Pope Francis' Israeli/Palestinian Peace Treaty

graceandpeace said:

The modern nation of Israel is a secular invention that happens to share its name with something from the Bible. That's it.

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False. Although the government and a lot of the citizenship is indeed secular. The majority of Israelites will unfortunately have to find out the truth the hard way.

graceandpeace said:

The record is appalling. It's an unfortunate fact. Here it is again:

https://www.amnesty.org/en/countrie.../israel-and-occupied-palestinian-territories/

Another source:

http://www.hrw.org/world-report/2015/country-chapters/israel-and-palestine

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I've read all of that before and find it laughable. Their bias is obvious. Their anti-Semitism is disturbing.

I'm not saying that Israelis cannot be evil or mean or violate human rights because they do just not to the level these reports show. There are evil people everywhere, but from my research and personal life experiences the general makeup of the Israelites as a nation is not one of extreme human rights violators.

God has a Covenant with the Jewish people - He gave Israel to them and the Bible says FOREVER.

Multiple human rights violations, documented by reputable organizations, being dismissed as "laughable" - this is unacceptable & deeply anti-Christian to me. Therefore, I can no longer engage in this particular conversation.

graceandpeace said:

Multiple human rights violations, documented by reputable organizations, being dismissed as "laughable" - this is unacceptable & deeply anti-Christian to me. Therefore, I can no longer engage in this particular conversation.

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Then go your own way in ignorance. Every country has human rights violations, even the USA. The innocents dying are not laughable but blaming the Israelis for their deaths is indeed laughable. The Muslims use their own innocent as shields. They are a cult of death and death is what they bring about. Their children suffer because of their parents and learn hate from an early age. How do you break the cycle? Blame Israel? Look at the death cult that is prevalent in the area for the source of the death. Why is it so hard to understand they HATE Israel and would sacrifice their own children to bring about their destruction. Who do you think Mohammad beheaded first in large numbers? Israelites! That's who! Nothing's changed. The majority of Islam would cheer in the streets if all Jews were exterminated off the face of the Earth. Sad thing is 6 million + Jews will die soon enough and the Muslims still won't be satisfied.

Slappi said:

False. Although the government and a lot of the citizenship is indeed secular. The majority of Israelites will unfortunately have to find out the truth the hard way.



I've read all of that before and find it laughable. Their bias is obvious. Their anti-Semitism is disturbing.

I'm not saying that Israelis cannot be evil or mean or violate human rights because they do just not to the level these reports show. There are evil people everywhere, but from my research and personal life experiences the general makeup of the Israelites as a nation is not one of extreme human rights violators.

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Isn't that how it always ends up? The people we don't like are always represented by the worst examples we can find and any evidence of people not like that is dismissed as "just a fluke!" but the people we do like are represented by the best people we can find and any bad thing they do is swept under the rug as "well there are bad people in any group!"
tulc(don't forget to suggest anyone who doesn't agree that Israel is always right does so because of antisemitism)

ViaCrucis said:

So where would you have your Christian brothers and sisters in the West Bank and Gaza go? Perhaps if you are a land owner you might invite them to come live on your land and offer them housing? Paying for their transport also?

-CryptoLutheran

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Oh, please tell us more about how much you care about the Christians in Judea and Samaria.....
You wouldn't give a flying fiddlestick if you couldn't use them as bullet points for attacking Israel.

There is no place safer or more free for Christians in the Middle East, than areas under Israel's control. This is fact.

tulc said:

tulc(don't forget to suggest anyone who doesn't agree that Israel is always right does so because of antisemitism)

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There are no people who thinks that everything the state of Israel does is always right.

RhaegarTargaryen(is getting tired of your strawmen, even if you're not)

for those of you who say that God gave this land to the Jews and that is that

what does Romans 2 say about who is to be counted as a Jew?
I am thinking of verses 17-29 specifically

also, in the Old Testament, from what I have read, dominion over the land was always contingent on being faithful to God
when the Jews were no longer faithful, they would get invaded after which they would either live as a vassal state or suffer exile

are modern Jews faithful to God?
well if you think Jesus is God..... that becomes a super tough question....
or maybe not so tough

you say there is no safer place for Christians in the Middle East besides Israel

have you heard of Lebanon? that is a safe place for Christians

RhaegarTargaryen said:

There are no people who thinks that everything the state of Israel does is always right.

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Nice! Can you name 4 things Israel has done wrong? (without making an excuse for them doing so plz)

RhaegarTargaryen(is getting tired of your strawmen, even if you're not)

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I'm not aware of having made any so far, so I'll try and keep up the good work...
tulc(is going to need more coffee soon)

Rhamiel said:

well the state legislations in the Confederate States voted to remove themselves from the USA
why do you think this was not legitimate?

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States rights were guaranteed Constitutionally. It was the act of making slavery illegal that tipped the boat in favor of the wealth, and power in the Northern States, and not the monetarily disadvantaged Southern States, and the Pope's blessing, however . I was just making a point that the Pope obviously is not the end all be all of civilization. Jesus/The God of Israel is the end all be all. If the Pope said "Gay" marriage is ok, I would not follow the Pope, because my Bible in the First Testament, and in The Book Of Roman's, spoken at Rome, in front of Romans, near Vatican City in which the Pope's main bedroom is, says it is not an ok thing to recognize.

well slavery was still legal when the Southern States broke away, and there was nothing in the Constitution that said a State could not vote to break away from the Union
so if there was no Constitutional Law against breaking away, and the States Legislature voted to break away, why was that not legal?

the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about States rights
speaking of slavery
do you know where slavery was not legal?
Catholic France
and
Catholic Spain

the USA had slavery long after the Catholic countries had done away with it
so it is not really about the Pope being pro-slavery
not sure what political or philosophical ideas made him recognize the Confederacy

ok, lets put it this way
was it right for the 13 Colonies to break away from England? if so, why? if not, why not?
how was this different then Palestine wanting to be a state?

RhaegarTargaryen said:

Oh, please tell us more about how much you care about the Christians in Judea and Samaria.....
You wouldn't give a flying fiddlestick if you couldn't use them as bullet points for attacking Israel

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You seem to be under the presumption that I'm some kind of antisemitic, anti-Israel bigot. Perhaps instead of making false opinions about me you actually engage with things I've actually said instead of things you seem to imagine I've said.

Because so far here are some things I've said in this thread:

1) That Palestinians deserve a right to be treated with dignity and respect, not as sub-human parasites.

2) That culpability of violence belongs to both sides in the conflict.

3) That Jews, Christians, and Muslims can and have peacefully coexisted in the region without problem.

4) That Israel is illegally occupying territory (because it is).

5) That there is no justification for extremist violence and attitudes such as, e.g., Hamas.

6) That average Palestinians and average Israelis want peace, but hardliners and extremists continue to cause and instigate further problem.

But, no, do go on about how I'm a raving antisemite.

There is no place safer or more free for Christians in the Middle East, than areas under Israel's control. This is fact

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And yet Israel falls incredibly short. - http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...tment-israel-is-not-a-tolerant-society-1.4683

-CryptoLutheran

I do not think anyone on this thread is saying that Israel does not have the right to exist as a state

Israel has as much right as the USA or France or any other country to exist

but we think that Palestine has as much a right to exist as Israel or the USA or France

Rhamiel said:

I do not think anyone on this thread is saying that Israel does not have the right to exist as a state

Israel has as much right as the USA or France or any other country to exist

but we think that Palestine has as much a right to exist as Israel or the USA or France

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Bingo.

The Palestinians have as much a right to self-rule and self-determination as Israel or any other sovereign nation of people on the planet. That also means that Israel has the right to exist, to self-rule, and self-determination as a people and nation.

-CryptoLutheran

Rhamiel said:

well slavery was still legal when the Southern States broke away, and there was nothing in the Constitution that said a State could not vote to break away from the Union
so if there was no Constitutional Law against breaking away, and the States Legislature voted to break away, why was that not legal?

the Civil War was not about slavery, it was about States rights
speaking of slavery
do you know where slavery was not legal?
Catholic France
and
Catholic Spain

the USA had slavery long after the Catholic countries had done away with it
so it is not really about the Pope being pro-slavery
not sure what political or philosophical ideas made him recognize the Confederacy

ok, lets put it this way
was it right for the 13 Colonies to break away from England? if so, why? if not, why not?
how was this different then Palestine wanting to be a state?

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"Palestinians" are Arabs. They already have their own Country called Saudi Arabia, and Egypt. Israel extends to the sea, in which the Arabs have taken over the coastline of " Israeli" Territory in the Gaza strip. Why would Egypt, or Saudi Arabia want to let these so called "Palestinians" back home, when they forced them militarily to live in Israel, and be subject to decades of fighting with Israel? Those "Palestinians" are dirt poor (Arabs) and are really, really very upset and hurt by their relatives back home!

The Lone Ranger said:

"Palestinians" are Arabs. They already have their own Country called Saudi Arabia, and Egypt.

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Italians are Europeans, they already have their own country France, and Germany.

-CryptoLutheran

or you could argue that all white people should leave the USA because we have our own countries in Europe
leave the USA to the Native Americans.....

I do not advocate that
but I would like to hear what the anti-Palestinian crowd thinks on that

Rhamiel said:

or you could argue that all white people should leave the USA because we have our own countries in Europe
leave the USA to the Native Americans.....

I do not advocate that
but I would like to hear what the anti-Palestinian crowd thinks on that

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It's more than that though. The Palestinians, as a people, have a complex history in the land. Theirs includes Greek, Samaritan, Jewish, Arab, and European ancestry. Like most people groups on the face of the planet there is no such thing as a pure bloodline (such things don't exist), but rather are a people because they determine themselves to be a people.

There was no such thing as an English people until the unification of the Anglo-Saxon kingdoms. And who are these English people? A complex people with Celtic (Brythonic), Roman, Anglo-Saxon, Viking, and Norman French ancestry and influence; and today that complexity grows through immigration and assimilation into English culture. Further all the constituent groups I mentioned above are not themselves monolithic people groups. The Celts are a people of complex history and migration, who long had invaded and settled themselves and entrenched themselves among the groups of people who lived on the island before them. Anglo-Saxons are not a single people group but several Germanic peoples--Angles, Saxons, Jutes, etc--who had settled into Northern Europe from elsewhere during the great migration period of late antiquity. Vikings were northern European/Scandinavian peoples who, like the above, did not have a monolithic history. The Normans were the "north men" of France, the result of earlier Viking invasions and eventual settling along the north of France who assimilated into the emerging French culture of the middle ages.

Peoplehood is not magical or determined somehow by some imaginary pure genetic heritage or what not. It is the right of self-determination among a people who agree that they are a people through a sharing of historical and cultural experiences. All that is required for the Palestinians to define themselves as a Palestinian people is for them to determine for themselves that they are a Palestinian people.

-CryptoLutheran

Rhamiel said:

or you could argue that all white people should leave the USA because we have our own countries in Europe
leave the USA to the Native Americans.....

I do not advocate that
but I would like to hear what the anti-Palestinian crowd thinks on that

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No land on Earth is granted by God to anyone, except the Jews in Israel. East of that was where Ishmael was to go.

The Lone Ranger said:

No land on Earth is granted by God to anyone, except the Jews in Israel.

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Romans 2:28-29
28 One is not a Jew outwardly. True circumcision is not outward, in the flesh. 29 Rather, one is a Jew inwardly, and circumcision is of the heart, in the spirit, not the letter; his praise is not from human beings but from God

when you read the Old Testament
when the Jews were faithful to God, they received blessings
when there were not faithful to God, they would get invaded, and they would live as a vassal state or they would be exiled

are modern Jews faithful to God?
well they do not accept Jesus as their Lord
so it seems like they have given up any blessing that they might have had

if you read the Old Testament, Israel is the "people of God"
it never says that God has two sets of chosen people

the people who are faithful to God are now found in the Christian Church which is One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic in nature