Future reinstitution of Temple worship, with animal sacrifices

Interplanner said:

Fair enough, Doug. What do you think of the dripping excitement that this is happening, where there should be anguish?

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The Jews have the Tanach, the old testament, which says not to look forward to the Day of the Lord, it is a day of darkness, a day of dispair (paraphrased). Christians have the new testament, which Jesus says when you (Christians) see those things begin to happen, look up, for your redemption draws near(paraphrased).

That's not the only thing the OT says, and anyway, the apostles used things like that to be true in Christ. And it was: in the Gospel the wrath of God is revealed. In the Gospel God was seen to be both just and justifier of the person who has faith in Jesus.

How did we get to the place where we have to remind each other that the apostle's meaning is first of all what is true in Christ, which is probably the most common and vital expression in the NT?

Interplanner said:

That's not the only thing the OT says, and anyway, the apostles used things like that to be true in Christ. And it was: in the Gospel the wrath of God is revealed. In the Gospel God was seen to be both just and justifier of the person who has faith in Jesus.

How did we get to the place where we have to remind each other that the apostle's meaning is first of all what is true in Christ, which is probably the most common and vital expression in the NT?

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You can't see the difference between what the Jews have in the Tanach of the Day of the Lord something not to be looking forward to. And what Christians are told which the rebuilding of the temple would be when we see those things start to happen, look up for our redemption draws near ?

It means the Jews are going to be going through the time of Jacob's troubles. But Christians them who are patient in the promises of the Lord are not going to be through it and instead will be physically redeemed, translated into bodies of eternal life.

Douggg said:

You can't see the difference between what the Jews have in the Tanach of the Day of the Lord something not to be looking forward to. And what Christians are told which the rebuilding of the temple would be when we see those things start to happen, look up for our redemption draws near ?

It means the Jews are going to be going through the time of Jacob's troubles. But Christians them who are patient in the promises of the Lord are not going to be through it and instead will be physically redeemed, translated into bodies of eternal life.

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Are you telling us you have changed your rapture timing viewpoint from "anytime" to pretrib?

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Douggg said:

The Jews have the Tanach, the old testament, which says not to look forward to the Day of the Lord, it is a day of darkness, a day of dispair (paraphrased). Christians have the new testament, which Jesus says when you (Christians) see those things begin to happen, look up, for your redemption draws near(paraphrased).

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Is that Near in God's view or Near in Mans View?

And then you implied that "Those Things" includes the rebuilding of the Jewish Temple...
I know you were paraphrasing, but where does Jesus teach that "those things" included the rebuilding of the temple?

I couldn't find that anywhere in the context surrounding Luke 21:28, which is what I believe you were paraphrasing:
28 Now when these things begin to happen, look up and lift up your heads, because your redemption draws near.

Now I went backwards from that verse through the chapter and found nothing about seeing a rebuilding of the temple that could be included in Jesus proclamation...there is much about the destruction of the then standing temple as one of "those things" that Jesus said when you see start to happen, Look up for it draws near, however.

Could you elaborate on how you conclude the 21st century rebuilding of the temple is in view in Luke 21, and whether He is using "Draws Near" in Gods view or in Mans?

BABerean2 said:

Are you telling us you have changed your rapture timing viewpoint from "anytime" to pretrib?

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No. What I am saying to you is that for Christians the approaching of the end times events is in anticipation of the rapture; which is why that it is a blessing to read Revelation.

Douggg said:

No. What I am saying to you is that for Christians the approaching of the end times events is in anticipation of the rapture; which is why that it is a blessing to read Revelation.

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How can you say you hold to "anytime" rapture timing and also say Christians will not go through any of the tribulation?
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BABerean2 said:

How can you say you hold to "anytime" rapture timing and also say Christians will not go through any of the tribulation?
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I am anytime rapture view because I don't know when the rapture is going to take place as far being pre-70th week or after the 70th week begins. I do know of the promise in Luke 21:34-36 and in Revelation to the church of Philadelphia.

You are going to have to reconcile your own rapture view. I just know what mine is.

BABerean2 said:

Christ has broken down the middle wall of separation between all peoples.

There is now no difference between an atheist descendant of Jacob in the modern nation of Israel and a naked native living in the Amazon Rain forest.
They both need Jesus in the same way and in the same time period.

There is only One Gospel.

There is One Flock and One Shepherd.

All of the promises come through the One seed, not the many seeds.


Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.



Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.


Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.


Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

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So you are a believer in Christ and you are not a male, not a female, not a Gentile, not a Jew, not a slave, not a freeman?
Did you lose gender parts in your flesh, and are you not married, then, and if you are, does your spouse agree that you have no gender?
did you lose tribal ethnicity in your flesh, and tell me how that is all working out for you?
Do you work for a boss and pay the government their huge cut of your wages -thereby making you a modern day slave -to the system

OR are you not interpreting that passage in its context?
Paul said He was in Christ and he was: a male; a Jew of Jews, of the tribe of Benjamin; a freeman...among other things he said.

yeshuasavedme said:

So you are a believer in Christ and you are not a male, not a female, not a Gentile, not a Jew, not a slave, not a freeman?
Did you lose gender parts in your flesh, and are you not married, then, and if you are, does your spouse agree that you have no gender?
did you lose tribal ethnicity in your flesh, and tell me how that is all working out for you?
Do you work for a boss and pay the government their huge cut of your wages -thereby making you a modern day slave -to the system

OR are you not interpreting that passage in its context?
Paul said He was in Christ and he was: a male; a Jew of Jews, of the tribe of Benjamin; a freeman...among other things he said.

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Paul said most of those things you just quoted to show they meant nothing in that no type of salvation comes from being any of those things, except the first one.
The only thing that Paul valued was being in-Christ.

You are attempting to make Paul out to be a schizophrenic, by claiming he gave opposing views in different passages of scripture.
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Douggg said:

I am anytime rapture view because I don't know when the rapture is going to take place as far being pre-70th week or after the 70th week begins. I do know of the promise in Luke 21:34-36 and in Revelation to the church of Philadelphia.

You are going to have to reconcile your own rapture view. I just know what mine is.

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I can tell you it will definitely be after the 70th week, since the 70th week ended 490 years after the angel Gabriel said the prophecy started.


Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.


Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you are in-Christ, you are ready to stand before Christ.
Christ took your wrath at the Cross. This has made you worthy to escape the wrath of God, which will be poured out on the ungodly at Christ's Second Coming, revealed in 2nd Thess. chapter 1 and 2nd Peter 3:10.


Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;


Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I did not realize the Church of Philadelphia was still in existence today.
Can you explain Rev. 3:9?

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BABerean2 said:

Paul said most of those things you just quoted to show they meant nothing in that no type of salvation comes from being any of those things, except the first one.
The only thing that Paul valued was being in-Christ.

You are attempting to make Paul out to be a schizophrenic, by claiming he gave opposing views in different passages of scripture.
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Au contraire! Paul said that to show that there is one new man of the One Living Spirit and all born again souls are equally one in that Living Spirit, with Christ as the Firstborn, but no one loses identity of their gender or tribal ethnicity, or of their position in this life. Paul stated his maleness, Jewishness, and was a free citizen, not a slave.
That is the same in Adam: there is one Adam spirit and all in Adam are one spirit, but made male and female [Genesis 5:2, Malachi 3:15], and are all born of the tribes descended from Noah through his three sons, as Jews or Gentiles.
If you are in Christ, the Living Spirit, you are still male and female, Jew or Gentile, and slave man or free, in the flesh of your physical being.
Men from every tribe and tongue will be in heaven, and that identity of the soul we are born in, as male and female, Jew or Gentile, does not stop when we die....I will always be myself, but my days of bearing children are over, and when I die, I will only be the spiritual bride of Christ, as my husband will also be, and so we both will be identified as the "wife" of the Firstborn Son of God...

So in context, Paul spoke of the new birth, and Jews and Gentiles can be Jews and Gentiles, and be born again in spirit....and the Firstborn in the One New Man is our Everlasting Father -a male term

BABerean2 said:

I did not realize the Church of Philadelphia was still in existence today.
Can you explain Rev. 3:9?]

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I can. It is the Church of brotherly Love -do you belong to it?

BABerean2 said:

I can tell you it will definitely be after the 70th week, since the 70th week ended 490 years after the angel Gabriel said the prophecy started.

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Pre the commemorative reading required by Deuteronomy 31:10-13, to the nation of Israel, in the schmita year.

Luk 21:34 And take heed to yourselves, lest at any time your hearts be overcharged with surfeiting, and drunkenness, and cares of this life, and so that day come upon you unawares.


Luk 21:35 For as a snare shall it come on all them that dwell on the face of the whole earth.


Luk 21:36 Watch ye therefore, and pray always, that ye may be accounted worthy to escape all these things that shall come to pass, and to stand before the Son of man.

If you are in-Christ, you are ready to stand before Christ.
Christ took your wrath at the Cross. This has made you worthy to escape the wrath of God, which will be poured out on the ungodly at Christ's Second Coming, revealed in 2nd Thess. chapter 1 and 2nd Peter 3:10.

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If that is what you believe.

Rev 3:7 And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write; These things saith he that is holy, he that is true, he that hath the key of David, he that openeth, and no man shutteth; and shutteth, and no man openeth;

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Rev 3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.


Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.


Rev 3:10 Because thou hast kept the word of my patience, I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth.

I did not realize the Church of Philadelphia was still in existence today.
Can you explain Rev. 3:9?

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Could apply to any number of people.... like the Hebrew Israelites for example. You probably are not familiar with them. Take a visit to YouTube.

Douggg said:

Could apply to any number of people....

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Except of course the actual 1st century people of the Literal 1st century Church at Philadelphia to whom the letter was directly addressed to? It couldn't apply to them at all, right?

yeshuasavedme said:

So in context, Paul spoke of the new birth, and Jews and Gentiles can be Jews and Gentiles, and be born again in spirit....and the Firstborn in the One New Man is our Everlasting Father -a male term

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Then the Apostle Paul must have been a little confused in the verses below, where he makes it clear that being a Jew is not about one's bloodline.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:


Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

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yeshuasavedme said:

I can. It is the Church of brotherly Love -do you belong to it?

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I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, which is made up of all those who have been redeemed by the Blood of the Son of God.

I am not a member of the local church body of Asia Minor which is being addressed in chapter 3 of the Book of Revelation.
Nor am I a member of any local church body in the modern United States city of Philadelphia.
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Douggg said:

Pre the commemorative reading required by Deuteronomy 31:10-13, to the nation of Israel, in the schmita year.


If that is what you believe.


Could apply to any number of people.... like the Hebrew Israelites for example. You probably are not familiar with them. Take a visit to YouTube.

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A lady who is a descendant of Jacob, and is a Christian, has attended Bible study in my home.
My wife and I have spent Bible study time in her home.

My wife and I also contribute to the ministry of Sam Nadler and his wife Miriam. Sam is a Messianic Jew whose ministry is known as "Word of Messiah".
I had the pleasure of speaking to Sam when he gave a program at a local church.
Their ministry specializes in evangelizing the Jewish people.


I am on a first name basis with a gentleman who is a Rabbi in a local Messianic congregation. He is a descendant of Jacob.

Are those the Hebrew Israelites you are talking about?

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BABerean2 said:

I am a member of the Church of Jesus Christ, which is made up of all those who have been redeemed by the Blood of the Son of God.

I am not a member of the local church body of Asia Minor which is being addressed in chapter 3 of the Book of Revelation.
Nor am I a member of any local church body in the modern United States city of Philadelphia.
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Are you an " heir of the promises to Abraham, by faith"?
So am I.
I am also a married female, Gentile, born again in Christ, water baptized, Holy Spirit baptized, tongues speaking, tongues singing, mother and wife; but I am also an heir to the promises God gave to the Church of brotherly love.

I am an heir to all the promises of God in Christ Jesus.

BABerean2 said:

Then the Apostle Paul must have been a little confused in the verses below, where he makes it clear that being a Jew is not about one's bloodline.

Rom 2:28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:

Rom 2:29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God....

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Paul said God has made all nations of one blood, so how could a Jew have a different bloodline than a Gentile?
It's about God's election and promises, and the tribes of the nations can be redeemed along with the elect of Jacob's seed, over whom the LORD invoked His own New Man name and gave to Jacob/Israel's seed his Living Oracles....
We Gentiles get in on the promises in this age of the Church, but after we are removed from the earth, the Glory goes with us, the Church [the praying and watching Church] and the Glory does not return until He returns in the Person of God the Son, who enters the Millennial Temple in Jerusalem, as pr Ezekiel.

Paul was teaching from the Law and the prophets, where God Himself taught that the circumcision of the heart was what counted, and outward show counted for naught and he that did not keep His Law would be cut off from Israel -Did you not know that? -for his heart was in unbelief.

Deu 30:6 And the LORD thy God will circumcise thine heart, and the heart of thy seed, to love the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul, that thou mayest live.

Jer 4:4 Circumcise yourselves to the LORD, and take away the foreskins of your heart, ye men of Judah and inhabitants of Jerusalem: lest my fury come forth like fire, and burn that none can quench it, because of the evil of your doings.

Eze 11:19 And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
The end goal of the Law is Christ....


Paul taught nothing new. He only spoke from what was already written, as Jesus Himself did when He walked the earth in His Jewish, New Man, flesh.
Jesus still is a Jew, as Paul is, by natural birth. Paul was not cut off from the natural Tree, "Israel", as an unbelieving branch when the Messiah revealed Himself to him, but He embraced His Messiah, and was, as He said, a Jew of Jews.