted to go to a birthday party for a women in our church that just turned 101, but I had to take my wife to work instead.

Hey John - you could have come to mine were you a bit more convenient geography-wise. :)  I'm not 101,.  Getting closer, though!
 
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JohnR7

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Yesterday at 11:01 PM Arikay said this in Post #87 IC. so you criticize us non believers for not studying your point of view, but you yourself dont feel like you need to study our point of view? So why do you feel you are better that you dont need to study up, but we do. Isnt that a "holyier than thou" attitude?

I just figured I would join your club. Sense "non believers" do not want to take the time or trouble to study our point of view, then I am not going to take the time or trouble to study your point of view.

It just seems like when "non believers" look at the evidence we provide, they do not give it an honest evaluation. They only look at it long enough to fabricate some sort of error, so they can falsify it in their mind.

They do this in a way so that there is not even any discussion on it, that would make of no effect the very reason for this mesage board. Their evaluation is often not honest, just slash and burn.
 
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Today at 09:20 PM JohnR7 said this in Post #99

I just figured I would join your club. Sense "non believers" do not want to take the time or trouble to study our point of view, then I am not going to take the time or trouble to study your point of view.

It just seems like when "non believers" look at the evidence we provide, they do not give it an honest evaluation. They only look at it long enough to fabricate some sort of error, so they can falsify it in their mind.

They do this in a way so that there is not even any discussion on it, that would make of no effect the very reason for this mesage board. Their evaluation is often not honest, just slash and burn.

Personally speaking, John, I think that this is a bit unfair.  Many non-believers are also ex-believers, so they do understand your point of view.

I hasten to add that, while I am an ex-believer, I never shared your beliefs about the age of the earth, so I am not one who can see precisely where you're coming from.  There are non-literalist Christians, agnostics and atheists who once were Biblical-literalist, so from that perspective I think your comment is a little wide of the mark.
 
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