How does one come to believe something?

Davian said:

I read it again. If I imagine that unidentified flying objects are actually extraterrestrial aliens visiting Earth, it does not establish that as reality, or as a possibility. How does that not compare to your statement?

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I didn't say anything about imagining, you did.

Wayne R. said:

I didn't say anything about imagining, you did.

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I am asking, how am I to know that you have not simply imagined this thing that you believe in?

Davian said:

I do not claim to know what you believe in, but if you cannot, in some way, demonstrate that it is more than something you have simply imagined, what else am I to conclude?

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LOL. You can conclude that the self-blindfolded will always claim "imagination" when the sighted speak about what they see.

Wayne R. said:

LOL. You can conclude that the self-blindfolded will always claim "imagination" when the sighted speak about what they see.

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Claim to see, to be clear.

lumberjohn said:

So what justifies using belief in the Christian God as the "starting point"? Why not belief in the gods of the Hindus or the Romans or that cult that popped up last week in Peoria? Or, better yet, why not take a neutral position, waiting until the evidence supporting each can be evaluated? This is what atheists do. You haven't made a compelling argument for a different approach.

As far as I can see, your reasons are entirely prudential. But unless you have a personal genie at your disposal, reality does not conform to your wishes or desires.

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==== Where did I say the Christian God? I just said, by the logic, one God. This could be Christian, Jewish, Muslim, or other. Why not other gods? Because more than one ultimate is a contradiction. My "neutral" is logic.

So, you're waiting for (physical, scientific) evidence of God? Good luck! But I'm always optimistic -- maybe God'll knock you down like Paul, or completely out, before you believe? Or, are you just too stubborn for even this?

Compelling argument? Patience, patience, donkey, I've just started! ;-) Oh yes, I'll be talking reality also. To kick this off -- is a mental concept a reality? Does it really exist?

Davian said:

Claim to see, to be clear.

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To be clear: I see what I see and know what I know. You can claim some sort of omnipitance to claim otherwise, but that's just the blindfold talking.

Wayne R. said:

To be clear: I see what I see and know what I know.

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I do not dispute that you believe you see or know these things.

You can claim some sort of omnipitance to claim otherwise, but that's just the blindfold talking.

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I do not make that claim. I am asking, how am I to know that you have not simply imagined this thing that you believe in? Can you not address this question?

Hey All -- esp. atheists, agnostics, humanists, and seekers, my post #187 is for you!

Davian said:

I do not dispute what you claim to see or know.
I do not make that claim. I am asking, how am I to know that you have not simply imagined this thing that you believe in? Can you not address this question?

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Sure I can. But you obviously have your mind made up. You mock what you don't respect or even know anything about. You're not interested in what or why I believe, you're only interested in attempting to disprove it, which is impossible. That's what antitheists do, they argue. For the open minded there's plenty of discussion, but why discuss colors with the willfully blind?

Joshua260 said:

There was a thread a while back entitled "Belief not a choice?" and several atheists in that thread insisted that people only come to believe things by evaluating evidence. So I thought I'd extend that into a syllogism and see if it floats.

1. People only come to believe something by evaluating evidence.
2. People who are Christians believe that God exists.
3. Therefore, People who are Christians only came to believe that God exists by evaluating evidence.

Is the above a sound argument? If not, why not?

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We live our lives through experience and we evaluate things based on how good we think they will be for us.
Very few people make the change from secularist to Christian with out a life altering event happening first.
Very rare, very Rarely will someone pick up the bible and be converted on the basis of reading the bible alone.
Most people become Christians with out knowing what the bible said, due to what I said about life altering events.
Sorry, this isnt turning out to be one of my best post.

No one comes to Jesus unless they're evaluating their life because something tragic happened, and most times, even then they have to be convinced that they should be praying to Jesus or talking to Jesus or asking people to pray on their behalf.
There has to be a catalyst that brings people to Jesus in the first place.
You don't just sit down and think, I guess I'll read the bible to see if its true and if it is I'll fancy being a Christian.

I really dont understand the concept then of what youre trying to say above and I believe that if you're going to want to evaluate the evidence based out of the bible, then this conversation will go poorly for you, because secularist do not have the ability to comprehend the word the way a Christian does, and I also believe that we as Christians lack the wording to describe it to them so that they can understand, because Jesus wanted it that way.

But I do believe that you can show an overwhelming amount of evidence that supports what I said above, because just about every Christian who wasn't raised to be one has a testimony about how they became a Christian and what they went through before they met Christ and how they met Christ.
The bible calls these people, "witnesses".

Davian said:

I am asking, how am I to know that you have not simply imagined this thing that you believe in?

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Psalm 81:12
"So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices."

I believe that even if Jesus gave you something that undeniably said Jesus is God, you would deny it because you cant deny who you are.

You can not deny your persona and who you are and if you aren't someone who will follow Jesus then it doesn't matter what you see, hear, touch or feel. You're going to disbelieve it for your own sake.

Wayne R. said:

Sure I can. <snip excuses>

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Let me know when you are done making excuses for why you can't.

Mattao said:

Psalm 81:12
"So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices."

I believe that even if Jesus gave you something that undeniably said Jesus is God, you would deny it because you cant deny who you are.

You can not deny your persona and who you are and if you aren't someone who will follow Jesus then it doesn't matter what you see, hear, touch or feel. You're going to disbelieve it for your own sake.

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You are telling me what I am thinking? Did you buy one of those cheap gadgets at mall?

I would ask for your money back on that thing.

Davian said:

You are telling me what I am thinking? Did you buy one of those cheap gadgets at mall?

I would ask for your money back on that thing.

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No, I am repeating what you're saying.
You're saying that you cant take his word on its own standing. At least thats what I'm getting everytime you ask how are you to know he simply didnt imagine God.

Unless you mean that your personality has nothing to do with why you ask the same question? but with a reply like the one you've given me here, I'd say it most assuredly has to do with your personality.
And now that the chances of us being on the same page are really good, maybe you can answer a question?
Could it be that you just dont want to be a Christian?

Wayne R. said:

Not hardly! I flip your comment back at you. The whole point is "ignorance".

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You have nothing to flip back at me.

jonesdon said:

So, you're waiting for (physical, scientific) evidence of God? Good luck! But I'm always optimistic -- maybe God'll knock you down like Paul, or completely out, before you believe? Or, are you just too stubborn for even this?

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I'm not waiting for anything. If God wants me to believe, he can present good evidence. In the meantime, I'll continue not believing. I'll use the exact same standards you use to assess all religions other than Christianity.

Mattao said:

No, I am repeating what you're saying.

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Except where you were telling me - quite inaccurately - what I was thinking.

You're saying that you cant take his word on its own standing. At least thats what I'm getting everytime you ask how are you to know he simply didnt imagine God.

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I can't. Why should I? Do you take at face value claims of extraterrestrial alien visitations, or stories of Bigfoot?

Unless you mean that your personality has nothing to do with why you ask the same question?

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It does not. I ask the same question as it was not directly answered the first time. It is his choice to answer, evade, or ignore.

but with a reply like the one you've given me here, I'd say it most assuredly has to do with your personality.

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You can say it, but if you persist I would say that attacking another member's character would be in violation of this site's rules.

And now that the chances of us being on the same page are really good, maybe you can answer a question?
Could it be that you just dont want to be a Christian?

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I had not considered that option. I explore reality, and on this site I learn about religious people.

Davian said:

Except where you were telling me - quite inaccurately - what I was thinking.

I can't. Why should I? Do you take at face value claims of extraterrestrial alien visitations, or stories of Bigfoot?

It does not. I ask the same question as it was not directly answered the first time. It is his choice to answer, evade, or ignore.

You can say it, but if you persist I would say that attacking another member's character would be in violation of this site's rules.

I had not considered that option. I explore reality, and on this site I learn about religious people.

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You sound like someone who has absolutely no experience in life.
You by chance wouldnt happen to be a child or someone just starting college?

Mattao said:

You sound like someone who has absolutely no experience in life.
You by chance wouldnt happen to be a child or someone just starting college?

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No. Why would that make a difference?

Davian said:

No. Why would that make a difference?

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Sure.
It would account for your response to me, as if you had no idea what I was saying, and also because you have to have had experiences in life to know that things like this statement by you, "I had not considered that option. I explore reality, and on this site I learn about religious people." extremely arrogant or ignorant or both.

And then you insist that my statements arent what I say they are, when only a child would do such things.
I'm genuinely not trying to confuse you and you make it sound as if that's exactly what Im doing, and on top of that you keep backing my statement up about your personality by doing things, this last statement you made, "I had not considered that option. I explore reality, and on this site I learn about religious people." totally sounds as if you put yourself above Christians, which is why I said its arrogant and or ignorant.
And that statement all by itself even makes the scripture I quoted more accurate.

Psalm 81:12
"So I gave them over to their stubborn hearts to follow their own devices."

So it really does make a difference because as a mature adult it has more significance in that it's more genuine because you have a better chance of understanding what you said, and how arrogant it is to say such a thing.
But as a child, you'd just look uneducated and inexperienced.